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The role of mitochondrial dysfunctions due to oxidative and nitrosative stress...

Discussion in 'Latest ME/CFS Research' started by Firestormm, Jul 11, 2013.

  1. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

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    LaurieL, Valentijn and Emootje like this.
  2. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    "The role of exercise therapy in restoring mitochondrial dysfunction remains to be explored, and provides important avenues for future research in this area."

    Really?
  3. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

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    I did wonder who would highlight this aspect of it first :) :)

    Way I see it is that nobody has actually looked at this for ME have they? At least I suppose these authors are leaving it open. They aren't saying - 'GET will restore any dysfunction'. And if for example exercise is not restoring any presumed dysfunction it is important to understand why this might be... or something.

    Here's what ME/CFS Evolving Science (Facebook) had to say - out of interest and unconnected to your comment/concern/issue:

    and

    I don't know who 'Evolving Science' are or who is answering the questions here. I think they originate in Belgium? Not sure. Might be a collaboration with other patients from across the pond. Anyway, I often 'tap' into them for new research articles. Good source :)
  4. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    I know what happened in the past.
  5. Firestormm

    Firestormm Guest

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    Have you read or hear of any papers linking mitochondria to ME and exercise as a therapy for restoration? Thanks Ian :)
  6. lansbergen

    lansbergen Senior Member

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    No
  7. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I agree with that. I can't help wondering whether 'antioxidants' are just an erroneous modern obsession, like the 'salt and fat are bad' one.

    I know that biochemistry is complex, but there seems to be evidence that we have a problem with oxygen utilisation, and this could be due to acidosis (although whenever I try a search on this I get hits that discuss the reverse causation). Acidic fluids are characterised by H+ ions, so it would perhaps make more sense to be neutralising these, which is what I am attempting to do.

    I have not studied the biochemistry of reactive oxygen species but I would be concerned about anything that reduced overall oxygen in cells and tissues.

    As a vegan who consumes a lot of fresh veg, etc., and takes multivitamin supplements and other supplements whose properties include antioxidant ones, I feel that it is unlikely that I am deficient in antioxidants.
  8. Gijs

    Gijs Senior Member

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    I think the PH value (high and low) and reduced supply of oxygen can be a primary problem in this disease. When thePH levels are not normal you get infections and reactivation. PH is everywhere in the body and plays a major rol controlling the internal environment. Maybe a metabolic problem of handling PH is the course of ME.
  9. peggy-sue

    peggy-sue

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    It has been found that cultured muscle cells produce lactic acid at 20 times the "normal" rate in PWME in reponse to "exercise".
    We can't seem to get into utilising aerobic metabolism, but are stuck in anaerobic mode the whole time.

    As the cells were cultured, it has to be something which can be passed on genetically. A retrovirus in the mitochondria would be passed on in this way.

    Does this fit in?

    (but stuff doing exercise to enhance mito. function! MY evidence, gathered personally on a daily basis for over 10 years, proves exercise makes me ill and puts me into vile payback.)
  10. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    It can be hard to untangle cause and effect, but abnormal carbohydrate metabolism can be a source of low pH, and the leaky gut diet corrects this.

    But the muscle and nerve sources of acidosis are less clear, to me at least. Overexertion causes acidosis, but is this due to inability to use oxygen normally, hence the production and use of lactate instead, or is the lactate production the cause of the oxygen-utilisation problem, or is it both - a vicious cycle?
  11. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I don't think it has to be inherited, although there may be a genetic predisposition in at least some cases. Almost all illnesses are due to a combination of inherited factors and acquired ones.

    But there is now known to be more than one kind of inherited genetic abnormality - those in the genome and those in the epigenome. There is little or nothing we can do about the former, other than gene therapy (which is not very succesful). But there seems to be a lot we can do about the epigenome through lifestyle changes, such as diet.

    The in vitro finding is very interesting, as it shows that there is something wrong with the cells themselves, not just the environment in which they are operating.
  12. biophile

    biophile Places I'd rather be.

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    CBT/GET proponents tend to believe that any mitochondrial changes are due to deconditioning and are reversible with exercise. AFAIK the authors of this paper are proponents of rehabilitative approaches, including CBT/GET, so yes, it is possible they believe that GET could restore any dysfunction. I am fairly certain at least some of them including Nijs have signed off on papers which state that the significant benefits of CBT/GET are undeniable or words to that effect. I guess we would need to read the full text to better understand what they mean in this recent paper.

    It is certainly understandable why patients are generally concerned that the exercise fad manages a mention in just about every published paper on ME/CFS no matter the main subject of the paper, which itself is also understandable because researchers tend to put their work in conservative context with popular attitudes found in their own field. If evil spirits or the flying spaghetti monster were seriously believed to play a role, you can be sure that many researchers, especially those sympathetic to them, would be at least be making an uncritical passing comment about it in their papers.

    There are already Phase 1 and Phase 2 trials looking into combining mitochondrial nutraceuticals and graded exercise:

    http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01872351
    http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT01471652
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  13. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Have evil spirits and the flying spaghetti monster been disproved as causes? Should I cross them off my list of credible theories? :snigger:
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