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The Role of Cytokines in Muscle Fatigue in Patients with Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

Gijs

Senior Member
Messages
691
A sub-group of patients with CFS may have low level inflammation, only 15%? Is this 'big' news. I don't think so.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
A sub-group of patients with CFS may have low level inflammation, only 15%? Is this 'big' news. I don't think so.

To my mind it is news because it is much more specific than that. It is specifically after exercise, as I understand it. And it is a mediator specifically chosen to test a hypothesis, measured in blinded samples by a laboratory that takes care to make sure their data are solid. It may be nothing more than a formal validation of what is known anecdotally but that is a huge step forward in ME research. All we really need in ME research is for all these things that 'everybody knows' to be demonstrated with a level of quality control that allows us to build on them as established biomarkers. To be honest I read dozens of ME research papers each month and for most of them by the end of the abstract I know that I am not going to have confidence in the findings. This looks plausible.
 
Messages
91
"One problem is where do you get these 'deconditioned healthy controls' ?"

Healthy sedentary controls are deconditioned healthy controls. Or to use another word "couch potatoes". These were the deconditioned healthy people used by professor VanNess in his 2 day exercise testing studies
 

lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512
If ME muscle in fact is not deconditioned but works just as well as healthy muscle when stimulated involuntarily that may be more interesting than trying to find a valid 'deconditioned' comparator.

Anybody thought of to low LIF for proper muscle and nerve repair?
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
I'm sorry, but am I the only one who thinks the narrative - the copy - straddles a fence?
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
"One problem is where do you get these 'deconditioned healthy controls' ?"

Healthy sedentary controls are deconditioned healthy controls. Or to use another word "couch potatoes". These were the deconditioned healthy people used by professor VanNess in his 2 day exercise testing studies

You can have a sedentary lifestyle (as much of the UK population now does) but this does not automatically equate to what scientific opinion would regard as being deconditioned
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
There is a really important point here about muscle research in general which I hope people will not miss.

This is that high quality research is at long last being carried out into the role of muscle abnormalities and mitochondrial dysfunction in ME/CFS - most of it being done here in the UK and being funded by the charity sector (and in this case co-funded by the MRC.

It is now over 30 years since I personally got involved with muscle research by working with Prof George Radda at Oxford on the MRS study that demonstrated early and excesive lactic acidosis in my own skeletal muscle during exercise:

Lancet, 1984 Jun 23;1(8391):1367-9.
Excessive intracellular acidosis of skeletal muscle on exercise in a patient with a post-viral exhaustion/fatigue syndrome. A 31P nuclear magnetic resonance study.
Abstract
A patient with prolonged post-viral exhaustion and excessive fatigue was examined by 31P nuclear magnetic resonance. During exercise, muscles of the forearm demonstrated abnormally early intracellular acidosis for the exercise performed. This was out of proportion to the associated changes in high-energy phosphates. This may represent excessive lactic acid formation resulting from a disorder of metabolic regulation. The metabolic abnormality in this patient could not have been demonstrated by traditional diagnostic techniques.

This was done in conjunction with removing a good slice of thigh muscle for electron microscopy - which revealed significant structural abnormalities in the mitochondria under electron miscroscopy.

Interestingly, at the time, I had been told by leading UK muscle expert, Professor John Morgan Hughes at Queens Square in London, that I probably had a post infectious mitochondrial myopathy. This was before I saw Dr Melvin Ramsay at the Royal Free....

Sadly, despite these findings being published in The Lancet, this was then followed by a prolonged absence of any significant muscle research taking place.

International medical opinion was persuaded that muscle fatigue and weakness in ME/CFS was due to inactivity and deconditioning. GET was therefore the safe and effective answer.

More recently, Julia Newton et al in Newcastle have started to look at muscle again, confirmed the metabolic dysfunction, and are now carrying out other research involving muscle.

The MEA Ramsay Research Fund will shortly be funding three studies involving muscle and mitochondria.

These results from Anne McArdle et al are preliminary, and this component of the study is providing the first evidence that there appears to be a cytokine mediated inflammatory component involving skeletal muscle.

So I think these findings are potentially important and I hope there will be more to interest people when the whole study is finished and published.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
Scientific opinion - what is that?

I would define scientific opinion as a judgment, viewpoint, or statement about matters commonly considered to be subjective, i.e. based on that which is less than absolutely certain, and is the result of interpretation of what evidence is available at the time.
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
Cool. And bravo. But don't equivocate. In my little voice, I would say speak your core message loudly. Avoid anything that could be misinterpreted or used against your cause, or those you represent.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
Physical deconditioning in ME/CFS - from the dim and distant past

Note the conclusion!

Psychol Med. 2001 Jan;31(1):107-14.
Is physical deconditioning a perpetuating factor in chronic fatigue syndrome? A controlled study on maximal exercise performance and relations with fatigue, impairment and physical activity.
Bazelmans E1, Bleijenberg G, Van Der Meer JW, Folgering H.
Author information

Abstract
BACKGROUND:
Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) patients often complain that physical exertion produces an increase of complaints, leading to a greater need for rest and more time spent in bed. It has been suggested that this is due to a bad physical fitness and that physical deconditioning is a perpetuating factor in CFS. Until now, studies on physical deconditioning in CFS have shown inconsistent results.

METHODS:
Twenty CFS patients and 20 matched neighbourhood controls performed a maximal exercise test with incremental load. Heart rate, blood pressure, respiratory tidal volume, O2 saturation, O2 consumption, CO2 production, and blood-gas values of arterialized capillary blood were measured. Physical fitness was quantified as the difference between the actual and predicted ratios of maximal workload versus increase of heart rate. Fatigue, impairment and physical activity were assessed to study its relationship with physical fitness.

RESULTS:
There were no statistically significant differences in physical fitness between CFS patients and their controls. Nine CFS patients had a better fitness than their control. A negative relationship between physical fitness and fatigue was found in both groups. For CFS patients a negative correlation between fitness and impairment and a positive correlation between fitness and physical activity was found as well. Finally, it was found that more CFS patients than controls did not achieve a physiological limitation at maximal exercise.

CONCLUSIONS:
Physical deconditioning does not seem a perpetuating factor in CFS.
 

lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512
More recently, Julia Newton et al in Newcastle have started to look at muscle again, confirmed the metabolic dysfunction, and are now carrying out other research involving muscle.

Maybe she can test LIF on her muscle cell culture?
 
Last edited:

RustyJ

Contaminated Cell Line 'RustyJ'
Messages
1,200
Location
Mackay, Aust
So, if this study is so great, will the MRC and its supporters take it to the next stage, with a bigger study? No probs getting money, but do they have the will? This is the ultimate test and would make this study sound better than just a PR exercise.
 

charles shepherd

Senior Member
Messages
2,239
So, if this study is so great, will the MRC and its supporters take it to the next stage, with a bigger study? No probs getting money, but do they have the will? This is the ultimate test and would make this study sound better than just a PR exercise.

The MRC has put over £200,000 into this study (the MEA RRF provided £30,000) and I'm sure the MRC would be very willing to consider a further research funding application if the final results are significant and the research group believe there is further work to do in relation to either the lab work or the assessment of therapeutic interventions that might be beneficial.

I don't know why you are referring to this as a PR exercise.

A research group have published some interesting preliminary results in a peer reviewed journal.

The abstract has been published and people are commenting on it……...
 

Bob

Senior Member
Messages
16,455
Location
England (south coast)
I don't really understand this study, without access to the full paper, but the following seems like it could potentially be interesting...
Earl et al. said:
Preliminary analyses showed that serum TNF-α was undetectable in 97% of HCs, whereas 15% of patients with CFS had detectable (4.4+/-0.18pg/ml) serum TNF-α.
 

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
Sadly, despite these findings being published in The Lancet, this was then followed by a prolonged absence of any significant muscle research taking place.
There has definitely been further work that supports this.

Skeletal muscle metabolism in the chronic fatigue syndrome. In vivo assessment by 31P nuclear magnetic resonance spectroscopy. Chest. 1992 Dec;102(6):1716-22.

"Patients with CFS and normal control subjects have similar skeletal muscle metabolic patterns during dynamic exercise and reach similar clinical and metabolic end points. However, CFS patients reach exhaustion much more rapidly than normal subjects, at which point they also have relatively reduced intracellular concentrations of ATP. These data suggest a defect of oxidative metabolism with a resultant acceleration of glycolysis in the working skeletal muscles of CFS patients. This metabolic defect may contribute to the reduced physical endurance of CFS patients."


Muscle fibre characteristics and lactate responses to exercise in chronic fatigue syndrome. J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry. 1998 Mar;64(3):362-7.

"Muscle histometry in patients with chronic fatigue syndrome generally did not show the changes expected as a result of inactivity. However, patients with abnormal lactate responses to exercise had a significantly lower proportion of mitochondria rich type 1 muscle fibres."


Heterogeneity in chronic fatigue syndrome: evidence from magnetic resonance spectroscopy of muscle. Neuromuscul Disord. 1998 May;8(3-4):204-9.

"We performed phosphorus magnetic resonance spectroscopy on forearm muscles of 10 SATET +ve patients, 9 SATET -ve patients and 13 sedentary volunteers. There were no differences in resting spectra between these groups but at the end of exercise, intracellular pH in the SATET +ve patients was significantly lower than in both the SATET -ve cases and controls (P < 0.03), and the SATET +ve patients also showed a significantly lower ATP synthesis rate during recovery (P < 0.01), indicating impaired mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation."


Enterovirus related metabolic myopathy: a postviral fatigue syndrome J Neurol Neurosurg Psychiatry. 2003 Oct; 74(10): 1382–1386.

"There is an association between abnormal lactate response to exercise, reflecting impaired muscle energy metabolism, and the presence of enterovirus sequences in muscle in a proportion of CFS patients."