1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Phoenix Rising Adds Two New Board Members
Mark Berry introduces the new President of Phoenix Rising, Dr. Gary Solomon, and welcomes Professor Jonathan Edwards to the Phoenix Rising Board of Directors.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. jepps

    jepps

    Messages:
    99
    Likes:
    45
    Austria
    Very interesting link, a summary of PHD, and above is a summary of the member Duck, 26.8.14 concerning SCFA´s, Glycolysis and candida:

    http://chriskresser.com/is-a-low-carb-diet-ruining-your-health

    According to Dr. Jaminet, for neurological issues (with BBB) we should eat ketogene with 200 carbs daily with lower amount of starches and much MCT-fats (because bacterias and viruses are in the brain, and ketogene starves bacterias and viruses), and for gut issues and pathogenes (Leaky Gut, candida and parasites) we should eat more carbs, about 400-600 carb cal. daily. The carbs come primarly from tubers or rice.

    Maybe it is a way, to eat low carb to diminish bacterias and viruses in the brain, and then start RS, fibres and probiotics/fermented nutrition to nourish the gut bacterias and to build up SCFA, which fights candida and parasites, and builds up immunity (and maybe other natural ways to fight candida+parasites), and then we can consume as much carbs, as Paul Jaminet and Chris Kresser recommend. I hope so.
     
  2. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

    Messages:
    174
    Likes:
    82
    Rocky Mountains
    Thanks - I took PS + probios last night as well as consumed some kava tea before bed to try dealing with some adrenalization that happens at night.

    I slept very soundly for a change, but wow, did I have *crazy* dreams. I woke up very confused as to whether I should still be trying to slay a wolf with my bare hands.
     
    Sasha likes this.
  3. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

    Messages:
    8,716
    Likes:
    7,981
    UK
    You're not called BadBadBear for nothing, then! :)
     
  4. jepps

    jepps

    Messages:
    99
    Likes:
    45
    Austria
    Here is the anwer to my question, what to to, when my gut reacts badly to to much carbs:

    http://chriskresser.com/is-a-low-carb-diet-ruining-your-health

    So it may be the right way to build up the gut with this supplements, and while the gut is healing, one is better able to digest starches.
     
    Sasha likes this.
  5. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

    Messages:
    520
    Likes:
    561
    Virginia
    The gout symptoms, I think, are noteworthy. To me, the reproducibility of these symptoms when taking certain prebiotics is compelling circumstantial evidence that this may be an effective therapy. There is certainly a mechanism by which resistant starch could do this. If the suppression of the purine metabolism in ME/CFS is designed to limit the production of inflammatory molecules and reactive oxygen and nitrogen species, I think this implies that the prebiotics and their effects on the microbiota have likely reduced the production of inflammatory mediators and your intrinsic ability to suppress the consequences of these free radicals has improved.

    So let's say we increased your purine metabolism, or at least the activity of xanthine oxidases which generates uric acid. One absolute consequence would be the increased production of superoxide and peroxynitrite. An increase in this part of the metabolism likely signifies that there is an increase in the ability to suppress superoxide radicals and peroxynitrite simply because ONOO levels will inhibit this reaction. Put another way, as peroxynitrite levels rise this down-regulates xanthine oxidase activity and all the byproducts of this reaction, including uric acid, are suppressed. This serves to reduce the demands on the entire antioxidant network and the dehydrogenase enzymes, in particular. The increased activity of XO would seemingly suggest that the prebiotics have reduced ONOO levels.

    The mechanism by which glyconutrients or resistant carbohydrates could result in an increase in uric acid likely involves the provision of SCFA's, particularly butyrate, where it is needed. Increases in butyrate would seemingly have the ability to influence every single consequences of enhanced purine metabolism that comes to mind. In fact, I think it perfectly fits this equation. I think it is also notable that while butyrate is taken up by the colonocytes, it is also principally utilized in the liver. It is certainly not coincidental that in humans, xanthine oxidase, which creates uric acid, is chiefly and almost exclusively expressed in the liver and intestinal tract.

    I too never experienced gout symptoms until I started experimenting with certain prebiotics and to a lesser extent some of the anaerobes I fermented. Last week i developed arthritic symptoms in my shoulder, which was unprecedented. Fortunately, it was very short-lived, unlike a true osteoarthritic condition, but these symptoms have compelled me to go slow. I've also noticed that my tolerance to caffeine (a methyl xanthine) has steadily risen over the last six months. This is very possibly an indication of improvement in this particular metabolic process as caffeine can reduce the activity of xanthine oxidase, thus its effects have become less noticeable.

    I have noted some warning signs that might precede what appears to be an increase in uric acid levels. I have days when my hands get very cold, and days when a little bit of caffeine has a very pronounced diuretic effect. With uric acid primarily excreted in urine, I think this is a compensatory measure. I think it would be prudent to temporarily back off the prebiotics a bit when symptoms of gout appear.

    I'm using small doses of PS + small doses of chitin-glucan.
     
    Sidereal and BadBadBear like this.
  6. jepps

    jepps

    Messages:
    99
    Likes:
    45
    Austria
    Does anybody know, whether PS counts for my carb intake? PS has app. 80% RS, and the rest could count for digestible starch?
     
  7. jepps

    jepps

    Messages:
    99
    Likes:
    45
    Austria
  8. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

    Messages:
    604
    Likes:
    473
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2014
  9. jepps

    jepps

    Messages:
    99
    Likes:
    45
    Austria
    You´re right, Paul Jaminet writes the same:

    http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2014/05/qa-fat-head-readers/

     
  10. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

    Messages:
    174
    Likes:
    82
    Rocky Mountains
    @jepps, thanks for digging into that. I was curious about the carb factor, too.

    I am getting ready to try larch fiber, does anyone know the recommended dose?

    I'd like to try decreasing the PS and see if the odd pain/stiffness in my left foot improves. I thought about cutting down to 1 TBSP PS per day, adding larch, and maybe some pectin fiber as well. I am using some psyllium fiber, too. I never used to tolerate it (it flared my IBS-C terribly) but it seems to be OK in small doses now.

    Would checking uric acid during my next blood test be useful to see if PS is causing gouty issues?
     
  11. jepps

    jepps

    Messages:
    99
    Likes:
    45
    Austria
    BadBadBear, I´m not yet a believer, because my (feminine:)) logic says, that when raw potatoe starch consists of 80% carbs, and app. 60-75% is RS, the rest must be not resistent, and ergo digestible starch:)

    I take 3 tsp LAG daily for 1 month, I began with 1 tsp for one week, then 3 tsp. It´s a good idea to cut down PS, to see, what LAG effects.
     
    BadBadBear likes this.
  12. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

    Messages:
    174
    Likes:
    82
    Rocky Mountains
    Could the rest of the matter be indigestible matter or something?? I suppose I could take some in the AM with water and see what BGL does. That should be the tell-tale sign of carb content.

    I cut down my PS by 1/2 last night and had almost no pain in my foot this morning. It seems almost too good to be true. I guess I am a (feminine) skeptic, too. :) I am trying 1/2 TBSP PS + 1/2 TBSP psyllium again tonight.

    I still had crazy dreams on the lesser PS dosage, so I'm going to assume it's working...
     
  13. Gemma

    Gemma

    Messages:
    32
    Likes:
    13
    Vegas, this is the most ineteresting thing I have read here. And you said: "As I have discussed before" which means there is something more...

    I have nothing to add to this, and I do not intend to.

    I wish good health to everybody.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 1, 2014
  14. jepps

    jepps

    Messages:
    99
    Likes:
    45
    Austria
    When you have crazy dreams, the PS works, Asklipia postet the very interesting link to Heisenburg´s blog:http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...t-the-key-weve-been-looking-for.26976/page-94 Post 1873, you know it certainly.

    The rest of PS must be in my opinion digestible.

    Here is something concerning LAG:
    http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art16104.asp

    and something abount the right amounts of Sugars:
    http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art16105.asp
    I wonder, whether the dosage of LAG counts for daily sugar dose, and therefore for daily carb dosage. Potentially yes, because is sugar, which we shall eat whith Nutrition, and it´s a glyconutrient.
     
  15. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

    Messages:
    8,716
    Likes:
    7,981
    UK
    I don't have vivid dreams (or dreams at all) with the RS. Does that mean something?
     
  16. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,483
    Likes:
    1,741
    East Coast, USA
    I'm looking for help. I react to PS no matter how I treat it, and plantain and banana flours make me nauseous. I've gained 10 pounds using lentils and parboiled rice as RS sources, and I don't know how to best support my gut now that I've mostly given these up. Unfortunately, I can only maintain my weight on a low carb diet.

    I've been taking prescript-assist and probiotic 3 for months, and I had been using the RS as a 'carrier' to the gut. I'm getting some seasonal allergies just now, but my wheat allergy seems to have disappeared. I don't have brain fog, my memory has improved somewhat, and I'm interested in socializing(!).

    I have but am not taking Larix (Eclectic) - how much would I work up to?

    My breakfast is 1c cooked rolled oats (not instant) + 1T chia seeds + 2T ground flax. When I eat rice, it's cooked-cooled-warmed parboiled.

    How can I (1) make sure the probiotics get to my gut, and (2) support their colonizing?
     
  17. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

    Messages:
    5,127
    Likes:
    3,398
    N. California
    @madietodd QUESTIONS: Are you still using any of the Wahl's dietary recommendations along with the RS? Or have you completely dropped the Wahl's diet?

    What form does Larix come in? I thought it was used as an anti-viral....?

    And also what is PS...that everyone keeps referring to? I don't want to have to search this really long thread to find out.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
  18. jepps

    jepps

    Messages:
    99
    Likes:
    45
    Austria
    I had vivid dreams in the beginning, then they stopped. But my stool showed no lactos and bacteries species and no bifidos before beginning RS+fibres, and after taking RS+fibres for 3 weeks the stool test shows normal levels of lactos and bacteries species, but no bifidos. Maybe candida eats the bifidos:) because candida and blastocystes show very high level.
    So you must not have vivid dreams, to see, if RS works.

    The lactos+bacteries did not increase during taking psyllium+probiotics, but they increase since I take RS+LAG+Inulin+FOS+pectine.
     
    Sasha likes this.
  19. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

    Messages:
    5,127
    Likes:
    3,398
    N. California
    What is Amazing Grass? and why did you choose L Plantarum?
     
  20. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,483
    Likes:
    1,741
    East Coast, USA
    PS is potato starch. I stopped Wahl's diet when I started resistant starch because I can only juggle one ball at a time.
    Larix is a trademark name for Eclectic Institute's larch. It's a powder.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page