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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. jepps

    jepps

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    I´m very sleepy since taking RS (3 tbsp) LAG (3 tsp) and other prebiotics (since 2 weeks). My eyes are very tired, and the dreams are vivid, and the flatulences smells not fine:confused:

    I have candida and parasites (I´m treating both), an alkaline pH in stool, the stooltest show very low bifidos and candida, sIgA shows zero.

    As I was in a lethargy when I ate carbs, I stopped carbs last December. I plan to eat more RS-rice and RS- potatoes, but I´m waiting, until don´t have no longer reactions to RS and fibres.

    Interesting for me is my pH of the urine: it was the whole day acid. But since taking RS, my pH of the urine is in balance: acid in the morning, and alkaline or acide over the day.
     
    Alea Ishikawa likes this.
  2. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    jepps likes this.
  3. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    Count me in as having mild gout symptoms w/ PS. I have never had gout before, but my mom used to get it and I am all too familiar with the symptoms... At first it was pain in the arch of my foot for the last week, then last night I had shooting pains in the big toe. Earlier in the evening we had dinner out (I had steak and a margarita, I guess proverbially shoot myself in the foot there). The pain in the big toe quieted down after a bit, thankfully.

    I don't know if this means my protein digestion is finally improving from PS and that is unmasking gout, or if something else is going on that is causing it. I do have a feeling it's related to the PS, though.

    I am currently taking ~3 TBSP per day spread into 3 doses, plus consuming ~1 TBSP daily of Dandy Blend which has chicory and dandelion.
     
    Sasha likes this.
  4. Aileen

    Aileen Senior Member

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    Moving this quote from the selenium thread [here]
    @adreno what symptoms did you have that indicated your thyroid was functioning better?

    Since starting RS I have noticed an uncomfortable sensation in my throat and neck. It is at the front across where the thyroid lies and up higher underneath my chin from ear to ear including the glands. It's not pain, more like inflammation perhaps.

    Has anyone else had anything similar?
     
  5. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    @Aileen
    Yes. I found that my hypothyroid symptoms worsened on PS ie I felt colder and my system seemed to be slowed down which I noticed when I passed urine (it can out slower). I assumed that my immune system had been stimulated which therefore increased the autoimmune attack on my thyroid.
     
  6. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Same here, with some hypothyroid symptoms.
    At one point it was quite uncomfortable, and the neck and head were in an awkward position, painful too.
    After a while this went away, coming back a few times with decreasing intensity. Every time there were pimples appearing along the carotids, under the ears, one the nape and on top of shoulders, pain in the teeth with some bleeding sometimes.
    The pimples got smaller every time.
    Now for the last weeks, nothing is happening, except sometimes a vague puffiness or just a strange choking feeling in the thyroid.
    I think this must be some beastie living there which is being dislodged.
    At the moment all is fine. The fight has moved along to the thymus and top of the lungs I feel. My head feels free on the neck and I had to change my bike helmet because it has become too big.
    Be well!
    Asklipia
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2014
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  7. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    Yes, I often have this, too. It seems to recede at times, and then it returns. I have swollen glands at times, and it feels almost like a lump in my throat or a mildly sore throat.

    I am about 6 weeks into the RS challenge. I am on T3, so I don't notice whether my thyroid seems to be up or down regulated through this.

    My gouty feeling has been better, which I am thankful for. I have been drinking some black cherry juice at night hoping it will prevent uric acid buildup.
     
    Aileen likes this.
  8. jepps

    jepps

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    I´m reading the whole long thread a second time, to understand as much as possible of the (a great thank you all for posting) interesting informations.

    According to vegas post concerning LPS/MTHF and histamine: how do you handle this? Should we lower the often recommended dosage of 800 mcg daily with the double MTHFR-mutation? Or will the histamine disappear with lowering LPS (through potential gut healing with RS+fibres+probiotics or fermented foods?)

    Regards, jepps
     
  9. jepps

    jepps

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    Berberine helps treating systemic fungus and parasites:

    http://www.healthline.com/natstandardcontent/berberine

    and is acts als prebiotic

    http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0042529

     
  10. jepps

    jepps

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    Also Case Adams recommends berberin for systemic tape worm infections :

    Barberry Proven to Treat Tapeworm Parasite Infections | R.E.A.L. Natural

     
  11. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Conference abstract posted this morning on the Microbe Discovery Project Facebook page.

     
    goldberg, Asklipia, Aileen and 4 others like this.
  12. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    The study is by Maureen Hanson, BTW:

    A small and very interesting new microbiome study from Dr Maureen Hanson at Cornell University suggests ME/CFS patients may have gut bacteria associated with inflammation.

    Dr Hornig is very interested in this and has been in contact with Dr Hanson.

    The research we are trying to crowdfund will build perfectly on great work like Dr Hanson's. As the largest and most rigorous ME/CFS microbiome study to date, this crowdfunded microbiome research study will bring this all up to a new level and also analyse differently.

    With a larger cohort and more specific criteria of diagnosis within a larger geographical location: Dr.s Lipkin and Hornig will be looking at a much larger range of organisms, bacteria, fungi and Viruses and be analysing the immune system activation with respect to a wide variety of cytokines. It is really exciting discovery type work and is about the immune system and possible autoimmunity just as much as pathogenic behaving bacteria and organisms.​
     
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  13. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I would worry less about a protocol that establishes precise, but arbitrary recommendations and use your symptoms as a guide. While we know that this active form of folate can participate in reactions that degrade histamine, methyltetrahydrofolate supplementation can result in a robust immune response, one that many have variously described, including myself, as a "detox" reaction.

    I would argue that in ME/CFS (and perhaps most inflammatory disease processes) this immune response and the associated histamine response will often far exceed the effects of this micronutrient in affecting those processes that would inhibit the histamine response and its metabolism. Its roles in your immune response are numerous, but the high response rate to MTHF (and GcMAF), I think strongly suggests that a bacterial pathophysiology is implicated.

    There are macrophage folate receptors that can respond quite dramatically to exogenous supplementation of MTHF. When someone who has an impaired ability to synthesize (and interconvert) methyltetrahydrofolate increases cellular concentrations via oral supplementation, these receptors will sense this artificial MTHF saturation and prompt a phagocytic response. You can largely throw out the SNP's from this equation I think, although some may have relevance, because the biosynthesis of MTHF is inhibited by design. It is most certainly an evolutionary adaptation that protects humans from excessive oxidative/nitrosative stress.

    The macrophage response, which is one vital component of our defenses against bacterial pathogens, is exquisitely complicated, but many are familiar with the contributions of vitamin D and the vitamin D receptor. One thing bacterial toxins and lipopolysaccharide do specifically is inhibit the VDR protein; they downregulate VDR mRNA and this similarly serves to protect us against an excessive, and life-threatening, immune response. Histamine is just one part of this inflammatory cascade.

    The interplay between the receptors stimulated by vitamin D and active folate is quite fascinating, I won't bore you with the details, but, UV exposure stimulates the synthesis of water-soluble vitamin D, but at the same time it oxidizes many forms of folate in blood plasma. You can control the biosynthesis of Vitamin D by limiting your UVB exposure. For example, I find that when I travel to the subtropics in the summer, I have to limit exposure to the sun secondary to the massive increase in vitamin D synthesis, which precipitates an excessive immune response. One of the ways this is immune response is limited is by the synthesis of melanin, which of course adds pigmentation and reduces the synthesis of vitamin D. There are actually many other countermeasures that serve to inhibit an excessive immune response. One of these is actually the release of histamine as this has been found to induce the biosynthesis of melanin. We also accumulate phenolic compounds, in part because the organisms that degrade these are involved in maintaining the intestinal epithelium. A primarily product of bacterial metabolism of phenols is melanin; in effect our microbes also seemingly try to protect us from excessive immune stimulation as well as they cannot live without us.

    Of course there has to be a balance, melanin decreases the synthesis of vitamin D effectively inhibiting the immune response, but at the same time it protects folate from oxidation in plasma. Your blood of course regularly and rapidly circulates so that it routinely comes in contact with the superficial capillaries that perfuse the skin and are susceptible to UVA & UVB radiation. This is where people with inflammatory diseases can be highly susceptible to sun exposure because MTHF is the primary form of folate that circulates in blood plasma. MTHF is highly resistant to UVA and UVB photodegradation, other forms of folate including folic acid, are readily oxidized in the sun. In this regard, those with impaired ability to biosynthesize MTHF and interconvert folates are likely to be influenced by excessive UV exposure. The protective response appears to involve limiting our biosynthesis of vitamin D and preserving our supply of non-methylated folates since MTHF is generally not oxidized by our exposure to the sun.

    As I have discussed before, the colon is a net producer of folate and those bacterial organisms that are highly sensitive to oxygen are the best producers of MTHF. Some have asserted that this relatively small quantity of folate is a minor consequence to health, but I think the preserved folate transport system in the colon and the distinct response of different forms of folates at different receptor sites suggests otherwise. Without going into detail, it has been discovered that macrophage response varies depending upon the tissues and different forms of folate have variable effects in the lymphatic system versus the small intestine, for example.

    In addition to the fact that highly-oxidizing environmental conditions limit the growth of these folate synthesizers, the conditions also serve to limit the efficiency of the microbial synthesis and the interconversion--again, as I see it, the conditions serve to limit the immune response, I think this is inescapable. Similarly, it is clear that the microbial and human relationship is far more complex and critical that previously believed.

    I think MTHF is beneficial for a number of reasons including protecting other folates from oxidation and I have derived benefits from it, but obviously, in making an argument that its synthesis is purposely downregulated, there is a downside to supplementing with this. I have to be particularly careful with this in the summer when my vitamin D levels are up because it is clear that the sun exposure reduces my already diminished access to this vitamin. I don't notice a big effect at 36 degrees latitude, but 25 degrees kills me. Personally, I do much better on small, but regular doses of MTHF and not letting levels go to high or low.

    I do believe you will see a response that diminishes over time as the epithelial dysfunction is restored secondary to restoration of a more optimal intestinal microbiome, but I can only speculate as I don't have an appreciable histamine response. A combination of resistant polysaccharides that stimulate those organisms that maintain the intestinal epithelium in the colon combined with properly fermented LAB has given me the best results.
     
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  14. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Low numbers of Roseburia faecis is in my opinion, the key finding. This organism utilizes acetate coA-transferase pathways as part of its conversion and synthesis of acetate and butyrate, which I have proposed to be a highly significant finding. In my opinion, the inflammatory/immune measures are not going to be particularly useful.
     
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  15. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    When should one take probiotics so that they work best with RS? Should they be taken together or separately?

    I am trying some acidophilus/bifidus strains, b. infantis, and some yogurt/kefir. Hoping the good stuff will colonize and knock out the baddies.
     
  16. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    I've read that you should take them with RS because they attach to the RS and get a safe ride through the stomach.

    I've also read that that means that you're essentially getting a higher dose than you would otherwise which means you might need to work up slowly.
     
    BadBadBear likes this.
  17. jepps

    jepps

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    Many many thanks, Vegas,

    I copied all posts of this interesting thread (and the Sulfite/ammonia-thread) in a word-document (which is also long, as many posts are so much informative, thank you all. I copied your MTHF-information also in this document, I hope, you agree, I will understand as much as possible, and so this summary is helpful. Should anybody wants to have the summary, I can send it to you via e-mail.

    It takes time to understand the messages. I understand what RS and fibres do for the gut flora, and take 48 g RS, 15 g LAG and a mix of several fibres (each 1 tbsp), and I feel better. But the second message of this thread is about glycolyse, and why we need carbs and glucose for energy.

    I responded to the methylation protocol (Yasko) a year ago with increased detoxification, but in December I had diarrhea (stool test showed very low bifidos, lactos and bacteroides species, and increased candida and pH),
    and fatigue and pain after eating carbs, so I stopped eating them in January, and felt better.

    I eat 100 g carbs (berries, starchy vegetables, chicken stock, coconut), but no rice or starchy sweet potatoes or potatoes, and I take glyconutrients and ribose.

    My thought is, that I have the carb intolerance, because I have increased candida, bacterial and parasite overload of the gut because I did not support the gut during methylation, and that the infections are the reason for the carb intolerance. My plan is to build up the gut flora with RS and fibres, and to moderately supplement with Methyl-NEM´s (as Vegas suggestes), and my hope is, that after building up the flora, I can eat starches of rice and potatoes again, as they are so important.

    But as the glycolyse is responsible for energy metabolism and fighting candida: is there anybody of you, who had the same problem with starches, built up gut and energy slowly, and only after rebuilding the flora was able to eat safe starches?

    With best regards, jepps
     
    Avengers26 likes this.
  18. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    I'm curious about which fibres you're taking, if you wouldn't mind saying.

    I was surprised you counted coconut as being carbs - but then looked it up and saw that it's 15% carbs while sweet potato is 20% - amazing! Chicken stock, though?
     
  19. jepps

    jepps

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    Fructooligosaccharides (1 tsp), psyllium (2 tsp), inulin (1 tsp), pectine (1 tsp), and http://www.ringana.com/de/produkte/frische-packs/einzelangebote/pack-cleansing/ a mix of cognac root, baobaob, beet, oak bran and other 28g. I´m taking this mix for 1 month.

    Sasha, Do you also try to find the right amount for carb intake?
    I´m eating 50g coconuts als mush with goji berries and coconut oil, and this norishes my sweet taste.
    For self made chicken stock you need 2 pds starchy vegetables (onions, parsnips, carrots, parsley root, celeriac), this is the stock I´m consuming within 3 days, these are daily 25 carbs. In my opinion the collagen from the chicken joints and tendons also must count for glycolyse, but I didn´t found any confirmation.

    As far as I read (but this must not be right), the sugar from coconuts comes from disaccharides, and have very low glucose. I do not know, whether this counts for glucose metabolism. Wikipedia says, disaccharides break to glucose and fructose, so the disaccharides must count for sugar and therefore for glycolysis.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2014
    Sasha likes this.
  20. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Thanks - never heard of that stuff.

    I went on a sort of standard recommended amount when I started the paleo diet early this year but haven't systematically experimented to find the optimum for me (not much point as I can never establish a stable enough baseline to test anything like that).

    Now I get it! I have beef or lamb stock every day and hadn't thought about the collagen.
     

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