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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. melihtas

    melihtas

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    Medical Xpress Article: Eating resistant starch may help reduce red meat-related colorectal cancer risk

    Full text of the study: Inhibition by Resistant Starch of Red Meat–Induced Promutagenic Adducts in Mouse Colon
     
  2. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Hi all, ok I'm sold on RS.

    I've been trying it in small doses nightly for a few months. Maximum dose I've achieved is 2 tsps per day.

    Many positive benefits I've noticed:
    • at first I experienced the vivid dreams, and this has continued, and is quite pleasant. As I have been reading through this forum, (note I haven't read through it in it's entirety - but working on it). From what I'm reading this may be a result of RS's relationship to Tryptophan production? I know that this is a similar experience I have had when I have supplemented that pathway (5-HTP, or Tryptophan in past).

    • If so, this would also explain some of the insomnia I have been experiencing of late as well, as there seems to be a point with any changes in the serotonin/tryptophan/melatonin pathway when any given dose changes from being sedated to stimulating for me. I think due to my MAO +/+ problem I'm quite sensitive to any changes in that serotonin pathway. Nonetheless, I'm just going to switch to daytime supplementation of RS and see how that goes. Interestingly, I experienced a wired mood, and alertness almost instantaneously after taking the RS last night - which can't be related to a gut response. So, I'm querying nightshade sensitivity? I do respond to eggplant & broccoli/cauliflower sometimes. I may experiment with Tapioca starch as suggested earlier in this thread.

    • My gut is responding well. No more pain or bloating with grains or really very little with any food. Some increased flatulence at beginning but this is over.

    • My main question is around the changes in methylation that can occur with RS supplementation. I have been taking a stable dose of 6 grams of methylfolate for some time. Since starting RS I noticed that I would get a feeling of being overmethylated - irritable, or super fatigued during the day, and these symptoms would alleviate when I decreased my dosage of methylfolate.

    • I'm having some difficulties however navigating the balance between undermethylating (experiencing several pounds of increased water retention in the past week in my mind in response to decreasing Mfolate, which is a sign of undermethylating usually for me) & overmethylating (due to not decreasing methylfolate fast enough - is my hunch).

    Any advice that someone can offer that has walked down this path in their RS journey would be most welcome. Sorry if this has been answered somewhere in the previous 95 pages, lol. I have been trying to make my way through, and haven't seen this question answered yet.

    Thanks to everyone for your ongoing support. I am so thankful for @Gestalt who had introduced me to this approach a few months ago.

    Star :)
     
    Gestalt likes this.
  3. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Other than generic yams, I didn't see Dioscorea opposita specifically mentioned — it's one of the world's richest natural sources of RS2 — also known as Nagaimo, Japanese Mountain yam, Chinese yam, and Korean yam. It is often used in the Japanese noodle dish tororo udon/soba and as a binding agent in the batter of okonomiyaki. The grated raw nagaimo is known as tororo (in Japanese). In tororo udon/soba, the tororo is mixed with other ingredients that typically include tsuyu broth (dashi), wasabi, and green onions. Also eaten in China, Japan, Vietnam, Korea and the Philippines.

    In Japan, this Asian tuber is usually consumed raw with traditional preparation. Actually it’s one of the few yams that can be safely eaten raw if briefly soaked in a vinegar-water solution (to neutralize irritant oxalate crystals found in the skin). Mark Sisson even mentioned them in a post about yams awhile back.

    A study examining the RS content of Dioscorea opposita had this to say about the tubers:

    A raw potato is rather toxic and only 15% RS2, so if you’re keeping score, at 33.9% RS2 these raw Asian yams are one of the richest sources of RS2 on the planet! And Asians usually eat them raw, grated as a garnish or on a salad.

    And here’s a recipe for raw “Tororo” (Grated Japanese Mountain Yam):

    http://bebeloveokazu.com/2010/03/29/tororo-yamaimo/

    Yum! Again, this tuber is safely eaten raw with a traditional preparation.

    And these tubers get to be really huge. They can grow up to 3 feet long and weigh 4 pounds or more! Enough for the whole family and then some. You can even buy a Nagaimo Mountain Yam Vegetable Grater on Amazon.

    I would think you should be able to find them in a typical Asian food store.

    Nice! Congrats!!
     
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  4. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Just been looking at Dr Thomas Borody's site - he treated CFS patients (not sure how defined) with enteric bacteria (broken up to make it easier to read):

    The GI microbiome and its role in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: A summary of bacteriotherapy

    Journal of the Australasian College of Nutritional and Environmental Medicine, Volume 31 Issue 3 (Dec 2012). Borody, Thomas J1; Nowak, Anna2; Finlayson, Sarah3

    Abstract: Introduction: Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) has a complex and multifactorial etiology making treatment and definitive diagnosis, currently made through exclusion, difficult.

    Current therapies, such as cognitive behaviour therapy and graded exercises, are inadequate and targeted to address symptoms, rather than the underlying disease pathology. Increasing evidence implicates the microbiota of the gut in a number of conditions previously thought distinct from the gastrointestinal system.

    Previous work with bacteriotherapy in CFS has suggested a link between the condition and the composition and health of the gut microbiota.

    Here, we review and further examine a larger cohort of CFS patients who had undergone bacteriotherapy for their CFS.

    Method: A total of 60 patients from the Centre for Digestive Diseases presented with CFS. Of these, 52 patients had concurrent IBS and 4 patients additionally had constipation. All underwent initial transcolonoscopic infusion of 13 non-pathogenic enteric bacteria. 52/60 patients undertook an additional rectal infusion a day later and 3/60 undertook an additional 2 rectal infusions.

    Results: 35/60 patients who underwent initial bacteriotherapy responded to treatment. 10/15 patients who failed this course were offered a secondary transcolonoscopic infusion followed by a rectal infusion or an oral course of cultured bacteria. Of these 7/10 responded, giving a total of 42/60 (70%) patients who responded to treatment.

    Contact was achieved with 12 patients after 15-20 year follow-up. Complete resolution of symptoms was maintained in seven of the twelve patients and 5/12 did not experience recurrence for approximately 1.5-3 years post bacteriotherapy.

    Conclusion: Bacteriotherapy achieves initial success rate of 70% in CFS and a 58% sustained response. Given that manipulation of the colonic microbiota improved CFS symptoms, bacteriotherapy for CFS warrants further investigation and may provide further insight into a possible etiology of CFS.​

    Here's something from his site that I didn't realise about the difference between commercial and "live" bacteria:

    http://www.probiotictherapy.com.au/pages/what_are_probiotics.html

    Problems arise if pathogenic or bad bacteria implant or live among the good human flora. This can cause an imbalance which can have a debilitating and toxic effect on the bowel or even the entire body. Probiotics can include normal human flora which are introduced into the body to increase their dominance in the bowel, thereby reversing the damage and associated problems caused by bad bacteria. Although transient passage of cultured probiotics can improve symptoms it should be noted that oral probiotics commercially available are incapable of implanting permanently into the gut flora as they have lost their capability to adhere to epithelial cells through the process of culturing in the commercial laboratory. It is only fresh human probiotics from another human being that retain that capability and hence can be implanted to reverse damage and side effects and then stay in the bowel to protect in the future.​

    Given that a lot of people trying RS are also trying probiotics, what are the implications of this for using commercial probiotics? Does it mean they're endlessly going to be flushed out (literally) and need to be endlessly replaced?

    Did everybody know about this except me? :(

    I'd like to know what those 13 bacteria were...
     
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  5. jepps

    jepps

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    This means Natasha Campbell in her book. But maybe by eating RS and fibres in nutrition and PS, LAG and so on, cultured probiotics and probiotics as supplement we can hold our colon clean, and also avoid pathogens in the gut as much as possible.
     
    Sasha likes this.
  6. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    I'd read on Mr Heisenbug's blog that L. Plantarum just passes through without taking up residence and he commented that you'd expect to be eating a lot of L. Plantarum naturally with food on a daily basis until we started being so clean:

    http://mrheisenbug.wordpress.com/2014/01/27/l-plantarum-cured-my-eczema/

    but presumably a lot of the other bugs would be expected to be permanent residents and the best we can do, short of a faecal transplant, is to supplement.

    Dr Sarah Myhill (UK ME doctor, for those not familiar), says about faecal bacteriotherapy (transplant):

    The idea of faecal bacteriotherapy is to replenish the gut with friendly microbes. This treatment is of established benefit in inflammatory bowel disease and clostridium difficile infections. It is also used in the veterinary world to treat animals with a range of gut symptoms.

    The difficult bug to replace is bacteroides because this does not survive for more than a few minutes outside the human gut. In addition, I suspect there may be a viral element involved in the health of human gut.Up to 15% of microbes residing in our bodies may be viruses - not the more familiar human pathogens which are responsible for viral illness and infections, but viruses which predate on bacteria. These are called bacteriophages. Phages have been greatly studies and used in Russia and Eastern Europe as natural antibiotics. Even the gut has its own predator-prey balance! More details on Wikipedia - Bacteriophage.

    Phages and obligate anaerobes, like bacteroides, do not survive easily outside the gut. So the only way to replenish this is to use fresh material. There is now also evidence that this therapy is beneficial in Chronic fatigue syndrome. Dr Borody has recently published a paper on this - The GI microbiome and its role in Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: A summary of bacteriotherapy. In this paper 70% of ME patients see clinical benefits of bacteriotherapy.
    Indications for use

    I would suggest trying this for people who lack bacteroides in the gut since this is the only way they can be replenished. Since the main problem is with bacteroides, I would want some evidence this bacteria was lacking. One can look for this by doing a Microbial ecology profile at the American laboratory Metametrix/Genova. Bacteroides does not show up in the Genova lab test Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis .​

    I got my uBiome results back a while ago and I've got only about a third as many bacteriodetes as the average uBiome sample. Maybe I should be seriously thinking about faecal transplant. Dr Myhill links to a clinic that does this in the UK (amazingly - we never seem to have anything in the UK):

    http://taymount.com/
     
  7. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    This looks to me like a scare sales pitch for Faecal Transplants!:D
    The whole of the GI microbiome is constantly evolving and is impermanent by nature.
    At some point the beasties living there came in in the first place. And new ones come in all the time. And some go away for good all the time. All this dependent on exposure yes, but also on the condition of the gut AND of other parts of the body. And on time too (how long do they live for - and when they die off, what is the moon doing at that point?).
    In fact suggesting that fresh human probiotics from another human being will do the trick permanently is obviously false, otherwise Faecal Transplants would have a success rate, whatever it might be in the beginning, constant over time, meaning that these human beasties acquired would stay there for good. Which they don't.

    Not saying that Faecal Transplants cannot help, at a point in time, but their effectiveness is limited to a period of time. If during that period you are lucky enough to be stopping whatever brought on the problem in the first place, or avoid somehow recontamination by bad guys, you win.
    This however does not mean that this temporary effect could not be obtained by oral probiotics. They too are temporary, so what?

    Good luck to all.
    :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
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  8. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    The problem is that at present there seems to be a problem with finding out what exactly is in our guts, even though there has been an advance in testing procedures, leading to the establishment of companies making a business out of testing your poop.
    There is a whole post of Mr Heisenbug whom you cite dedicated to this:
    http://mrheisenbug.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/dear-american-gut-ubiome-you-have-some-explaining-to-do/
     
  9. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    I suppose the first question I should have been asking was, is that claim true? I don't know. Is there something about a 'live" transplant from a human that's different from taking probiotics, in terms of which species it's possible to put into a probiotic and whether they'll attach to epithelial cells (if that is, indeed, a crucial issue).

    This talk of things attaching to epithelial cells has got me wondering whether certain bugs can hang on in there, to feed and multiply every time some food comes down the tube.

    I think the question is not whether faecal transplants do the job permanently (though I had been assuming that they did, so it's a good point that that's not necessarily so) but whether they're more effective than pre- plus probiotics. A lot of us have been struggling to get even tiny amounts of RS or probiotics down our necks without severe symptom flares and have been making very little progress (at least, that's my impression from comments on this thread). I'm wondering if faecal transplants manage to establish a happy colony quickly and without flaring symptoms and can form a basis to then work on with pre- and probiotics to keep it going.

    Not saying you're wrong - I just have a lot of questions! :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
  10. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Same for me!!

    I take from this that you have not personally tried this RS challenge? That your impression that it is difficult to follow is derived from what has been posted on this thread?
    Or have you had difficulties trying it yourself?

    As to side-effects of taking RS or probiotics, I fail to see why faecal transplants would not induce the same kind of symptoms as you would get from taking probiotics orally. If the bacteria in the transplant win the war, it means that there would war in your gut, with the consequent casualties.
    At least when trying RS or probiotics you have a chance to titrate and back down when things get too harsh. I suppose that after you have had your transplant, you cannot undo it, whatever the result is.
    Studies telling us of the results of faecal transplants do not mention how comfortable the procedure has been. :devil: Not mentioning D day of the procedure here, just hinting at what might happen afterwards, after a massive dose of new bacteria fight the existing bacteria in your gut.

    Lots of good wishes,
    Asklipia:hug:
     
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  11. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    The paper is very sketchy in general. No idea what criteria they used to establish a diagnosis of CFS. They also don't seem to have used a standardised outcome measure:

    They don't report the composition of the infusion except to say this:

    I wouldn't put much stock in this study. For all we know they studied a bunch of tired people. Judging by the reactions on this thread to even minuscule doses of RS, other fibres and probiotics, people with ME would have a hard time tolerating this treatment due to presumed intestinal permeability causing these often scary systemic reactions. Anyway, if anyone wants the full text, feel free to PM.
     
  12. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    I've tried RS and was fine on it (no improvement that I could clearly attribute to it) but failed when I tried to introduce Prescript Assist and L. Plantarum - crushing sinus headaches with both. Quite a few other people on this thread have posted about difficulties introducing RS itself or various probiotics (or other prebiotics).

    Those are all good points - I wonder, though, if there's anything special about importing an entire microbiome from a healthy human, as opposed to artificial selections of various individual bacteria.

    Again, I don't know - just questions. :)
     
  13. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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  14. jepps

    jepps

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    Study about the effekt of Bifidobacterium in decreasing colonic lipopolysaccharide concentrations:

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23568206

     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
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  15. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    This is very interesting, as well as the message you just posted, which appeared on my email but seems to have disappeared or not appeared at all here???????
    Also something strange seems to be happening, I do not get informed as I should be of additions to this thread.
    You seem to have posted :
    'We have collected many research articles to show that the toxins found in microorganisms play an important role in the suspected causes of ASD, in particular, lipopolysaccharide ( LPS)" etc.
    Did you delete it?
     
  16. yukito

    yukito

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    Just to report effects with broad beans.
    Heve tried them for 1 month.
    Obvious effect in the neck and eyes.
    The position of my jaw has also changed,the shape of my nose and eyes changed a liittle.
    Mood was a lot better also.
    My smile was and remains a lot more attractive;)probably linked to the changes of position experienced.
    The position of body changed also after lot of crunches.I gained in general elasticity.
    Food preferences changed,usually I don't like apples and fresh tomatoes now I do.I developped a preference for piquant and a sort of green chili pepper.I used to eat a lot of oranges now I do a lot less.

    broad beans had a destructive effect,very located in the neck but small in the other parts of body.Time passing I was exausted and was like hungry of something that I never really found.
    Methylation supps helped a lot to pass trough this side effects but in the end there was lacking something.
    When I understood the importance of these fresh broad beans and wanted to buy kilograms of it to freeze,it became unavailable on my country,so it's over sadly.
    I bought freezed broad beans,but it tasted disgusting.

    200g of fresh broad beans once a week was enough to feel those effects.

    Ps: Potato starch,larch arabinogalactan had no good effect on me.
     
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  17. jepps

    jepps

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    Asklipia, this Website is so interesting, that it needs more time to summary the most important Statements. Here is the Website:

    http://www.microbialinfluence.com/
    If bifidos bind to LPS, this means, it detoxyfies LPS, does this mean, that we can handle Mercury and other heavy metals much more better? As RS and other fibres as LAG and so on create bifidos, it could be important to address first the gut with PHD, RS and fibres, and then we can deal and detoxify heavy metals

     
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  18. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Hi @yukito,
    Nice to hear you had some good effects from the broad beans (fava) as we had.
    For us also it changed our food preferences.
    What I did as soon as I found out theirs was a strong effect, I bought as many as I could, then took them out their pods and froze them in little 375 g grams bags (for two). They are still working after unfreezing maybe not so much as when they were very fresh (some of them have paled, changed colour from deep green to yellow), but still. Something to keep in mind for next year when the season comes back. I froze them out of the pods but not peeled, they still have their thick skin on.
    Unless you want to travel to a place where they are in season and fly them back!!!:)

    In the meantime I have been experimenting with other legumes to replace this effect, I have not found exactly the same effect BUT:
    I have regularly been making the same exact salad with black eyed beans, cooked (the broad beans were raw). It was nice, but no spectacular effect. Two weeks ago I had a lot of guests and I cooked a big pot of those black eyed beans to make a big such salad for them. At the last moment they decided to eat in a restaurant, so I had those black eyed beans already cooked and I just froze them in little 375 g bags, thinking I would use them later.
    Two days ago I made a salad with those frozen beans, and we were like hit by a truck, impossible not to sleep. The same thing we felt when we had started taking Vit K2, something that I now recognize at being very healing.
    So, something happens in the freezing for these black-eyed beans, maybe conversion of RS2 to RS3, and this is just what we need?
    Worth exploring.
    Maybe this RS3 is more what we missed?
    I should say that that same day we also ate a couple of arepas with guacamole made with home-made yogurt.
    But we had been eating regularly arepas with guacamole made with home-made yogurt, and nothing such had ever happened.
    Maybe the two together makes a special combination?

    Next week I shall make the salad with frozen beans and no arepas/guacamole to see what is the source of this sleepy effect.
    Enjoy!
    Lots of good wishes:hug::balloons::hug:
    Asklipia
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2014
  19. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Same here, at the moment we eat a lot of GREEN chillies. Maybe a need for vit C? A lot of chillies in general, but a distinct preference for green chillies. I put them everywhere in the food, I even make special food that will contain green chillies.
    - guacamole
    - legume salads with green chillies
    - chicken broth with green chillies and mung starch glass noodles (+ black mushrooms and a handful of shrimps)
    - chicken hariyali (green chillies, garlic, coriander)

    In fact, it is not only green chillies we crave, but a kind of trinity : garlic, green chillies, coriander leaves.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2014
  20. BadBadBear

    BadBadBear Senior Member

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    :) I am eating a lot of green chili, too! Have been craving it. I need to buy a big box of them to freeze. Also craving eggplant.

    I had not considered it might be RS making me sleepy around 10 AM. Hmmmm.
     

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