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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    I am wondering if people have noticed with Lactobacillus and Lactococcus any increase in muscle tension and ache due to increased production of lactic acid (I assume).

    Especially people with adrenal fatigue where increased adrenaline will cause muscle tension, as production of adrenaline is increased (as a back up system) while adrenals are not able to produce adequate amount of cortisol instead.
  2. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    Lactic Acid causing muscle aches is a persistent MYTH that needs to go away.

    "Robergs et al. have discussed the creation of H+ during exercise,[11] and claim the idea that lactic acid causes acidosis is a "construct" or myth, pointing out that part of the H+ comes from ATP hydrolysis (ATP−4 + H2O → ADP−3 + HPO4−2 + H+), and that reducing pyruvate to lactate (pyruvate- + NADH + H+ → lactate- + NAD+) actually consumes H+. Lindinger et al.[12] claimed that Robergs et al. ignored the causative factors of the increase in [H+]." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid#Exercise_and_lactate

    Lactic acid is one of the most beneficial things for your gut and your body. Your neurons inyour brain use lactic acid as energy.

    "Although glucose is usually assumed to be the main energy source for living tissues, there are some indications that it is lactate, and not glucose, that is preferentially metabolized by neurons in the brain of severalmammalian species (the notable ones being mice, rats, and humans).[13][14] According to the lactate-shuttle hypothesis, glial cells are responsible for transforming glucose into lactate, and for providing lactate to the neurons.[15][16]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactic_acid#Brain_metabolism

    It is my hypothesis that it is precisely a lack of lactic acid along with acetic acid (for the citric acid cycle) that is the primary mechanism by which people acquire CFS. Lack of energy = lack of acids that give you energy. Thes acids are made primarily by lactobacilli. These acids are what keep your gut in shape and the bad organisms out.

    I recently began experimenting with huge quantities (100's of biliions daily) of LAB's and my muscles feel better and brain has more energy than in a very, very long time.
    Helen, jepps, Asklipia and 2 others like this.
  3. Sidereal

    Sidereal

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    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20661876
    adreno likes this.
  4. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    So if we ignore the aching part, with more lactic bacteria you do not feel an increase in muscle tension? My problem is that I have muscle tension and my muscles feel that they have just lifted 100 kiloes in the gym when I just do nothing.
  5. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    Sidereal, elevated CSF lactate seems to correlate with mechanical head injury. This study is almost identical, but has nothing to do with CFS. Unless all people with CFS have permanent mechanical brain injuries?

    Prognostic significance of ventricular CSF lactic acidosis in severe head injury.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3772448


    I almost never pay any attention to correlative studies. Correlation does not mean causation, and often a causative mechanism isn't even established. Then in many cases scientists develop spurious conclusions.

    "In statistics, a spurious relationship is a mathematical relationship in which two events or variables have no direct causal connection, yet it may be wrongly inferred that they do, due to either coincidence or the presence of a certain third, unseen factor (referred to as a "confounding factor" or "lurking variable")." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spurious_relationship
    I can't count the number of times I see this happen in medical literature.
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  6. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Eating lactic acid gives me headache anxiety, fatigue and burning muscles.
  7. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    How do you eat it?
  8. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Sauerkraut or LABs.
  9. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    That may not have been lactic acid you were reacting to. Some foods are fermented with yeasts and god knows what else so there are many other variables to account for. I normally stay clear of all fermented foods, but recently tried BioK+ and an organic kefir and have been fine.

    Likewise with LABs. Not all are equal, some I have had unpleasant reactions to and others have benefited me. It's important to take confounding variables into account before establishing hasty causal relations.

    What's more "burning muscles" is not a listed symptom of lactic acidosis. Again post-muscle burn from exercise is NOT from lactic acid as referenced in the previous post.

    On top of this LABs produce D-Lactate, which is different than L-Lactate produced via human metabolism. High blood lactate as in the "L" kind often come from shallow breathing and lack of oxygen.
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
    Asklipia likes this.
  10. Avengers26

    Avengers26

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    ok, thanks ripley.
  11. RustyJ

    RustyJ Contaminated Cell Line 'RustyJ'

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    Gestalt likes this.
  12. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I am presently taking two prebiotics--larch arabinogalactan and chitin-glucan--both in very modest quantities. It is my perception that I am experiencing rapid increases and decreases in microbial enrichment carried out by this prebiotic supplementation. I am trying to maintain more consistent prebiotic "stimulation" by taking smaller, more regular doses. Sometimes this catches up to me. As for probiotics, I am only using the fermented vegetables that I make in anaerobic fermentation jars. This will contain a diverse array of anaerobes that predominantly populate the small intestine.

    There are quite a number of prebiotics that interest me, but I favor a more systematic approach to understand the effects and haven't tested many of these yet. I am curious about XOS and N-acetylgalactosamine, but I am particularly interested in cellobiose. I do believe a variety of prebiotics will prove to be most successful, and this will include both a beta 1-3 and 1-4 glycosidic linkages, but I'm seeking to get some experience with these individually.

    Large amounts of a singular prebiotic will generally result in decreased microbial diversity, and a combination of prebiotics is certainly more likely to promote the microbial symbiosis that is necessary to correct the metabolic mess that exists. It is quite an extraordinary thing that happens in the gut, with microbes regulating metabolites and metabolites regulating microbes. I'm just too analytical and too curious to throw all those things prebiotics together, but diversity has it's merits. Ultimately, I think you will find that you will gravitate toward what is most tolerable.
    Asklipia, Sidereal and Sasha like this.
  13. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I recall Paul Cheney talked about the inverse relationship between ventricular lactate and glutathione in CFS. There are similar associations with brain lactate and GSH. You don't want more.
  14. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I don't want to get too far off topic.

    I agree not all LAB foods are created equal, hence the reason I advocate a certain type of fermentation method for supplementing LAB.

    I agree that lactic acid doesn't contribute to pain from contracted muscles, but I think these physiological features/symptoms are still mediated by a combination of too much H+ and too little intracellular buffering capacity, so it is not truly a lactic acid problem in the muscles, but it is still resultant from acidic conditions.

    I do think high lactate foods, regardless of the isomer, can certainly create problems in ME/CFS given the derangement of our metabolisms with diminished ability to create and recycle energy, the extremely energy intensive process of converting lactate to pyruvate via the Cori cycle, decreased buffering capacity, the assumed problems with intestinal permeability, etc.

    I don't believe this is a fundamental problem, but rather a secondary development.
  15. Avengers26

    Avengers26

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    @Vegas, Thanks. After reading some of your earlier posts, i have added natren's 2 bifido probiotics & am finding them helpful. I did read you mentioning somewhere about having high pelvic tension at one time which subsequently got resolved. This is a major symptom for me. Would you have any suggestions on that? Muscle tension all over the body incl. face/eyes etc. is a major symptom for me. I just created a new post on that in the symptoms section.

    I started a high sat. fat 2 days ago & am finding that helpful, too. I also recently added LAG 1/2 cap twice a week but it's too soon to say anything on it. BTW, Swanson vitamins sells the ResistAid LAG at a good price. That's the one i bought.
  16. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    If I had to borrow a page from the skin...something I have been doing a lot of research into recently:
    [​IMG]
    http://www.gestaltreality.com/2014/...altering-its-ph-microbial-malassezia-profile/

    Skin "permeability" appears to be primarily mediated by pH. Skin naturally has a pH close to 4, if it rises too high (becomes alkaline) the environment becomes susceptible to the fungi Malassezia and other bacteria.

    Likewise the colon, permeability is mediated by the availability of the acid butyrate which helps tighten junctions. Again colon pH is somewhere around 4-6, ideally. The primary purpose of taking RS is to create the acid butyrate, to lower pH and provide energy to colonocytes.

    However for the small intestine the only thing that I have conclusively come across the causes permeability issues is candida hyphae punching holes in the wall as it grows. Here again the growth of candida is mediated by how alkaline/acidic the local environment is. Virulence genes switch on when pH becomes to alkaline.

    The primary point of taking any prebiotic or probiotic is the production of acids. Bacteria take glucose in and pump out a fatty acid.

    Ray Medina had some interesting things to say on the lactic-acid matter:

    "Nevertheless, the overwhelming majority of the published research on gut-brain interactions has very little to say about lactate-induced mental issues. As I’ve written repeatedly over the past year, it’s gram-negative endotoxins, and the immune responses they provoke, that are mainly implicated in mental and energy disturbances like anxiety, depression, and chronic fatigue syndrome.

    The fact of the matter is that a major way beneficial gut flora guard against gut pathogens is precisely by reducing the pH of the gut wall via lactic acid production. To quote Wikipedia:

    "The lactic acid bacteria (LAB) are rod-shaped bacilli or cocci characterized by an increased tolerance to a lower pH range. This aspect partially enables LAB to outcompete other bacteria in a natural fermentation, as they can withstand the increased acidity from organic acid production (e.g., lactic acid)."

    Raise gut pH by eradicating these bacteria, and I can guarantee you intestinal hell on earth."
    http://syontix.com/lactobacillus-acidophilus-and-sibo/
    It would seem then that if people have negative reactions to LAB's is mostly due to the die-off of gram-negative bacteria they induce and the subsequent release of endotoxins. Meaning maybe you want to build up LABs and lactic acid slowly over time.

    Vegas how many LAB's to you think you consume a day? I just want a ballpark idea....You were anaerobically fermenting food primarily to get high numbers correct?
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2014
  17. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Sorry, what are LABs?

    I dipped my toe in the probiotic water yesterday and took 1/4 of a capsule of L. Plantarum, mixed in with the RS/psyllium/Amazing Grass. I had a lot of gas during the day (took that to be a good sign of something happening) and had a much better night's sleep last night than I've had for a while - I'm up three hours earlier than I've managed for the last few days, which had been pretty bad. Don't know if that's coincidence, of course.

    I'm going to hold at 1/4 capsule for a while. Someone made the point ages ago that because we're necking our probiotics with a ton of prebiotics, a lot more of the probiotic is going to make it safely to the intestines so a normal dose of 1 capsule of anything might be too much (especially at first).
  18. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Lactic Acid-producing Bacteria

    Ok... @Vegas, @Gestalt and others. Mystery time. So, I had Candida/Yeast issues in the past and feel like I'm 98% recovered from it. But, if I eat homemade yogurt or kefir (from the farmer's market) or if I take Primal Defense Ultra (full of LABs), I get a pretty bad brain fog. If I take yogurt/kefir and Primal Defense Ultra together, my brain fog is even worse. This all happens within a few hours of taking these.

    But, if I avoid them, I don't have any brain fog.

    Do we think the brain fog is from some kind of D-Lactate acidosis? Or do we think this is because of die-off endotoxins from LABs doing their job? I think I tolerate L. Plantarum relatively well, with no noticeable brain fog.

    And to keep this related to RS... if I take PS while the yogurt/kefir/PDU-induced brain fog is evident, the PS just makes the brain fog worse. But, when I don't have brain fog, the PS makes my brain feel very sharp.
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2014
    Asklipia and Sasha like this.
  19. jepps

    jepps

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    Or it´s a histamine reaction, because probiotics stimulate the immune systeme?
  20. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    I think how the homemade yogurt/kefir is cultured and by what is extremely important. I think lactic acid gets a bad rap because people are paranoid about it because the word acid freaks them out. Then they automatically assume that's what causes them issues. However there is a 3rd most important confounding variable that needs to be considered.

    Many homemade mixtures are cultured with yeast, and yeast produce glutamates which gives me insta-brain fog. Likewise with the Primal defense ultra...sure it's loaded with LABs but it also has the yeast Saccharomyces boulardii.

    I take LABs on their own I'm fine, but if I take it with Saccharomyces boulardii I have issues. @Ripley remember the homemade kombucha you had, and the bad reaction? Again the stuff is loaded with glutamates.

    This is why I am paranoid about most fermented foods. It's not the LABs or the lactic acid that scares me, it's the yeasts and their glutamates which gives me terrible brain fog. I have to stay far away from anything with MSG in it as well.

    Over the last few days I have been using BioK+ which is cultured specifically with only 3 labs, NO yeasts, and I have no brain fog and I feel more energized. You can taste the lactic acid in this stuff it's so potent. (be careful the biok+ rice ferment does have yeast, so it's important to distinguish it from the milk one)

    Like you I have the yeast/candida issue. In the case of candida, the brain fog is caused by ammonia. In my case I can experience two types of brain fog caused by two different things. Glutamate and Ammonia both potent excitotoxins, but I have ruled out lactic acid because I drank the stuff straight, no issues.

    Endotoxin-die off is another possibility. But when I was getting severe herx, it caused me more nausea rather than brain fog...However every person is unique.
    Asklipia, Ripley, South and 1 other person like this.

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