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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Thanks, @Valentijn - I'll take a look at that.
  2. NattieC

    NattieC

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    Got these figures from uBiome, though I'm wondering what they're worth, given the above comment about inconsistency between uBiome and the AGP.

    Is anything obviously wrong? They've only provided phylum-level data, which is disappointing. I don't know if there's more coming down the pike.

    Phylum %
    Firmicutes 72
    Bacteriodes 18
    Cyanobacteria 4
    Verrucomicrobia 3
    Proteobacteria 1
    Tenericutes 1
    Actinobacteria 0.50
    Fusobacteria 0.03
    Synergistetes 0.01
    Gemmatimonadetes 0.00
    Spirochaetes 0.00
    Acidobacteria 0.00
    Nitrospinae 0.00
  3. RML

    RML Senior Member

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    @Sasha I am also completely lacking in bifidobacterium, as well as something else that I never remember, and other imbalances/ dysbiosis . I am on VSL3 twice day.
    Sasha likes this.
  4. South

    South Senior Member

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    Not the way I read that study; the study implies that "translocation" is a BAD thing. It states that the translocation period was shorter (for klebsiella) in the mice fed the Prebiotics, than it was in the mice not fed Prebiotics.

    Am I reading that study wrong? Sigh, wish someone would do a study and state the results in plain language, instead of using these fancy phrases.
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2014
  5. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    Yes, translocation (spreading) of klebsiella is bad, and was reduced in the mice group fed prebiotics. If the prebiotic had fed the klebsiella, it would have spread more, so the study suggests prebiotics are safe and beneficial even in the case of klebsiella infection.
    Aileen likes this.
  6. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    I take both, plus about a dozen others brands/combinations.
    Sasha likes this.
  7. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Actually, I believe Acacia may be given another look at some point. It seems that the lectin toxicity may have been overblown and if you read the reviews of Heather's Tummy Fiber on Amazon (Acacia Senegal) you'll find that it has a cult following with IBS sufferers and appears to be extremely gentle. In fact, its mild viscous nature may be an ideal way to move RS2 without the blockages that are a concern with glucomannan and psyllium. Acacia also has a long and well known history in Africa, where it is often used to treat digestion disorders. So, don't rule it out just yet. I have a hunch that it could be very helpful for those with challenging digestion issues.

    Keep in mind that the instructions for Acacia are to start very slowly.
    Asklipia and adreno like this.
  8. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Yes, it was. Though, I actually copied it from an earlier post in this very thread :)

    Those trace glycoalkaloid figures may be off as I didn't have access to the full papers and I can't find where I got the numbers from at the moment. But, I know that PS should only have trace levels of glycoalkaloids. I've seen figures for "potato flour" and it has very low levels of glycoalkaloids. There's certainly nothing wrong with giving your PS a little acid wash if it's issue though!
    Sasha likes this.
  9. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    I'm taking this exact one and am already at 2 tbsp a day. No extra gas/bloating. So far I am liking it.

    Dr.Grace pointed out though that this may be different than Acacia "gum" as it's a "fiber". I am curious if there is a difference and if there is would like to try the gum as well.

    I tried glucomannan but had to stop. Gave me way too much gas.
  10. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I take acacia and it sits well with me. No bloating, gas or any other symptoms. It makes my stool firm, which psyllium didn't. It seems to have a calming effect on the stomach. I take 1 ts.
  11. ariel

    ariel

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    I'm eventually going to try them all too. I figure the more diverse my gut biome is the better for all of us.

    Don't forget that the Hadza tribe had no bifidobacteria at all. So it would seem that you certainly don't need them to be healthy. But given everything that Vegas has written about them in the sulfate and ammonia thread I linked to, plus the little bits Dr Grace wrote, it seems wise to give B infantis and B bifido a try.

    I started B infantis a couple of days ago. Waves of slight nausea at first, but after a while some serotonin kicked in. Hmmmnnn... serotonin.... !
  12. ariel

    ariel

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    Oh that's good to hear. I saw that on iherb and there were rave reviews, and was tempted to give it a whirl but wasn't totally sure. Next time.
    A bunch of stuff just arrived including Larch AG. Looking forward to trying it.
  13. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Still trying to get my head around what to do, in the absence of any knowledge of what's actually in my gut (hard to get a test here in the UK)...

    Is the idea for PWME to tackle what appear to be specific deficits (if we've been tested)? Is there actually general agreement on what should be in there, given international variation and given that in the West, the "norm" may not be that healthy?

    Or is the approach to do what @Gestalt did and go for maximum variety? In that case, what do you start with?

    Sorry if this has been covered - I'm all confused now!
  14. RustyJ

    RustyJ Contaminated Cell Line 'RustyJ'

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    Similar to you, I've been trying to get my head around probiotics for a long time, because the research has been conflicting and it is difficult to know what each person is lacking, or overpopulated in.

    I now have the attitude that taking some might be better than taking none (with prebiotic), as the dithering is getting me nowhere. So I am leaning towards Gestalt's regime of taking as many of the good ones as you can.
    Aileen and Sasha like this.
  15. ariel

    ariel

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    Hello Sasha, as I recently outlined in that post which linked to the ammonia thread plus copied bits from Dr Grace re bifido and fos/inulin, my thinking is that it is probably a good idea to start with the two bifidos and inulin/fos, plus maybe some green banana flour, and larch ag. I'm going to add in all the SBOs recommended in a bit. ( I basically haven't ordered them as yet as the Prescript Assist is hard to get here, and the AOR Proboitic 3 is out of stock at iherb. The primal defense ultra has just arrived. And on closer inspection it seems to mostly be Lactobacs plus Bifidos. So not sure why it is called 'Homeostatic Soil Organisms' ?? )

    But, this is just me, and I might be totally and utterly wrong! :)
    Though really, this is all so new I think we just have to jump in and splash about.
    You can certainly just stick with the potato starch and prescript assist if you wish.

    Maybe I'm being overly simplistic, so please discard as you see fit, but I figure all we are really doing is taking a starch found in food to feed beneficial bacteria, and adding in bacteria that may be missing because of antibiotics and simply not getting them in the first place for whatever reason. It isn't as though we are taking synthesized vitamins, drugs, or antibiotics which kill everything.
    So the only really tricky bit is that once you start to change the gut terrain you will start to detox. Like I said, I see that as a good thing. Yay! the bad guys are being displaced and coming out!
    So you will have to find ways to support your body's elimination organs as much as possible. Everyone will have a different way of doing that. I use coffee enemas (as I've already gone on about :redface:), liver support herbs every so often, epsom salt baths, and can't remember what else. Asklipia moves the lymph around with water therapy. Someone else here mentioned sarsaparilla. Charcoal is also a good option. -- I'm sure you have your own preferred way. Plus of course decreasing the dose and stopping for a couple of days.

    Don't forget that you can simply address it all through your diet. Eating lots of cooked and cooled potatoes, other tubers, beans, fibrous fruit like apples, and fermented foods like sauerkraut and kefir (which have loads of L plantarum). Also making sure your potatoes etc are organic and still have a bit of dirt on them (for the soil-based probiotics).
    You don't actually have to take any store-bought resistant starch or probiotic. (Afterall FOS/Inulin is found in garlic, asparagus, jerusalem artichokes etc). We are simply jump starting the process and making sure there is a range of flora actually there.
    Once things are established I am ultimately aiming to try and do as much as possible through diet.

    Just remember the ride might be a bit bumpy, but after a while we will have a more diverse flora and will know what to feed the friendly ones.
    :)
    Asklipia, Sasha and shah78 like this.
  16. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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  17. Avengers26

    Avengers26

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    @Gestalt @Vegas @Ripley do you mind sharing what pre/probiotics you take. i am learning my way along. thank you.
  18. Avengers26

    Avengers26

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    hi, @ariel, you can get aor probiotic3 at pureformulas.com. i have ordered from them before & found them satisfactory.
  19. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    I don't have ME/CFS, so what I do probably doesn't apply to you. I mainly just use Prescript Assist right now and the occasional AOR Probiotic 3 and L. Plantarum. And I try to eat a few mouthfuls of probiotic foods, like raw sauerkraut.
  20. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Most people think of the sap when they talk about the gum of the Acacia tree, but I believe Dr. Grace told me Acacia, Glucomannan and Psyllium are all gums.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gum

    They all become viscous after some time in water, and I think that's the gumminess we're referring to in the context of these fibers. I agree it's confusing though. But, the impression I was given is that acacia fiber is technically a gum.

    It appears that the viscous nature of Acacia would move RS2 more distally. It's viscous nature also helps regulate people who either have constipation or diarrhea. It just normalizes things from what I understand.

    Acacia is considered to be more "medicinal" than RS2 and has a long history of use in Africa (though, they tended to make bark/stem teas out of it), and Acacia appears to have anti-pathogenic properties. As I said, many people on Amazon — who have never heard of RS2 — seem to be doing quite well with just a little Acacia. Can't say this enough, but be sure to start slooow if you try it (follow the directions on the label).

    I believe the resin could also be made into psychedelic compounds. And some have suggested that Moses and his gang saw their religious visions while high on Acacia. The Heather's Tummy Fiber seems to not have that effect though. :)

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