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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. ariel

    ariel

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    Adreno how do you know that you need extra B2?


    Is there anyone here who can advise on B6, specifically in relation to pyroluria hpu/kpu ?
    I decided that I most probably had it last year. I never took a test as the tests seemed pretty unreliable -- though that was probably unwise of me (have been doing a lot of self-experimentation over here). Anyway, I started supplementing with extra zinc plus manganese in the morning and B6 plus P5P (activated B6) in the evening. It set off huge detox reactions and I had to go very slowly.
    I am assuming that resistant starch is helping the body to produce B6 - hence the vivid dreams.
    So, this might be slightly impossible to answer, but should I continue to take the B6's every so often ??
    Or should all B supplementation be stopped as the healthy bacteria are starting to produce it?
    Except for perhaps B2? -- I have very superficially skimmed the 'B2 I love you' thread and know that was the basic theory proposed there, I haven't had the concentration span to understand the mechanics of it yet.

    Edited to add:
    My apologies that this is a little rambling and disjointed. In essence I am simply trying to understand how taking resistant starch is changing the Vit B levels.
    I know that it is increasing B6. And seemingly depleting B2. This raises questions about what to be supplementing with, if at all.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2014
  2. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Symptoms like angular chelitis and low mental energy that goes away when I take more B2.
     
    ariel likes this.
  3. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Very interesting post on Free the Animal this morning. Turns out that potato starch isn't free of nightshade toxins after all:

    Groundbreaking: How to Easily Remove Nightshade Toxins From Potato Starch

    Ever since the beginning some percentage of people trying out supplemental resistant starch in the form of Potato Starch have complained of nightshade tolerance issues, primarily headaches and joint pain. This was a mystery, because some of us, including myself, were operating under the belief that these toxins were water soluble. Turns out not so.

    I'll let Ken Willing explain, as well as deliver a very simple solution (literally).​

    http://freetheanimal.com/2014/07/groundbreaking-nightshade-starch.html




     
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  4. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    It happened to us too. We took very little B2 (12.5 mg) for three days and stopped all pre and probiotics. Then started again. No more B2 deficiency symptoms (for us it was slightly dry eyes and a general feeling - we have been there and know it) after that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2014
    Sasha likes this.
  5. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    BTW, for UK people, it looks as though citric acid isn't easily findable in supermarkets because it can have dubious uses. Online, people suggest you try an independent pharmacy or Wilkinson's (in the winemaking supplies department!).
     
  6. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    We both found that the bad reactions we got from PS at the beginning are slowly disappearing. Slowly but certainly disappearing. This would mean that they were not due most probably to a Nightshade problem or a sulfur problem.
    Most probably due to too much fungus being killed (the anti-fungal action of PS seems to be quite vigorous, partly because of the size of the PS molecule) or maybe due to some bacteria present in the PS that would fight with the ones we have.
    In March we could only take 2.5 g PS every 5 days and it was quite hard. Now we take 7.5 g PS every day with limited lymphatic reaction.

    As to citric acid : in case you want to try that way, thinking that Nightshade toxins are the problem, a dash of vinegar should do fine. Or real lemon juice, or a bit of boric acid (saturated solution of which is less acidic than vinegar but a fungus killer).
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2014
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  7. ariel

    ariel

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    I've just been trying to figure out some why some of you are getting depleted B2, and also trying to answer my own question about how resistant starch is creating B6 -- the more vivid dreams -- and whether I should stop taking B6 whilst on PS.
    I found this post from Gestalt who is quoting Rich VS
    http://www.gestaltreality.com/2013/07/23/anxiety-ammonia-the-nmda-receptor/
    The parts which caught my eye is that people with CFS often have low levels of B6 because the body uses it for converting amino acids. Low levels of B6 is also tied to high prevalence of gut dysbiosis in CFS and the further breakdown of amino acids into ammonia by unfriendly bacteria in the gut.
    Also: "So in the longer term, B6 needs to be brought up, and B2 is needed also, to convert B6 to its active form, P5P".
    So, maybe the reason why the body is using more B2 whilst taking resistant starch is because it is converting more B6 into P5P than it is used to. ?? And the added B6 is allowing for more reactions to take place and a general reduction of ammonia ??

    I also found this study which has identified that LAB species produce folates, B2, and B12.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21933312
    But that doesn't really explain why some are starting to notice deficiencies in their B2 levels, so it must be more to do with what Rich VS and Gestalt were pointing to.
     
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  8. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    @Sasha
    I am not convinced it is a good idea at this point for us to supplement in vitamins, B2 included. This is because I feel there is a slow but steady improvement with this Resistant Starch Challenge. Admittedly, we felt cured already before starting it, but we were quite surprised to get bad reactions to PS, LAG etc and even to probiotics. I think the answer for us has not been to supplement to try to force the pace of recovery, but to stop everything anytime that it was becoming uncomfortable.
    I know, this is hard to do, especially if you feel it is having beneficial effects. But it will take some time for a new bacterial equilibrium to set.
    Any supplement will of course boost a particular strain of bacteria and frankly I have no way to find out what they are.
    A little bit of B2, why not? We took it mainly to check if that was the thing missing, to help build a model of what was happening (thank you @ariel what you wrote is very helpful :thumbsup:). But we stopped after three days.
    I want to feel in my body the pace of recovery, and enjoy every minute of it, and understand the subtle differences as they come and go.
    What I am searching for is a balance of health, and every supplement that is not real food or near to real food will only push the body out of balance, making the goal retreat further. Looking for the careless happiness of health :balloons:.
    Stopping for a few days : This is now our way to deal with the unpleasant aspects of this RS.
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2014
    ariel likes this.
  9. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    @Asklipia - unfortunately, I've not had the improvements with RS that you have - in fact, I'm not sure I've had any, even though I continue with it. I've had dry eyes for 18 months and have been on the RS for about 6, so it's not that I think that taking RS has caused a B2 deficiency - I'm just looking for something to tackle a distressing symptom.
     
  10. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Sorry about this @Sasha. :hug:
     
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  11. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    @Sasha, sorry to hear about the lack of progress. Have you considered stopping the RS and introducing some of the other fibres discussed here?

    I have been experimenting with larch arabinogalactan over the last couple of weeks (Swanson's Fiberaid product, one capsule taken every 3-4 days). It produces some systemic inflammation like RS but not as much. Of the prebiotics I have tried so far, I am tolerating it better than RS, GOS or FOS. For a day or two after a dose of LAG I feel more fatigued, heavy and my lymph nodes ache but overall it has had a very positive effect on my brain fog and mental energy. No effect on physical energy or POTS thus far. Mentally it's actually quite activating so I find I have to take it in the morning or else can't sleep. It feels like real energy, though, not that fake norepinephrine mediated energy/agitation that I ran on for many years before the final crash.
     
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  12. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Hi @Sidereal - I've been thinking of adding things in but I'm worried about confusing the picture. I did in fact have a noticeable but short-lived improvement in my OI some time back but it could plausibly have been due to another therapy (low-dose naltrexone, plus some sort of Japanese mushroom extract that helps the NK cells) that I was trying at the same time but briefly stopped and then restarted after a couple of weeks. I want to keep things steady for a bit before deciding what to do next.

    I think that my OI is my major limiting symptom - cognitively, I'm relatively OK.

    Has anyone else had the experience with RS of having an improvement that went away?

    I'm wondering if it's likely that the LDN/NK cells stuff is antagonistic to what the RS is doing.
     
  13. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    No.
    But we had some rough times with old symptoms coming back for a few days, disappearing again after we stopped all RS and probiotics, coming back much reduced, disappearing again etc...
    I couldn't say. We take quite a lot of various mushrooms at the moment and it seems to help, not to be antagonistic. That is, it seems to mitigate the bad effects, allowing us to slowly increase the doses of RS (of which we take several different types, as varied as possible, including LAG).
    OI is completely gone and I am very sure footed now.
    It was gone before I started RS 5 months ago, but this last week I suddenly can stand on one leg and do all kind of stuff at the same time. So it means I was not as cured as I thought and RS is improving the situation.
    I suppose that the very fact that RS was hard to take means that something was wrong, which is slowly being put right.
    Lots of good wishes! :balloons:
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2014
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  14. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Thanks - it's hugely tempting to take the LAG, since I read somewhere (I think) it's supposed to help with your NK cells and of course PWME are supposed to have NK cell problems but I think I'd better have a period of sticking to what I'm doing and seeing what happens.
     
  15. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Comment from moderation: The topic of this thread is very broad and, by its nature, relates to many areas of interest. We also have a number of members who want to understand more about RS, prebiotics, etc., but are daunted by the twists and turns this thread takes.

    How about this: When posting in the RS thread, directly relate each topic to RS and/or gut, microbiome health etc. This will make the connections much easier to follow. And, if there is something that is interesting, but only tangentially related, post it in another thread with a link back to this thread.

    If you have comments or suggestions about the course of this thread or how to keep it readable, please send me a Conversation.

    Thanks,
    Sushi
     
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  16. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Not necessarily. Some glycoalkaloids are metabolized by the bacteria in your gut. It's entirely possible that your flora are now just robust enough and diverse enough to metabolize those trace glycoalkaloids for you. So, it's hard to really know for sure.
     
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  17. ariel

    ariel

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    I'm sorry to hear that you haven't had any benefits at all Sasha. I wonder if you are taking any probiotics yet? Maybe you have 'empty zoo cages' as Dr Grace calls them.
    From my understanding I think she recommends taking B Infantis and L plantarum for those severely immune compromised.
    See the comments in this post:
    http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.com.au/2014/03/gi-biohacking-basics-mild-havoc-or.html
    "For any autoimmune arthritis, rash or joint aches, usually some gentle weeding whilest seeding at the same time. Perhaps it is possible to 'crowd' out the Kleb nasties with prebiotics + SBOs but I think it will depend on the condition of the gut. AS doesn't mean low white counts. All probiotics (except potentially L plantarum or Bifido) are contraindicated if the white count is low or a person is diagnosed with immunodeficiency."
    Also: "The safe species are few but perhaps the safest one is L plantarum as a single strain probiotic, or combined with B infantis which have been used in neonates (against necrotizing colitis), NICU, ICU, ventilator infections, pre- and post-surgery, cancer and chemotherapy."

    In the same comments section she also notes that it is best to take Inulin/Fos and/or Green banana flour as the bifido species prefer that to potato starch.
    "I really like g banana flour -- it has soluble fos and inulin and other oligo fibers which propel off pathogens that adhere to the small intestines and help them to be eradicated. Please consider it. Also FOS and inulins feed Bifidobacter more than RS can feed Bifido. We need Bifido -- it is a potent anti-pathogen protector in the gut. It competes for binding sites and helps to aggressively eliminate the more resistant and pathogenic strains that are left behind after rounds of antibiotics."

    If you haven't already read it, this thread is really worth looking at:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/sulfite-sulfate-and-ammonia-questions.27211/
    Vegas' posts are fantastic and he makes a very good case for B Bifidum as well as Infantis.

    So right now I am thinking that the best way to proceed is to take B Infantis, B Bifidum, and L plantarum. And using either FOS/Inulin or G Banana flour for a while.
    When that has settled in I will add the SBOs and other forms of RS like Larch AB. (or maybe start the Larch earlier as it seems important -- will see)

    To my surprise I found the Natren B Infantis locally yesterday, and have the B Bifidum on order.
    Tried making yoghurt for the first time last night with the Infantis. It is nearly 24 hours and looks like milk still. Hopefully it will still have the same effect though.

    I still can't take more than 1 teaspoon of the potato starch. So making sure the right bacteria are there in the first place seems essential.
    I probably need to do some weeding have started taking some oregano oil, not sure if I should add other things. Basically hoping that the Bifidos will do it for me.
     
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  18. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Thanks, @ariel - I tried taking Prescript Assist a while back but it gave me a week-long run of very painful and debilitating sinus headaches (I usually get one or two a week but this was epic) and I had to stop. I then got a crop of cold sores for the first time in ages. Vegas (I think) took this to be potentially a positive sign of immune activation and that's possible - but I think I need to hold off adding new things in until I've got a clearer idea of the trend of the effects of what I'm already taking.

    I tried adding in liposomal Vit C five weeks ago, which I thought wouldn't interact with anything else and couldn't do any harm and I've just had the worst four weeks I've had for a long time. I've just stopped it. I'm wondering if I had a problem with the soy lecithin in it, even though it's "soyness" should have been minimal, given the processing. Now I'm kicking myself for confusing the picture (again).

    Thanks for this info, though - I've printed it off! It will come in handy when I start to experiment, further down the road.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2014
  19. ariel

    ariel

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    Hello,
    Funny I only recently added lipo c to my arsenal as well. I watched some videos on youtube and started making my own. Powerful stuff. I think it is amazing. Really helped my energy levels to a new level that I haven't felt in many years. It has helped so much that I could drop quite a few other things
    BUT for the first maybe two or so weeks I felt like crap. Kidneys and liver were killing me. Maybe I'm a bit of a masochist but everytime I do something where my body starts to really detox like that a part of me thinks 'yay! I'm not crazy and hypochondrical, there is something in me that shouldn't be there and it's being flushed out' -- that is in-between feeling sorry for myself.
    Coffee enemas have been my life saver in those situations. I only got onto it at the start of last year. I started just with half a teaspoon of coffee. (I do a salt water one to flush everything out first!)
    My liver was so congested or something my whole face swelled up. But I felt great! And I had taken slippery elm and other bits and pieces before.
    So when I've taken something that is detoxing me I find it is best to get it out of my system after however many hours and help the liver as much as possible. Once you help the liver, everything else can work. I honestly wished I'd started them years ago.

    ps - I use sunflower lecithin -- but it is all the toxins coming out that is affecting you, probably not the soy. I'd keep at, but that's me.
     
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  20. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Glad you had good effects - I didn't have any pain or anything to indicate kidney or liver problems - mainly a worsening in OI and malaise.

    Always hard to know if feeling worse is things getting worse, things getting better or just random variation.

    All I can think of to do is to go back to what I was doing when I had the brief improvement in OI (PS + psyllium + Amazing Grass + LDN + NK cell stuff), add nothing else in, and see if I can get the improvement back and then see if improvement continues.

    Too many variables! :confused:
     

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