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Nitric oxide and its possible implication in ME/CFS (Part 1 of 2)
Andrew Gladman explores the current and historic hypotheses relating to nitric oxide problems in ME/CFS. Part 1 of a 2-part series puts nitric oxide under the microscope and explores what it is, what it does and why it is so frequently discussed in the world of ME/CFS. Part 1 focuses...
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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    Like I just told Ripley, I was in a mood, they come over me.

    Did not intend to get us off track, however, just a brief break.
     
  2. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Violeta and Sushi like this.
  3. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Sushi likes this.
  4. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Is this the key we've been looking for?
     
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  5. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    I am "GG" for rs601338 so therefore I have the gene and am a Fucose secretor.

    @Vegas What product is your chitin polymer source? And which bacteria are the ones that create N-acetylgalactosamine?
     
  6. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Hi everyone,
    I have been doing the RS thing for a couple of weeks and it does seem to have some benefits. I am also interested in adding something like NAG or D Mannose. However, when I have done this in the past, I felt great at first, but then those supplements seemed to feed a pathogenic sinus thing. I have awful sinus issues. The NAG actually helped at first then I got worse. I also have lyme disease so maybe that is the reason these supplements didn't work. Are these safe to take with lyme disease? Or are these fueling some pathogenic bacteria in my sinuses or brain?
     
  7. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I will pm you on the first question.

    Quite a few organisms have the capacity to interconvert UDP-GlcNAc and UDP-GALNAc. I became interested in this when studying glucuronidation and learning that a genetic condition impairing this interconversion was associated with something that shared features with autism, including liver dysfunction and purkinje cell damage. This was of particular interest to me when trying to understand why my daughter's speech development completely halted after vaccination. (Today she doesn't shut up). I think there is a role for some of these organisms that has biological relevance to humans, although this is unproven. To answer your question, a number of Bacillus species, including subtilis, and some others that I have not seen in probiotics, but have noticed to be conspicuously diminished in some with ME/CFS, have this particular capability. It is probably expressed in other organisms that participate in the nitrogen cycle, so think dirt, legumes, root vegetables. The niche for these organisms is starting to make more sense to me, but there are obvious interrelationships with those organisms that similarly participate in this larger process. Using humic acid may act as a prebiotic, it may be helpful.
     
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  8. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    How did things go worse, specifically, if you are able to describe this?

    What sort of NAG product did you use?
     
  9. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    @Vegas When I took the NAG (750 mg-Jarrow brand) at first I felt amazing and my sinus swelling went down. However, after a week or two a couple of issues surfaced. One is that I got a sinus infection which seemed to get worse when I took the NAG. I tried to wash my sinuses with a netipot, which made the infection worse. I had to go on two rounds of antibiotics, and each time, if I tried going back on the NAG, I would start getting the bleeding and discolored mucus, etc. It was some kind of staph infection. The next thing that happened is that I would get aches in certain joints and in my neck that I associate with lyme symptoms. I have read that NAG feeds the lyme bacteria, so I got paranoid and stopped taking it when that happened.
    When I take the NAG, the beneficial effects are accompanied by a side effect of sweet smelling sweat. That always happens when I feel better and my body feels like it is working right. I feel like there is some sugar-related issue I have that is affecting my health and I am not sure how to fix it! I should also add that I get similar effects from D-mannose with my sinuses. But the D-mannose doesn't make me feel as good as the NAG
     
  10. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    Semantic clarification, as you seem to be confusing the matter.

    "GG" which I have means I have a functioning FUT2 gene meaning I am a fucose secretor.
    "AG" also would be a functioning FUT2 gene.

    This on the other hand means I do not have the gene for "norovirus resistance", as that is "AA" only. However in this particular context we don't care about norovirus resistance as we would rather be a fucose secretor to help support beneficial bacterial gut populations.

     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2014
  11. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    I have also tried experimenting with NAG. I tried large doses of 1 tsp. At first I thought it made me feel better, but then after a while my fatigue got worse. So I stopped it.

    I also experimented with D-Mannose in the past, but there seemed to be no beneficial effects.

    If you have Lyme I would avoid NAG. According to this link NAG is a critical nutrient for the Lyme bacteria so you are probably just feeding the lyme.

    Characterization of N -acetylglucosamine utilization by the Lyme disease spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi
    http://digitalcommons.uri.edu/dissertations/AAI3380537/
     
  12. Gemma

    Gemma

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    Here I agree. I need to collect some more info still, before advising anything. And each of you might be different, careful, people.

    The pathway is like this: Hyaluronic acid (your collagen and other tissues) get degraded by enzyme Hyaluronidase into smaller HA fragments (Acetylglucosamine). Not good.
    It might be that these fragments are irritating your immune system, they are a danger signal. Help! And serving who knows what more purposes and uses.
    My feeling would be that best is to stop the degradation by Hyaluronidase inhibitors, not supplementing anything.

    Have you seen Echinacea? Is it not the perfect combo of what you need?
     
  13. lizw118

    lizw118 Senior Member

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    Thanks Gestalt, Vegas and Gemma.
    What a bummer. NAG makes my sinus swelling go down, which is so rare, but in the end makes everything worse. Lyme disease is such a bummer. But does it stand to reason that because NAG feeds lyme, any other glyconutrient would also feed the lyme bacteria? I wonder if I could try some different ones. I feel like my brain needs sugar. Maybe (ironically) because the lyme depleted the NAG? I don't know.
     
  14. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Paradoxical and counter-intuitive, don't you think?

    I will readily accept your dismissal of this, but perhaps you initially experienced a heightened immune response versus a new infection and the ABs you used induced a true infection. In other words, sometimes a sinus cavity develops inflammation that is secondary to the immune response and patients treat it with AB's and more significant infections develop. Afterwards, you may have just "flamed" the immune response with the NAG. Do you have marked airborne allergies to mold & dust? Bleeding and discolored mucus sounds like the mucin layer is shedding, and this would not be coincidental.

    Joints: been there, done this. Lyme? I don't think so. Do you have any notable food intolerances?

    Sweet smelling sweat=acetaldehyde. I would venture a guess that this is dehydrogenation at work.

    Mannose, is a hexose sugar. I know bifidobacteria do special things with these.

    Sorry, I don't want to give you any advice that might make you worse. Perhaps you can send me some more info, and we can get some input from others.
     
  15. Gemma

    Gemma

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    Okay, I am looking at it as feeding. What do you feed NAG to? First IT is very happy and stops eating you. You feel better. IT becomes bigger and starts growing even more. And IT is hungrier. What then?
     
  16. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    The fatigue effects I felt from taking NAG may have been fueling my candida issue. Consider the following:

    "GlcNAc signaling is under investigation in the human fungal pathogen Candida albicans because it is a potent inducer of hyphal growth, whereas other sugars are not (2). GlcNAc induces two sets of responses that have significance for understanding the mechanisms of pathogenesis. One pathway stimulates C. albicans to switch from budding to hyphal growth and to induce expression of virulence genes." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3190674/
     
  17. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Cluster XIVa butyrate-producing colonic bacteria.
     
  18. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I'll have to look at this article later, but NAG is already widely available in the GIT because it is contained in the cell-membranes of most gram-positive organisms. These cell membranes are loaded with stuff that stimulates immunity, neutralizes toxins (like LPS), and protects us. NAG would be available to the mucin layer of the GIT because there is such rapid cell turnover, although I suppose it would be available in lesser quantities in the small intestine where there is considerably less microbial density.

    What type of NAG supplement did you use? Do you know from what source it is derived?
     
  19. Gemma

    Gemma

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  20. Gemma

    Gemma

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