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Ergonomics and ME/CFS: Have You Hurt Yourself Without Knowing It?
Having a chronic illness like ME/CFS can make it hard to avoid problems that come from bad ergonomics. Jody Smith has learned some lessons the hard way ...
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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    I think it happens more than people think. I have a relative who thinks all carbs are created pretty much equal. So, she avoids bread and pasta, and just eats small portions of complex carbs, maybe once a day and, wait for it... has gut issues.

    Anyone who gives up bread, pasta and sweets (which happens a lot when people try to be "healthy") is at risk at becoming accidentally VLC (<50g of carbs) unless they make a real genuine effort to eat complex carbs.

    Non-starchy carbs don't count. They aren't net carbs — you burn more calories digesting them than you can extract energy from them.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
    South likes this.
  2. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Could this be because they have messed their guts up with the high-carb diet? Mine was certainly in a bad way before I cut them!
  3. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    For sure. But being accidentally VLC isn't helping. :)
  4. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I think it's very hard to suddenly go VLC without huge effort. The urge to eat carbs is just too strong, IMHO. People avoiding refined starches for their health turn quickly to potatoes, corn, sweet potatoes, artichokes, chestnuts...the healthy cravings can get interesting! Even nuts have a surprising amount of carbs.

    I'm surprised that your relative, @Ripley, has managed to keep carb intake <50 by mistake. I've only ever met one person who could do this, and she does it on purpose. I don't disbelieve you, but I think it's very uncommon.
  5. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    I had a favorable response to direct NAG supplementation at one point (much less inflammation), but that effect is no longer repeatable.
  6. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Perhaps. Chris Kresser devoted a large portion of a recent podcast about people who accidentally go VLC and don't realize it. It happens. As a practitioner, he sees it a lot when people cut out grains. And non-starchy vegetables like artichokes are high in fiber, so they are good for your gut bugs, but they have very few net carbs (i.e. you basically burn through more calories extracting the carbs than you get from them).
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    It's also possible that the initiation of an autoimmune process alters the terrain of the gut due to your body's inability to fight off gut infections.
  8. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Fascinating.. Once again, everything comes back to...

    Bacteroides fragilis is an SBO from what I understand.
  9. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I don't know how I forgot to mention beans and fruit in my post. Eat a cantaloupe, and that's 45 carbs right there. I don't see how just cutting out grains can reduce carbs into dangerous territory, for people who aren't trying to lose weight through massive carb or calorie reduction.

    Also, did you mean that VLC is <50 net carbs? This would change the picture somewhat, but would still make very little difference in people substituting potatoes, beans, and fruit for bread and pasta.
  10. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Do people often really eat entire cantaloupes every day?

    What can I tell you. It happens. (Listen to the episode if you don't believe me).

    Not everyone can tolerate beans. Not everyone eats tons of fruit. And yes.... net carbs. As I've been trying to say, non-starchy vegetables don't provide much, if any, energy for glycosylation. You often expend more energy digesting them than you get from them.

    I think if someone eats enough fruit every day, and some complex carbs and perhaps some nuts, they are probably fine. But, I'd also call that a well-balanced diet.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
  11. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I kept my carb intake under 50 grams for many months but my teeth would start chattering, and I would shake, sweat, and stutter if I didn't eat every 15 minutes during much of the day. My body catabolized every bit of fat I had. Once I crashed the GIT though, there was no going back. On the positive side, I got to learn a lot about endocrinology, with no help from the endocrinologist. I hate to generalize, but Endocrinology training apparently hasn't changed since 1900.

    Clearly mine was an exceptional response to a VLC diet. I think risk factors include high energy metabolism and impaired colonic energy potential. I was unable to "harvest" energy and maintain steady glucose concentrations, and a stress-hormone response was constantly rescuing me. This does not go on forever, as your body will downregulate energy production. When your metabolic needs fall so does your need for carbohydrates.

    You are so right about the cravings, but they serve a purpose even if they simultaneously perpetuate an undesirable condition. I think a GIT program has the potential to smooth this out over time, but the hormonal/neurotransmitter vacillations brought about by this process of defeating the pathogens leads to temporary exacerbation.
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  12. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Sounds reasonable. There is also a bit of a trend wherein some "auto-immune" conditions are now being classified as disorders of innate immunity.

    It's accessibility may depend upon the form, and its effects in all likelihood depend upon the greater microbiome. I am speaking of it's ability to be used by microbiota. You may need a chemical key and/or another organism to unlock the benefits it could provide. Hopefully we are getting closer to understanding all those different parts needed to make this process work and do so with greater tolerability.
  13. Jay franklin

    Jay franklin

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    I don't have CFS/ME but I have been following this thread (along with several other threads) closely for many months and thought I would chime in.

    In order to lose weight and improve my health, I went very low carb. I was under 50 grams of carb for about 16 months, under 40 grams almost every day. I lost over 50 pounds and for the last six months of VLC descended into a crash unlike anything else that had happened to me before. My formerly low level brain fog, insomnia, anxiety, depression, high BP and pulse all became significantly worse. By the end of that period I couldn't even watch TV, reading was difficult to impossible, and most of my energy was spent dragging myself into work for a few hours of limited or fake work each week. My slow recovery, which began in March 2013, resulted in being able to work the last two months of 2013 at a passable clip.

    I wanted to chime in because starting in February of this year, and because of this forum, I started resistant starch and GOS, and have subsequently experimented with several probiotics and prebiotics. I have seen significant improvement. Anxiety is way down, sleep is better, and high BP and pulse have generally normalized. It has been a little bumpy at times, although nothing like how it has been for many here. Without Vegas's explanations I would never have understood the pain that has come along with the improvement. In fact, without Vegas's remarkable framework for the possible benefits, I do not know if I would have ever experimented in the first place. I was, to be charitable, underwhelmed by many of the people promoting resistant starch elsewhere on the internet.

    I would note a few small items. I had a painful couple of days after taking Align. For me, arabinogalactan supplementation was too activating, although I may try it again at some point. I have had a couple of dodgy afternoons this week and am wondering if it was the AOR, the VSL, or just the accumulation of effects over time.

    And one observation. There was a short-lived low carb forum that I participated in well over a year ago. The forum was littered with stories of people who could not sleep and were experiencing high anxiety, crashes, and had elevated BP and pulse. I think the VLC crash is a relatively common story.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
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  14. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Welcome @Jay franklin and thank you for sharing your story. Everything that may bring the matter into perspective is big help.
    I renew my thanks to @Ripley who started this thread and brings so much interesting information, and to @Vegas who contributes in such an illuminating way.
    Lots of good wishes to all, I am grateful more than I can say.:hug:

    I notice that this RS + probiotics experiment makes me feel more emotions. I would no say that I am more emotive in the sense more easily destabilized by sudden emotions, it makes me feel my emotions very strongly and deeply and more often. I am bowled over by gratitude to you all at the moment.:balloons:
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  15. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    And if we want to reduce yeasts and increase bacteria in our gut, we might use a traditional method too.
    Bacteria thrive when they are agitated. Fungus don't like that too much.

    In the same way, walking or doing any exercise involving pressing on the bowels should increase the bacterial count.
    For example nauli :


    If you don't understand how she does it, it is explained step by step here.

    The easier but less efficient way to do it would be to walk around lifting the knees up as much as you can. Though I think nauli works on other things too.

    Maybe being a couch potato life encourages fungi rather than bacteria and this is part of our problem?
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2014
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  16. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
    And here it is, the pendulum for dummies.
    I bet a lot of people will have quite a few surprises, discovering what is in their food.
    Do notice that the noobs will only have access to the "nutritional facts" :rofl:.

    As you may have noticed, I feel quite energetic today! Time for another serving of the dreadful fava bean salad! I have made one this morning, it is calling me through the kitchen door.
    Should I enjoy this temporary well-deserved surge of power or should I nip it in the bud by attacking head front the horrid mycowhatsoever?
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014
  17. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I was looking for a convinient source of all of them. I found this list of sources:

    http://www.glyconutrientsreference.com/whatareglyconutrients/naturalsourcesofglyconutrients/


    There are also glyconutrients mixes available, such as this one:

    http://www.custommedicine.com.au/shop/products/Glyconutrient-Food-Supplement-120g.html

    It seems acacia gum is an excellent source of arabinogalactan and galactose, perhaps this could be substituted for the larch extract? It certainly is much cheaper.
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014
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  18. ariel

    ariel

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    Dear all,

    Thank you so much for this amazing thread and all the information contained within it.
    I stumbled across it over the weekend and spent some time trying to quickly scan the entire thread. I don't know that much of it really sank in... it's all a bit jumbled up in here!

    I did manage to get some potato starch from the health food store (Lotus brand for those in Australia), put it in some water, and it sank, so pretty sure it is the right stuff. I took just a quarter of a teaspoon two days running, then took a break and took half a teaspoon today.
    Gosh the first two days I was high as a kite! Sooooo happy!
    Then didn't feel so good, and today it was hard to tell as I ate something bad last night, and so felt a bit off all day, so don't think it was the PS.

    Anyway I really feel like this is a huge game changer for me, and am trying not to get too excited. But Thank You again.

    I have had CFS since about 1997 (gosh, that long?!) it was fairly low level, and then in 2008 I caught the flu and crashed badly. I could feel it in my bones. Couldn't really walk and just the thought of lifting my arms to wash my hair made me want to cry. I have tried many remedies since then, all very hit and miss. I am much much better, but still a little way to go. Hopefully this will be at least one more piece of the puzzle.

    I will be ordering some of the probiotics recommended from Iherb, but I also wanted to ask if anyone here has heard of Effective Microorganisms (EM) http://www.effectivemicro-organisms.co.uk/
    I have been using it on and off for a few years. You can drink it, water your plants with it and clean your house with it. The basic principle is that in any environment there are microorganisms, the more negative they are the more polluted. So they have been using EM to clean up rivers.
    EM may be another probiotic tool to add to the list, and I wonder if it is somehow similar to some of the soil-based probiotics that have been recommended such as the Garden of Life (Primal Defense) one.

    I have a quick question, I know that many are taking the PS 5 hours before bed, but I can't remember the reason for not taking it first thing in the morning instead.

    Thank you!
  19. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Welcome @ariel!
    Very interesting that bit about EM.
    PS 5 hours before sleep : I think this may give more dreams, thus most probably boosting melatonin.
    Be well!
  20. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    This is all extremely interesting @adreno!:thumbsup:

    Now this is not easy to get, but skate cartilage might do the trick. I used to love crunching on it as a child. And monkfish must have it too (perfect combination in the recipe I just gave of monkfish a l'Armoricaine, with chitin from the shrimp shells and Vit. K2 from the shrimp heads).
    I wonder. It all comes down it seems to the molecular size. Bigger size has different effects. Smaller size too. I don't know about the size of acacia gum.

    In the meantime, if we get too successful, that is if farts become too much of a problem, never mind, technology has a solution : http://myshreddies.com
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2014

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