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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    @Ripley ,

    PS is refined. So what is the difference between eating that and eating a gluten-free bread or pasta which is made from refined starches? Yes, it's cooked or baked, but so is the white rice and potato we eat, which is mostly starch and water. I don't understand.

    I also eat small amounts of sugar in dark chocolate and pickled vegetables. Is that really any worse than the fructose I get from eating a banana, for example? It seems odd to me.
  2. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    You don't get any energy from raw PS. In it's raw state it's purely a prebiotic. Nothing more.

    If the gluten-free product were just potato starch, water, eggs and butter, it would be okay. But that's almost never the case. Most "gluten free" products are full of yeast, industrial seed oils, brown rice flour, sugars, nut flours, etc. They have toxins, etc. and therefore can't be considered safe for everyone. For instance, the yeast alone would probably not be great for people with Candida.

    You can certainly eat a refined gluten free carb if you want to, but the goal is try and get most of your carbs from safe starches (and a few sugary roots).

    No. That's fine. Dark chocolate is fine. A banana is technically a "treat" but I would still eat one every day for the potassium (as the author does). I think the problem comes in when you try to get most of your carbs from fruits and/or refined carbs (even gluten free ones) because you wouldn't be supporting your flora with any fermentable fibers. Though, I suppose that's where RS would help fill in some gaps. The thing most critics forget is that potatoes are probably the most nutritious whole vegetable on the planet.
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
    adreno likes this.
  3. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    For me there was definitely a difference between a gluten-free and a Paleo/PHD way of eating. I was gluten-free for 2.5 years prior to PHD. I lost about 40 pounds after eating PHD. Gluten-free alone was still causing me to retain fat tissue. Most likely it was the high omega-6, and possibly rancid, vegetable oils.
    adreno likes this.
  4. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Chocolate is built into the stem of the PHD graphic :)
  5. Lou

    Lou Senior Member

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    I dunno, Ripley, with no knowledge of diets, daily caloric intake (never figured it), macronutrients, etc,. that chronometer.com is tough to digest, get started.

    Don't expect you to spoon feed me the information, I'll keep trying to learn something of it. In the meantime, I'm going to eat less red meat and refined carbs while adding in a good amount of potatoes, white rice, butter, coconut oil, and other foods I see suggested on this thread.

    The RS seemed such a simple thing to try, but this is getting to be a tad complicated. Well, for me, it is (doesn't take that much).
  6. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Sorry about that. If it makes you feel any better, I found it to be incredibly confusing when I first started weighing my food. I finally figured it out just by trying to get to a PHD target of 150g of starchy carbs/day. And that's when I really started feeling better. Even if you can't figure out how to set up cronometer.com you can enter in foods/weights into the tool and instantly see how many grams of carbs each one has based on various weights or volume.

    Another way to ballpark carbs in a meal is to just ask WolframAlpha, like this. As you can see, a 1/4 cup of mashed potatoes only has 9.2 grams of carbohydrates. (Which means that you need to eat a lot more than that to get to 150g of carbs/day.)

    So, that's the "easy" way to ballpark it. if you're still curious.

    To put this in perspective. To get to the target of 150g of carbs (for an average 2000 calorie consumption) you would need to consume:

    1.5 cups of mashed potatoes = 55g of carbs
    1 cup of cooked rice = 55g of carbs
    1 medium beet = 8g of carbs
    1 large banana = 31g of carbs
    =============================
    TOTAL CARBS = 149g carbs

    So, if you dont want to complicate things, just use the above ballpark as a mental guide, and follow something relatively close to this simple graphic. As you've already figured out, by eating more starches and fat, you won't need to eat as much meat. Favor the fatty cuts of meat and you'll be eating less protein without even realizing it.
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
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  7. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Some other good sources of resistant starch are green bananas and plantains. Doesn't sound too appealing except for perhaps dehydrated plantains. Food sources list here.
  8. PathogenKiller

    PathogenKiller

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    My doctor runs a few tests in house. I guess ammonia needs to be run pretty quickly after collecting or within a certain time period.
  9. South

    South Senior Member

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    @PathogenKiller I look forward to hearing how you do on MOS.

    If you would be so kind as to post your experience later, perhaps on this forum called "The Gut, De MeirLier..." it would be most helpful. I'm not trying to hijack this thread though (the one one resistant starch); I can watch the forum for any new thread about MOS if you or anyone chooses to start a new thread about it.

    As someone with a longstanding yeast problem too, I've struggled to find any prebiotic that may help me without causing yeast flareups. I can't even take psyllium, the common fiber supplement, without getting more yeast symptoms.

    The raw potato starch idea is on hold for me at the moment; I may try it again very slowly later.
  10. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I seem to better tolerate RS (2 ts) and Prescript-Assist (2 caps) now, after 4-5 days. Still have a lot of gas, but headache, stomach ache and gerd is settling down. I do feel kinda wired though, is this normal?
  11. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    I am sorry in advance if this question is not typically a resistant starch one... but, I feel a little bit lost.
    I have been following a somewhat paleo diet for years, but didn't get enough good results. I thought then - according to the Specific Carbohydrates Diet (SCD) - that I had to drop all source of complex carbs. This includes starches.
    Is the SCD a wrong idea for us?
    As I said (and sorry for the bad English),I feel lost : paleo, PHD, SCD... Once again I have to see the things completely differently... or perhaps I didn't get the whole idea with the PHD ?
    I understand that my concerns are a little bit basic for most of you, but I would be very grateful if someone could make this point clearer for me. Thanks a lot!
  12. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I think that it may depend on whether/to what extent you are gluten-sensitive. My weight started falling off as soon as I went gluten-free. I was still using olive oil for cooking, and spreading margarine that was high in omega-6. Switching to coconut oil much later didn't make any really obvious difference except that my skin seemed to become softer and smoother.
  13. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    No problem, Hanna. Specific Carbohydrates Diet (SCD) is a "gut healing diet". It is a very sound diet for gut healing and I think it's great. If it works well for you, keep doing what you're doing.

    However, not everyone does well on a "gut healing diet" over the long term. The more we learn and discover about gut flora, the more evidence we begin to see that the SCD and GAPS (and other gut healing diets) intentionally to "starve" our flora, and starving your good bacteria probably isn't the best long term strategy if your goal is to recover your health. In other words, it's difficult to grow a healthy microbiota if you don't get good gut flora in place (with probiotics) and feed them what they want to eat, which is prebiotics.

    The PHD is a very balanced diet that was designed for long term use, longevity, disease prevention and to cure disorders and diseases and it incorporates these prebiotic foods as well as nourishment for your organs and immune system. And what happens on the PHD — among other things — is that the good gut flora get fed fermentable fibers (prebiotics) and this allows them to start up Butyrate production. Butyrate and other Short Chain Fatty Acids (SCFAs) generated in your colon fixes a lot of problems. But it also creates a beneficial acidic environment in your digestive tract that kills off unwanted pathogens.

    This doesn't mean you should run out and start eating lots of prebiotic foods tomorrow. But, I think eating more "safe starches" is a good way to transition to a more balanced long term diet, like the PHD, if you can handle it.

    In your case, I would recommend reading Chris Kresser's Personal Paleo Code — which is a brand new book that was written to be a more customized version of the PHD. He designed it as a way to help people, like you, use a "gut-healing" protocol and then transition slowly to a PHD-type diet.
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  14. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Of course, we all have differences. I'm fairly gluten sensitive. I did lose some weight when I eliminated gluten, maybe 10 to 15 pounds or so. My reason for the change was acid reflux, stomach and intestinal pain. All of that was gone within the first week of eliminating gluten. And bonus, a couple of months later I noticed I wasn't waking up at night with panic attacks. That used to happen several nights a week.
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  15. PathogenKiller

    PathogenKiller

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  16. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Good advice from Ripley. I'll second the recommendation for Personal Paleo Code. I'm just about finished with it, easier read than PHD for most I would think.

    I don't believe you stated why you were doing SCD, but there are other approaches that are contrary to the bacteria starving way of SCD/GAPS. Dr. BG has a SIBO/SIFO protocol on her site which is based on building up the gut bacteria instead of tearing it down. Also uses resistant starch.
    Hanna likes this.
  17. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Richard, on that last podcast I linked to, said he has found that cycling 2 days of taking RS and then 2 days off with no RS, and then repeating that 4 day cycle a few times fixed a similar problem he was having (remember, he has GERD as well). He's also mentioned this a few times in the comments on his site. For instance...

    Again, being sure to experiment with different kinds of dosing (water only, with or without fermented foods/meals, without other fibrous foods, etc).
  18. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Maybe not suitable for people with d-lactic acidosis then?
  19. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    @Ripley : thank you for your advice. I begin to understand how all this is articulated. I am going to educate myself more and read Kresser's book.
    @dmholmes : thank you too for your help. In fact, I began to take interest in the SCD after I realised that each time I was eating some plain commercial (and bio) yogurt, I began to experience some gut pain. I thought it was linked to the lactose, and made the link with the theory of complex carbs causing health issues.
    I admit it is not very scientific, rather anecdotal. As I also got pbs with legumes... so I draw some conclusion (early???) that maybe it was really a problem coming from digesting complex carbs.
    That's how I got some interest in the SCD...
  20. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    I would think you're right. I am seeing researchers are already experimenting with RS and d-lactic acidosis and hypothesizing that increased fermentation of malabsorbed carbs would lead to headaches and mental confusion may be a sign of "short bowel syndrome" and thus d-lactate acidosis. I'm not a doctor, but maybe someone else more qualified than me can comment on that.

    That would be quite a shame since butyrate and SCFAs is something everyone seems to need more of.
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2014
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