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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Perhaps I remembered wrong, this study found no change:

    But:

    [Melatonin reduces cortisol response to ACTH in humans].
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
  2. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    The Examine.com cites your first-cited study and many others, although not your second one. Important perhaps to bear in mind that some studies have found reduced ACTH in people with ME/CFS, which could account at least partly for the cortisol abnormalities. Many of us seem to have had the Synacthen test (as have I), which involves administering synthetic ACTH to measure the cortisol response, but it seems to be inappropriate in ME/CFS because we don't have enough of our own ACTH, so measuring our cortisol response to ACTH is pretty pointless! We tend to test normal so that the doctors conclude that there is nothing wrong with our cortisol secretion.

    We also tend to respond more strongly to many interventions than people without ME/CFS, so this needs to be borne in mind when reading studies that use high doses of melatonin (e.g. 100mg!). I only take 5mg, and many people take considerably less.

    I guess it will also be important to ascertain whether or not someone is deficient in a substance before testing supplementation.
  3. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    A friend of mine, Gemma (who often comments on FTA and has been heavily researching enzymatic breakdown of starches) had a few questions/ideas for you guys:

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  4. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    I'd like to ask what people who are trying this what their diets are like besides consuming the prebiotic foods. I'm Specifically, I'm curious about starch and carb consumption. I was on a generally low-starch diet for a while, which helped some fatigue symptoms. I then started experimenting with RS, and then shortly after with adding high-starch foods regularly (potatoes, rice, corn flour). Actually I have been quite addicted to carbohydrates in the past few months.

    My fatigue, toxicity, and immune-activation symptoms have increased greatly since starting to consume all of these starches. I have recently experienced mold exposure, so this possibly could be causing these symptoms as well. I have tried to eliminate starches on a temporary basis as an experiment to see if these symptoms decrease, but the addiction is quite strong and it has been a struggle. I am currently trying again (this is day 1).

    I am curious, though, for people that are experimenting with these prebiotics, what your diets are like.
  5. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    So my questions: Is this "addiction" manifested by specific carbohydrate cravings and/or adverse symptoms when you withhold carbohydrates for a duration of time. Also, do you get any sense that you have altered your gut organisms?
  6. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    1. I feel a high (contentment, relaxation) when I'm eating carbs and shortly after their consumption, with a corresponding decrease in mood afterwards (fatigue, irritability, immune activation). I used to have an addiction to marijuana with similar highs and lows, including the immune activation during the "low period". I have been diagnosed with bipolar in the past, and I have read that some bipolar patients benefit from ketogenic or low-carb diets.

    2. I can't say for sure that I have, although it seems likely. Since I started consuming RS and then the starches shortly afterwards, I have had more frequent bowel movements where before tended towards constipation.

    I am going to attempt returning to a low-starch diet and manage the cravings to see if this has any effect on my fatigue and immune activation. I'm of course unsure of the mechanism in play, but I am considering the starches are causing too much fermentation which is producing an increase in gut toxicity. I would also guess that as opposed to these prebiotics which the "good" bacteria may prefer over the "bad", that the starches I've been consuming are feeding both equally, or primarily the "bad".

    I'd like to hear from others too how they are faring with high starch/carb foods.
  7. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Reishi is a good source of fucose. I had contemplated this along with trehalose as a complementary prebiotic, These sugars typically have other effects too, including acting as bacteriocidic agents, so they presumably kill some microorganisms and cause adverse symptoms.

    I don't find too many examples "natural" immunostimulants that are not also prebiotics or bioenergetic enhancers. These compounds all seem to get their potency because of their effect on the microbiome. Echinacea is rich in arabinogalactan. Seaweed is a great source of not just fucose, but other nutrients reserved for our microbes, especially those in the colon. Aloe Vera is great for the GIT, but it's anti-inflammatory effects cannot be separated from its role as a prebiotic rich in some of the key polysaccharides for nurturing the colonic microbiome, like mannose and galactose.
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  8. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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  9. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Interesting. So, looks like maybe Gemma touched on a piece of the puzzle. These essential sugars (like fucose) are known as "glyconutrients" in the field of glycobiology:

    The in vitro immunomodulatory effects of glyconutrients on peripheral blood mononuclear cells of patients with chronic fatigue syndrome

    Glyconutritional Implications in Fibromyalgia and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome

    We've touched on glycans (which are usually metabolized by flora) earlier in the thread.
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  10. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    So how do we make sure that we get all necessary glyconutrients - would reishi provide this (Vegas mentioned this as a source of fucose)?

    These are the ones mentioned in the article above:

  11. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I don't think we need to consume glucose. We make it from other things, also store it as glycogen which we can release quickly when necessary, and a lot of foods contain it already. We can't use glucose efficiently (Julia Newton found that the muscles of people with ME/CFS do not increase their uptake of glucose when activity is increased, unlike people without ME/CFS). This means that our blood glucose levels can be very prone to becoming excessive, increasing the risks of insulin resistance/diabetes, damage to blood vessels, etc.

    That's why low-carb diets are probably better for many/most of us - they release glucose more slowly and steadily, avoiding spikes and troughs.
  12. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    You are already using one of them. Arabinogalactan has galactose. There are algal sources of n-acetylgalactosamine, and it is found in shark cartilage. I'm more interested in re-establishing microbial synthesis of this. I'm getting my n-acetylglucosamine from a chitin polymer source. The latter two polysaccharides are particularly important in maintaining the intestinal lining and are intricately related. In fact I was curious if N-acetyglucosaminadase could be a marker for cancer, AIDS, and ME/CFS just like NaGalase is given their interrelationship. NaGalase is N-Acetylgalactosaminidase a glycoside hydrolase involved in the catabolism of n-acetylgalactosamine. N-acetylgalactosaminidase is the enzyme paired with N-acetylgalactose. It is my hypothesis that the marked elevation of the human and structurally similar NaGalase is a product of the collapse of a functional analog derived from our bacteria, but I'm just guessing.

    As I mentioned there are some more benefits of soil based organisms that I am exploring, and one of them relates to the snzymatic capacity to synthesize N-acetylgalactosamine. Our microbes have extensive capabilities involved in maintaining these cells, you just need to find the right combinations, I happen to think that these prebiotics may be essential. I'm having good results, but this is some strong stuff.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
  13. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Yes, but not just hexoses and other sugars, but I think the amino-acid bound polysaccharides have particular significance. There are numerous implications. If we provide the right prebiotics, those organisms having particular aminoglycosides should provide a complementary role in mitigating the effects of pathogens. When cellular lysis of commensals occurs, the polysaccharides that become available from the breakdown of our own good bacteria participate in inhibiting the growth of pathogenic bacteria and they also can mitigate the toxicity of lipopolysaccharide. At least this is true of many commensals, and it certainly contributes to the difficulty in restoring physiologic conditions. Some have used these lysates, but this is a natural process that protects us everyday...until we lose some of those organisms vital to maintaining these defenses against the toxicity of pathogens.

    Also, I am intrigued by the role these compounds may play in stimulating the synthesis of components of the cytoskeleton. The tight junctions of the intestinal epithelium are anchored in the cell by something called filamentous actin or f-actin. I don't exactly know what role the bacterial organisms play in regenerating actin binding proteins, but I bet there is one. F-actin is disrupted by unchecked oxidative stress and it is specifically mediated by upregulation of inducible NOS.

    The hell with geeky science stuff though, these compounds are totally remodeling my intestinal epithelium. Talk about a missing key.
  14. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I don't know how much help I can offer with this, because I lost my craving for carbohydrates a very long time ago, and I eat a low to moderate intake of these today without any problem. This loss of the carb addiction was correlated to about a year of very-low carbohydrate consumption. Unfortunately, there was a concomitant inability to tolerate any carbs that came with this VLC diet, which I think was caused by the decline of the SCFA synthesis. You cannot eat just proteins and fats, you have to have fermentable stuff for the colon, at least if you have an already compromised microbiome. This was the mistake I made after having been on a 4000-5000 calorie carbohydrate-intensive diet that I needed to keep up with the calories I was burning. I would not recommend severe carb restriction, but I think you will benefit from substituting grains for plant fibers. Do it slowly. Also, I find that 1.5 grams or so of Omega 3's is very helpful in stabilizing mood.

    I suspect that if you want to modify this neurotransmitter-driven desire for high glycemic carbs you may benefit from some prebiotics that influence bacterial populations in the small intestine where the glucose is taken up. The high glycemic stuff is not making it to the colon. I will defer to others experiences, but I had an intense carb craving and as my bacterial populations (presumably) shifted, the craving greatly subsided. Actually, I think my life-long craving was for complex carbs not simple carbs, but I went against this craving and cut down to 50 grams or less and my microbiome and I both collapsed. You can favorably impact lactic acidosis very quickly with this simple carb restriction, but you don't want to shift to far towards protein.
  15. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    You're generalizing. Some people do terribly on a low carb diet — they wind up with glucose deficiencies and immune issues. Happens a lot more than you might think.

    Not everyone can make all the glucose they need to glycosylate all 2,000,000 different kinds of glycans used in the human body (known as the Human Glycome). A large majority of our calories go towards maintaining this glycome. When there is a glucose deficiency, it's because the body is unable to make enough, and many glycans stop getting produced. This is why many low VLCers get mucus deficiencies — their bodies can't produce enough mucin a major glycan in the human body.

    I agree that complex carbs are best though.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
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  16. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Complex carbs are the way to go. But therein lies the paradox. Everyone automatically thinks that eating a "lot" of complex carbs should equate to a high carb/starch diet. It really doesn't. Eating a whopping pound of complex carbs each day (as the PHD recommends) would bring one to roughly 150g of carbs, or only 30% of calories as carbs in a typical 2,000 calorie diet. That's not a lot of carbs. It really isn't. Complex carbs are often mostly water. Eat those complex carbs with a few pats of butter and the glycemic index is brought down considerably.

    It's the refined carbs that cause people to eat too many carbs. SAD is typically 60% carbs. It would be nearly impossible to consume that equivalent in complex carbs (2 pounds of potatoes!!).

    Honestly, most people would have a difficult time trying to get to a very moderate carb level of 30% of calories from complex carbs — it's an enormous quantity when you see it on your plate.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
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  17. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Do you guys know your Fucose genetics?

    Note, it's a bit of a paradox in that it's the non-secretors that are immune to Norovirus. One of those gene mutations that were intended to be "beneficial" in some situations.

    So, it's a tradeoff.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
  18. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I'm heterozygous for rs601338.
  19. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Maybe just try incorporating some seaweed into the diet and see how you feel...

    GENE COPY NUMBERS, AUTISM AND SEAWEED
    By Peter D'Adamo

    It's worth pointing out that some people think the 8 "essential" glyconurients are a sham, so make your own call.
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2014
  20. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    As I've said before, I don't advocate a VERY low-carb diet. By 'low carb' I guess I mean lower than is common in modern diets, which are ridiculously high in bread, cakes, biscuits and sugar among other things.

    I don't think that many people have a problem reducing carbs from the very high levels common in 'modern diets', do they?

    As a vegan, I probably get a plentiful supply of complex carbs.
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