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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    @jstefl

    Whatever RS is doing down there, it continues to prevent PEM for me and help with OI. I don't notice an effect on sleep though. I am pleased with this.

    Best,
    Sushi
     
    snowathlete likes this.
  2. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Hi John,
    On the plus side, my urine doesn't smell so bad, but besides that I look and feel like crap.

    How much starch are you eating on the perfect diet?
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2014
  3. jstefl

    jstefl Senior Member

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    I vary the amount of starch according to what I am going to do that day. I remember reading somewhere that it is beneficial, and I am still somewhat concerned about gas in public. Less RS usually means less gas.

    I am wondering how long it will be before improvements appear, especially in the energy department. The RS has been more like a roller coaster ride than a straight line. Some days are much better than others. I have been trying to find a relationship between how I feel, and what I did the previous day, but so far, I haven't found one. It would be great to be able to preplan for a good day.

    John
     
  4. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    It took me about 1.5 months of 4tbsp of PS a day before gas subsided.

    I received very little gains in the energy department with RS despite improved metabolism, gut function, etc. At first I became more tired, then figured out taking 5 hours before bed instead of right before bed helped considerably and reduced the fatigue. Still no improvement in overall energy though.

    I have however seen dramatic gains in overall energy from taking the prebiotic larch arabinogalactan. I take 20g a day of this early in the day in addition to the 3-4tbsp of PS i take 5 hrs before sleep.

    Your body uses two types of fuel for energy. Glucose and Fatty acids.

    My speculation is as follows. RS primarily benefits you by increasing butyrate levels. Butryate is energy primarily for your colon cells and gut. Stomach too I think.

    The larch on the other hand primarily ferments into propionate which appears to be primarily energy for your liver cells IIRC.

    I also take Pectin which primarily ferments into acetate which is a precursor to compounds used in the citric acid cycle providing energy to your mitochondria.

    The point is different prebiotics ferment into different SCFA's which then serve different functions and therefore provide energy for different tissues/cells in the body. Much of this has not been adequately studied so we don't know what does what with any great degree of precision. Butryate has been studied the most however with almost exclusivity to the colon. Anecdotally however larch gives me the most mental energy something RS didn't do. I don't really know why but, it may be something you may want to try. Based on my experience I doubt you will get the energy gains you desire on RS alone so try not to stick all your eggs in one basket. Experiment!

    I take up to half a dozen prebiotics throughout the day....sometimes at once! GOS, FOS, Larch, RS, Plantain, Apple Pectin, Inulin, several dozen Polyphenols, NAG, Beta-glucan, etc.
     
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  5. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Well, I believe the joint stiffness is due to the calcitriol. I would give Green Banana Flour or Green Plantain Flour a try. Or at least do a mix of those with PS. Barry Farms makes a good Green Plantain Flour and WeDo makes Green Banana Flour. Incidentally Green Banana Flour makes me feel a little ill, but I think it may be a good thing and I can tolerate more and more over time (and keep in mind I don't have ME/CFS, so these prebiotics can effect nearly everyone in some way). I believe Dr. Grace BG says the Green flours supposedly detach pathogens, especially in conjunction with L Plantarum. Honestly, PS is nice and simple if you can tolerate it, but I think most people will do well with trying a blend of other prebiotics — particularly if PS isn't tolerated that well.
     
  6. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Talking about anti-microbials, I been wondering if Olive Leaf Extract could be a good choice, as it has some interesting properties. It is known to be antibacterial, but does it equally target all kinds of gut flora? Some studies would suggest it that is not the case:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19135874

    This study even suggest OLE can be prebiotic:
    http://www.pjbs.org/pjnonline/fin1782.pdf
     
    Violeta, MeSci, Sidereal and 2 others like this.
  7. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    @Gestalt
    I just had a look at your Resistant Starch Guide and I found it so well put together. It is very helpful to find all this information in the same place and presented in such a clear fashion. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

    @adreno
    I have wondered about anti-microbials too, especially about curcumin, or should I say turmeric, since it seems to help us. Is it a threat to repopulating with good bacteria? I wonder. Please someone help.

    For the moment, all is going fairly well. We only take 1 teaspoon PS a week and 25 g dried green plantain every day, + a spoonful of the Plantarum mousse from time to time.
    There is a vague tension, like not being in peace, most probably some die-off happening in the background.
    Sleep is fine, but not exceptional.

    I mentioned the end of my husband's eczema. I have something positive to report too : from day to day I feel my gums getting tighter and my teeth getting smoother. The gums are not perfect yet. In the beginning they would get better for two days, then worse for three days with a bit of blood. Now, it seems there are getting tighter all the time.
    There must be also a distinct drop in blood glucose because I keep losing very small pieces of skin which I had never noticed and that come unglued, leaving perfect skin underneath.

    I cannot comment on the energy as I have guests for Easter and am doing a lot with no problem, climbing mountains etc. Which I could do the other days, this is not new. Maybe I could not have done all this with the stress of having guests around and talking all day long. Maybe this is an improvement.

    Oh yes! There is also a reduced sensitivity to eating restaurant food. We went to eat outside (we never do this) on Saturday, and today Monday : no bad consequences so far!!! This is a big plus! But I am not trying to reiterate the experiment immediately though.

    Lots of good wishes to all!
    Thanks again to all the dedicated posters who are contributing. This is a big help!:thumbsup::balloons::thumbsup:
     
  8. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Does anyone else think that it may be helpful if people here without ME/CFS put a note to that effect in a signature? I worry that most people won't realise this, and so will assume that the health info reported is directly related/relevant to ME/CFS symptoms/mechanisms.
     
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  9. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I take grapefruit seed extract capsules from time to time when my gut is playing up, or diluted as a mouthwash or ear drops for other possible infections. It almost always settles my gut. I don't know how it does it, but it is reported to have a range of anti-pathogenic properties. Some sources make a big thing about contaminants, but as long as you use a reputable brand I don't think such problems are likely.

    I did a few searches just now to get some links to papers on GSE (NB this acronym is also sometimes used to mean grape seed extract).

    This abstract reports its activity in vitro against Borrelia.

    This paper reports its antibacterial and antifungal activity in vitro.

    This paper reports in vitro activity and says:

    Adverse interactions reported with warfarin appear to be due to the reported contaminants in some GSE products according to this paper that found 'GSE' products that contained no active GSE, only the contaminants.
     
  10. jstefl

    jstefl Senior Member

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    Gestalt:

    Thanks for the reply.

    I had not heard of the larch arabinogalactin before. I see that it comes in a powder form, and in capsules, usually 750 mg. I would assume that you buy the powder rather than taking 25 capsules at a time. I live in a country that thinks in pounds and ounces, so I am not accustomed to grams, but 20 grams seems like a lot.

    How do you take this? Do you mix it with food? Do you take this with the RS? How long before you noticed the effects?

    You don't mention the amount of pectin that you take, can you share that information also?

    I have always tried to limit the changes that I make to one at a time try to identify what has helped and what has not. I will order some of the arabinogalactin, but I want to see where the RS takes me first.

    John
     
  11. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    @adreno
    I have wondered about anti-microbials too, especially about curcumin, or should I say turmeric, since it seems to help us. Is it a threat to repopulating with good bacteria? I wonder. Please someone help.

    I mentioned the end of my husband's eczema. I have something positive to report too : from day to day I feel my gums getting tighter and my teeth getting smoother.
    !:thumbsup::balloons::thumbsup:[/quote]

    I do not believe curcumin & turmeric will adversely impact your commensal bacteria.

    I noticed how smooth my teeth felt when I was taking PS 3 x's a week. After having to cut this back to once a week secondary to the adverse effects it produced, I no longer notice this smoothness. In other ways there has been regression, I also have more inflammatory symptoms, just very achy.

    At the same time there are old symptoms that are resolving. For example, my Raynaud's symptoms have almost completely disappeared. My daughter has had similar improvement.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
    Asklipia likes this.
  12. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    It seems that in nature, substances that have antimicrobial activity always have strong anti-inflammatory properties. This would appear to be necessary because when the immune response is mobilized to defeat a pathogen this response is marked by the creation of oxidative stress. I think that traditionally, most of the effects of these plant compounds were studied for their abilities to influence the host metabolism. Something can suppress TNF-a or lower CRP, etc., but often the reasons for this are not explained or understood at the molecular level.

    I think you raise a fundamental point, and that is that many of these compounds are likely stimulating the growth of commensal organisms while simultaneously limiting pathogens. When I first accepted the fact that I had ME/CFS I spent a long time looking at studies that had shown to have efficacy in treating ME/CFS, and this list included a great number of plant compounds, which were both natural inhibitors of pathogens and have, in retrospect, been shown to bolster the population of commensals in other ways, including as prebiotics. I guess this idea about not concerning ourselves so much with our own biochemistry, but trying to influence our microbial metabolisms, is what this thread is all about.

    To answer your question, I think these compounds generally do not adversely effect commensal organisms, some quite clearly benefit these. Though, I haven't looked at this is a long time.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
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  13. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    " I guess this idea about not concerning ourselves so much with our own biochemistry, but trying to influence our microbial metabolisms, is what this thread is all about."

    Our microbial organisms are our factories, so we try to supply what they need. One methylation correction program that I looked at, mothers were giving 50-60 micronutrients to their kids in order to correct autism issues, and reporting that it wasn't doing what was expected.

    PS @ Gestalt, Sheesh that arabinogalactin is expensive!
     
  14. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Just a couple of random thoughts.

    I completely agree with your thoughts about trying to provide a more diverse array of prebiotics. An individual's GIT will obviously have different species and different concentrations of species that will be able to preferentially utilize different prebiotics. Quite honestly, we don't know which ones will provide benefits to a random individual, and to what degree these will be helpful. Even if we did know exactly what organisms that resided in ones' GIT, the complexity of the inter-relationships among commensal organisms makes it difficult to reach too many conclusions about what works best for any particular individual.

    Stimulating the growth of acetate and propionate synthesizing bacteria is likely beneficial, in fact the potato starch is clearly enhancing acetate synthesis/availability, but recall that these organisms have to be balanced out is such a way that the necessary synbiotic organisms are in place to maintain this environment. For example, propionate producing bacteria can require b12 to synthesize propionate via the succinate pathway. If this is not available, succinate accumulates. I point this out only because this suggests that propionate synthesizers probably have a synbiotic relationship with organisms that can produce B12. This also implies that there are other roles that this organism plays as mutualism typically involves more than a singular function. Accordingly, just providing b12 doesn't fix this problem, it is likely that the organism provides other benefits that supports the propionate synthesizer. This may, for example, explain why SBO's can be so advantageous to some, as some of these are able to synthesize B12, and hence likely fulfill other roles in this mutualistic relationship.

    What I think should be considered is that a response to a particular prebiotic will be dependent upon those species that are available to access this particular substrate, so while someone may have a concentration of species that can readily access larch arabinogalactan they may not have any particular benefit from potato starch. Only some bifidobacterial species, as an example, can utilize arabinose in arabinogalactan, but most (perhaps alll) can utilize galactose. (The galactose will have a considerable effect in enhancing acetate) Some of those species present in infants had more diverse substrate accessibility; therefore, I figured they may be good choices, but this is a complex problem and it will likely require individual solutions. This includes both the probiotic and the prebiotic.

    So, yes I agree, don't put the eggs all in one basket, but do this systematically and remember that results may imply that you are lacking a particular organisms that can use that prebiotic efficiently.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
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  15. Aileen

    Aileen Senior Member

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    I don't know how others are feeling, but I am getting confused and overwhelmed. We have histamine producers/ reducers, refrigerated/non refrigerated probiotics, various prebiotics produce different substances and act on different gut bugs. :bang-head:

    It would be helpful for me if someone could make a chart (or perhaps several) so we can have something we can more easily refer to -- in a new thread please!!!

    For example, prebiotics:
    Column 1: name of prebiotic
    Column 2: what it produces (eg. butyrate)
    Column 3: which probiotics it feeds
    Column 4: what it gets rid of (eg. ammonia)
    etc ...

    Something along those lines would be most helpful for me. Also a similar type one for probiotics. Perhaps also a chart listing different brands of pre- and probiotics. Which work best, is ice required for shipping, general available (or not) in pharmacies or health food stores etc.

    And please put each chart in a separate thread. I realize this is a lot of work but perhaps we can work on this as a group.
     
    mabelark likes this.
  16. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Aileen, I vote for you to make the chart:)
     
  17. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Identifying that relationship can be maddening. It took me a very long time to gain even a fair understanding of what I "think" is happening, and that was even after the couple of years it took to figure out that my symptoms were borne from the microbes in my gut. There is a cause and effect, it's just that the effects usher in the way for more bacterial displacement, which seems to negate many of the symptomatic improvements. Your immune system will try to finish the job, but with ongoing intestinal permeability, that seems to cancel out many of the would-be energy gains. One does have to take stock in the fact that there are some beneficial changes that underlie those symptoms that may be exacerbated, but I understand that just knowing that changes are happening, is little consolation.

    I'm not convinced it has to be this way, but I haven't yet figured out satisfactory ways of smoothing out the ride. I do think Gestalt's suggestion to trial new prebiotics has merit because the microbiomic dynamic is so complicated. In this regard, some may also benefit from organisms that they don't presently have in abundance, either through chronic inflammation, lack of acquisition at birth, antibiotic-usage, co-factor scarcity, etc.

    When we look at these bacterial SCFA synthesizing pathways we see that Butyrate has a bifidobacteral and clostridial underpinning, whereas propionate synthesis (as I recall) is largely carried out by bacteroides species, which are not available for supplement, but clearly require the support of other commensal organisms. What organisms participate in this mutualism with bacteroides, well, I'm not exactly sure. Given the importance of bacteroides in protein digestion, I suspect the organisms involved in nitrogen fixation are likely counterparts to bacteroides. This is somewhat interesting when we hear about the gains of those low-carbers in taking SBO's, who probably already have high concentrations of bacteroides and may be lacking in commensal supporting organisms. This also fits in with what I see about part of the propionate synthesizer using one pathway that required B12, and hence these organisms may be interdependent. In this regard, perhaps you would benefit from some of the SBO products, and consider trying a commensal clostridium product along with the corresponding prebiotics.

    Aside from this, more strategies to focus on healing the intestinal permeability may be appropriate.
     
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  18. AbbyDear

    AbbyDear

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    i wonder if some 'probiotic' strains can be "friendly" to most people, but not so friendly to others, in so much as the immune system is activated for some reason (we know some bacteria are bad for all).

    i also wonder about the diversity and if the symbiotic population can somehow mutate or result in new or different species/strains from others...

    i also wondered today, how is it that these organisms digest dead 'food', but know not to digest, or are unable to digest the living tissue that lines the intestines/colon... ?
     
  19. jstefl

    jstefl Senior Member

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    Vegas:

    I had an experience a few years back that I found very interesting, but I wasn't able to connect all the dots. I had a PET scan that showed a bright red "hot spot". I went back for a colonoscopy to get it checked out. I was given some powdered prep that I was told to mix with a liquid. I was told that Gatorade would be a good liquid, as long as it wasn't red. I chose lemon flavor. What a mistake! It didn't take much to give me a very upset stomach. I kept drinking and suffering until it was gone, but that was really tough, as I had some major distress from all that acid.

    They found and removed a tubular adenoma, and I went home. A few days later, I noticed that I was feeling a little better. For about the next ten days, I was feeling better every day. Then I woke up one day, and the improvements were gone. I went back to, my doctor and asked him about this, but he had no idea. He told me it was probably a placebo effect. I didn't expect to feel any better, so I don't think that was the case. I concluded that all the excess acid and the flushing action were the cause, but I didn't know where to go from there.

    That was a real lost opportunity.

    I have ordered some larch arabinogalactin, Can I just call it LA ?, and will start on that soon.

    I am still rotating between various probiotics.

    I understand that if my gut were restored to perfect heath today, it would take my body some time to readjust to the new conditions, so I am willing to be patient. Progress does come with some costs too. I went twenty years without a cold, until I began focusing on supplements that are supposed to shift the immune system back toward TH1 mode. I have had six colds in the last year and a half, the latest lasting five weeks, so I guess that is progress.

    It would be really wonderful to be able to get some testing to keep track of the changes, and ensure that I am going in the right direction. Unfortunately, I haven't found a doctor to work with me on that.

    I have noticed some beneficial changes. In two weeks I am getting a blood test that will possibly show some progress. I am taking a statin and Warfarin to keep me going, and I am curious to see if the RS will affect the results.

    I am also getting much more into the PHD diet as of late.

    It will be interesting to see where all this goes.

    John
     
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  20. jstefl

    jstefl Senior Member

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    Violeta:

    I found some Swanson Arabinogalactin for $ $11.99 for a 250 Gram bottle. If you take 20 Grams at a time like Gestalt, that works out to about $ .95 per dose, so it does add up. Shipping makes it even more.

    John
     

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