1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
Can You Come for a Visit? My ME/CFS Says No
My daughter and son-in-law just had a baby last week. We are thrilled. But we won't be able to see the baby or hold her any time soon. We won't be able to take over little gifts or help out with housework or babysitting.
Discuss the article on the Forums.

The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

    Messages:
    597
    Likes:
    454
    Good luck Vegas, there is a way out of this and I send you blessings for you and your family.
    After years of trying for a cure, the best has been to improve every single thing that can be improved.
    Then somehow we found ourselves on another level.
    I just realized that what I thought was a supplementation in minerals - we swim in a thermal lake every couple of days or so - could very well be a supplementation in bacteria!!!!
    That lake is not that "clean". Lots of fishes and algae in there! People don't like to swim there for that reason, but some old fashioned doctors recommend it and even go themselves. It is supposed to be blessed.
    Maybe it is full or Plantarum?

    Also I had a thought today.
    Maybe the saints who stop eating have just found a way to use the energy of some bacteria that would feed on light?
    Maybe this is the secret of the breatharians?

    The mind boggles.
    Be well!
    :hug:
  2. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,572
    Likes:
    4,194
    Cornwall, UK
    I hope you are right, as I have had a few of those in the past few months or so, but didn't know they were called that. I just did an internet search and the photos look like what I had been calling mouth sores and thought might be herpes-related.
  3. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    6,915
    Likes:
    5,772
    Albuquerque
    Interesting. I used to get these all the time, but they have gone away completely with GcMAF and Nexavir--not sure which or both had this effect. Though GcMAF helps the immune system, Nexavir also works as an antiviral. So RS perhaps "bringing them out" is interesting. Now let's see if they go away.

    Sushi
    MeSci likes this.
  4. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    536
    Likes:
    196
    It's day 6 of sore throat and cold, maybe allegies. Sometimes it seems to improve but then everything gets worse again. This morning I woke up with what seems like pink eye. The entire inside of my mouth feels like it's on fire, and actually the skin on my face feels like it's burnt, too. The side of my face hurts, too.

    I've had swollen but not painful glands under my jaw for at least 10 years, but today the area around them is painful. I'm going to take this as a good sign.

    Another symptom that I'm having is the extreme fatigue in the legs that makes the muscles hurt from climbing just one flight of stairs, probably one of the first symptoms that I had with my chronic fatigue.

    @Vegas, it's interesting to see you mention B3 helping; I'm having the opposite which I just realized yesterday. I cut it out and am going to just take B2 since my lips hurt and some spots feel swollen. There are no blisters, though, so I don't know if that takes it out of the category of B2 deficiency. I also started taking some Vit A, which did help my eye a little bit.

    Excuse me all while I get back to my pity party.:aghhh:
  5. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

    Messages:
    779
    Likes:
    151
    Are there some strains of Bifido that are desired and some that are not?

    My fecal test showed that I have an overgrowth of Bifido at 34% when they say the norm is 5-10%

    I wonder if this is why RS made me feel worse
  6. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

    Messages:
    498
    Likes:
    509
    Virginia
    Yes, B3 is not for everyone. I strictly avoided this for the entire course of my moderate to severe period. You generally don't want to be inhibiting NADH unless you have some resources to spare. It competes with NAD for binding sites on the protein that activates Dihydrolipoyl Dehydrogenase. This enzymatic reaction has a FAD prosthetic group. In case you didn't know, FAD is derived from B2.
    Violeta likes this.
  7. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

    Messages:
    388
    Likes:
    455
    @Vegas, I know you already get enough questions here (and I appreciate that), but I was wondering if you have ever looked into the "persorption" issue that anti-RS'ers refer to. It's been well known for years that any starch granule (among other things) that is eaten has the potential to be absorbed into the bloodstream. Nobody knows if this is a good thing or a bad thing.

    Some scientists say these particles get degraded by enzymes (although, I don't think RS would be degraded by enzymes). Others point out that they can be excreted through other mechanisms (passage into urine, bile, cerebrospinal fluid, the alveolar lumen, the peritoneal cavity, breast milk, and transplacentally into the fetal blood-stream). But, some suggest that these particles end up plugging up ("embolizing") small blood vessels over the long term. Their arguments are summarized here:

    http://sanscarbs.wordpress.com/2014/02/19/resistant-starch-follow-up-and-discussion/

    Tim Steele has responded by saying:

    I mean, I think he has a point. Should we really believe that eating a raw starchy tuber or green plantain each day really cause persorption problems?

    And then there are the countless cultures that have eaten raw tubers for eons. The Spanish have been drinking Horchata de Chufa forever — which is a raw starch beverage that might as well be PS in water. Nutcrackerman supposedly ate a diet that is believed to have been 80% raw tiger nuts (a very starchy raw tuber).

    From what I can tell, the known persorption issues seem to be from man-made particles (like metals, such as iron). Raw starches entering the bloodstream would seem to have been happening since hominids have been walking.

    And then there's this:

    And that study was the first to use electron microscopy, but never found the ultra-small particles that other studies suggested were there. When using electron microscopy, most of the detected persorbed starch granules were 5-30µm. PS tends to be large and ranges from 5-100µm.

    The whole thing is so poorly understood, but I can't help but wonder if some people with bad guts are getting extra RS granules in their bloodstream. Do you think RS in the blood is a natural phenomenon? (It seems like it is). Even the Hadza eat a lot of raw/undercooked tubers year round. But, I can't help but wonder if "persorbtion" could be the cause of some pain and kidney issues in those with much leakier guts.
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2014
    Asklipia likes this.
  8. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

    Messages:
    498
    Likes:
    509
    Virginia
    I'm not convinced that there are ones you don't want, but suspect that there may be some that are essential. I've focused mostly on B. bifidum, B. Adolescentis, and B. Infantis, based in large part on the sensitivity of these organisms to oxidative stress, their frequency in the infant microbiome, and the patterns I found that demonstrated that these organisms were often lacking or completely absent in some disease states. Personal experience would later establish, at least to me, that B. bifidum was the most effective at displacing pathogens; therefore, it was also the hardest to tolerate.

    I found the recent microbiomic study on Crohn's was interesting insofar as numbers of Bifidobacterial organisms were lower than in any other genera of bacteria, though I consider the deficient species to be potentially more important. These included b. longum, dentium, adolescentis, and bifidus. While I cannot say how much, if any applicability this has to ME/CFS, the trends across multiple lines of inflammatory disease processes are hard for me to ignore.

    I would be somewhat skeptical of the report that you have an "overgrowth," especially since most of these tests are marked by flawed methodologies, including the norms which have been established with under-reporting of those species most sensitive to oxygen and general belief that these species were more numerous than previously believed, the site sampled, and the need to correlate pcr to culture methods, among other reasons.

    Despite this, I think it is also plausible that organisms with similar properties (other Bifidus species) are sometimes found in greater numbers and this may be mitigating damages. I honestly can only speculate about what is happening and what is needed, but I certainly don't believe the testing is likely to be reliable after having read some enough about the methods that have principally been used in the past.

    I found that Natren's B. Bifidum strain, which was one of the first harvested from a human, in the 50's I think, proved to be very "potent" in just about everyone who tried it. These days I'm not using a Bifidus species because their use intensifies the immune response, which I no longer need. It seems the "seed" was planted, and the resistant starch is sustaining and expanding these populations without any apparent benefit from more organisms. I do use other fermented foods, but these LAB don't act on the lower GIT to nearly the same degree.

    These organisms may be less consequential than I believe, but it would seem to contradict what I have read and experienced. I'm anxious to see a detailed Microbiome Study in ME/CFS. Maybe then, we will have more guidance.
    Gestalt and Sidereal like this.
  9. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

    Messages:
    498
    Likes:
    509
    Virginia
    Potato starch is certainly degraded by enzymes. I do not think it accounts, in any way, for the kidney and other pain by way of the proposed mechanism you cite; if only based on my multiple year history of eliciting these symptoms, with stuff other than RS. I am highly skeptical about this contributing to the "embolization" of vessels. Honestly, I'm not familiar with this concept, but I am not impressed on theoretical grounds that this represents a viable concern. Though, I will say after having been as sick as I was, I don't worry too much about anything anymore, I should think more about these ideas. Are you concerned about this?
    Gestalt likes this.
  10. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,335
    Likes:
    1,482
    Tundras of Europa
    I think anti-RS'ers will try any weird argument to hang on to their paradigm.
  11. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,181
    Likes:
    519
    Seattle
    I really appreciate all the amazing input and discussion -- thanks everyone for this fascinating thread. However, there seems to be some conflicting info regarding whether or not the potato starch is nightshade (or solanine) - free.

    "Bob's Red Mill Potato Starch does not contain Solanine. It has been specially processed with cold water to remove it." And Ripley said in another thread: "And even potato starch is usually very tolerable since the nightshade compounds have all been peeled and washed away during the starch making process — it is a very pure source of resistant starch."

    Yet elsewhere there are warnings about the nightshade content.

    Can someone please clarify this issue for those of us who are about to dive in? Thanks so much.
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2014
  12. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

    Messages:
    388
    Likes:
    455
    No, I'm not concerned by it. People have been eating raw starch forever. I just wanted to make sure you weren't concerned by it either :)

    Thanks for your opinion. I appreciate it.
  13. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

    Messages:
    388
    Likes:
    455
    The truth is that you can make pure potato starch from the worst and most decayed solanine-ridden potatoes. The starch-making process removes solanine since solanine is water soluble and there is a LOT of water in the starch-making process.

    However, there are people who swear that they have gotten "nightshade" reactions from potato starch. I believe them, and I think that's entirely possible. But the reactions don't appear to be related to solanine as far as I can tell. Nightshade reactions can be from things like Calcitriol, which can cause stiffness in joints. Solanine gives a very different reaction.

    First off, solanine can be detected by a burning sensation in the back of the throat. To my knowledge, nobody has every experienced any burning in their throat when taking PS. Secondly, solanine poisoning is marked by "nausea, diarrhea, vomiting, stomach cramps, burning of the throat, cardiac dysrhythmia, nightmare, headache and dizziness" and many of these symptoms tend to get delayed for about 6 to 10 hours after ingestion of solanine. But, the few reported "reactions" to PS tend to be just rashes and joint stiffness — which implies other trace impurities that are well tolerated by those who don't have nightshade intolerance. Those who get stomach cramps tend to have extremely bad flora and those symptoms happen immediately (which again, is not indicative of the typical 6-10 hour delayed reaction to solanine poisoning).
    AbbyDear, Gestalt and dannybex like this.
  14. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,572
    Likes:
    4,194
    Cornwall, UK
    Yes, I wonder whether fixing the gut wall and the bacterial imbalance somehow unmasks pathogens that were causally involved further back along the chain. I'm also hoping that the feeling of reduced energy that I think I have is the sign that I/we should have heeded in the early stages, telling us to REST so that our immune systems could deal with the early pathogens. I know that many people report hypersomnia in the early stages (I had this at one point but not right at the start), but were unwisely encouraged/motivated to fight it.
    anne_likes_red likes this.
  15. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

    Messages:
    498
    Likes:
    509
    Virginia
    One of the consequences of the enrichment of the microbiome should result in a bacterial enzymatic enhancement that will allow for degradation of biofilms, so in one regard there will be "access" to organisms that were not previously accessible. Biofilms are largely comprised of carbohydrates, but these are long chain-polysaccharides that need to be degraded with hydrolase enzymes. Resistant starch is one of those long-chain polysaccharides. I was intrigued by the ability of Bifidobacteria to do this. These enzymes are glycoside hydrolase enzymes, which is also true of Alpha-N-acetylgalactosaminidase, also known as Nagalase.

    there is another thing that will happen in your healing, and I think and this goes back to the findings involving elevated Nagalase in ME/CFS, autism, cancer, etc. Nagalase results in deglycosylation of VDR, in such a way that one of our primary defenses against bacterial endotoxins is rendered largely ineffective. In my view this is a protective measure to inhibit the liberation of bacterial endotoxins.

    As I have stated many times before, the toxicity of lipopolysaccharide outside the GIT is considerable and life-threatening and there have to be multiple and redundant measures to inhibits its effects and/or reduce its quantity by inhibiting gram-negative cell lysis. This is where something like the Nagalase inhibition of VDR can provide benefits because it limits the ability of the immune system to participate in the destruction of those cell walls. This is a process designed to be carried out by the bacterial populations in the gut. An immune challenge to the peripheral tissues, liver, lymph, etc. is enormously taxing, and suppressing macrophage activity would seem to be the most effective way to limit the process of lysing the cell walls that could then initiate an immune response.

    What I believe Nagalase also does is limit the availability of glycosphingolipids for incorporation into the cells. This would effect sphingomyelin, which is largely what comprises the cell membranes and the myelin. This has countless implications, and the Nagalase accumulation would seem to limit the pathogenicity of LPS in other ways.

    As Nagalase is lowered, I expect better cell function and a more robust immune response is correspondingly supported. Well you are getting the condensed version, I hope this makes sense, and is accurate, I'm not well versed in Nagalase, GcMAF, etc.
    AbbyDear, Sidereal, Gestalt and 2 others like this.
  16. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

    Messages:
    6,915
    Likes:
    5,772
    Albuquerque
    @Vegas

    Thanks for the above post. Without a science background I can't fully understand it, but would this experience make sense according to your understanding? Before GcMAF I had high nagalase--it slowly came down over the months as I injected GcMAF. It is normal now.

    I am one of the ones who has had "an easier ride" with RS--about 3 weeks in a period of about 10 days where I felt pretty bad, then a noticeable reduction in PEM and OI.

    Do you think that this could be related to having already lowered my nagalase and increased macrophage activity?

    Sushi
    anne_likes_red likes this.
  17. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    536
    Likes:
    196
    I am thinking taking RS might bring on heavy metal symptoms by causing a setting free of heavy metals from the cell walls of the bacteria being broken.

    I was looking up symptoms caused by copper toxicity in a homeopathic material medica and was somehow lead to mercury. Since I had so many amalgam filings for so long, and since a lot of my symptoms did match mercury symptoms, I took a couple of doses of mercury and it's amazing how much it is helping.
  18. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,181
    Likes:
    519
    Seattle
    Thanks RIpley for your reply. I always thought that solanine was the offending chemical in the nightshade plants. I was aware of the whole calcitrol thing, but again, thought that was due to solanine. I'll monitor my reaction and make adjustments accordingly, since there are other forms of RS to choose from. p.s. I would think joint stiffness would be due to the nightshade component…?
  19. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    536
    Likes:
    196
    It looks as though one might be able to attenuate liver pain from the LPS released after taking RS by simply taking a calcium channel blocker such as quercitin, luteolin, or Vitamin K2.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10444449
  20. jstefl

    jstefl Senior Member

    Messages:
    167
    Likes:
    75
    Brookfield, Wisconsin
    Has anybody had really good results with RS?

    It has been nearly four months for me, and the results have been mixed so far. I am sleeping somewhat better, I still get some gas, but the terrible smell is mostly gone, and my brain is definitely less fogged. Most of the improvement came early on, and things seem to have plateaued for me lately.

    I have been working on improving my diet by trying to stick to the Perfect Health Diet whenever possible.

    I am having blood testing done in two weeks, so we will see if there are any changes there.

    So far, my energy level has remained the same. I was hoping that would be an area where I improved.

    I would love to hear some stories from those that are feeling better from the RS.

    John

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page