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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. thomas_3000

    thomas_3000

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    What, however, is infinitely more interesting is this podcast with the founder of a new FMT clinic: http://chriskresser.com/all-about-fecal-microbiota-transplants

    tl;dl : There's a new clinic near London, UK, that scientifically performs FMT with a new procedure to ensure the survival of all gut bacteria (including the anaerobic, of which almost all die during DIY FMT). It extensively screens the donors and has them adhere to a strict diet. It is reporting, I believe, 100% remission rate up until now.

    This is the clinic: http://taymount.com/
    Here is a more detailed brochure: http://taymount.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/BacteriotherapyBrochure.pdf

    As soon as I have the money I'm going to do it (will take me about a year I reckon).
     
  2. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    More energy implies that there is enhanced methylation and acetylation, This is why the B vitamin thing is going to get tricky. We are programmed to shut down these reactions under high oxidative stress conditions. As you turn them back on by correcting the root conditions that perpetuate the downregulation of these reactions, you will need to make adjustments. Co-factors may be scarce in some instances, some here have over-driven other reactions causing problem. Regardless of the reasons, I think conservatism of supplementing some of these co-factors, and in some instances, providing less reduced forms of micronutrients may be advisable. Although, more of a few b vitamins may be necessary to help guide the process.

    In this regard, I could see a need for increased B12, but I wonder if some will benefit from unmethylated cobalamin, letting their cells convert this as necessary. Hence the reason I said hydroxocobalamin may be useful. Unfortunately there are too many variables to make any reasonable conclusions about which form of B12 may be more useful. I'm thinking about providing B12 to metabolize MMA without artificially stimulating Methionine Synthase.

    If I were some sort of diagnostician, I would say you have developed some signs of choline deficiency. Liver pain and muscle cramps stand out to me as a feature of acetylcholine/choline deficiency. Choline is metabolized from Betaine. As you may know, BHMT, betaine-homoscysteine s-methyltransferase remethylates homocysteine in the liver, and it requires a zinc cofactor (with a little help from a thiol friend). So the methyl group from Betaine + Homocysteine + Zinc equals (IIRC) nearly half of the methionine regenerated in the liver. I'm wondering if via enhanced acetylation via the PDC you haven't adversely impacted choline biosynthesis.

    Questions: Have you had MMA or Homocysteine tested recently? Are you taking any phospholipids or precursors, TMG, DMG, lecithin, etc.? Are you taking MTHF to participate in the synthesis of glycine? Any particular reaction to TMG/DMG or lecithin in the past? Any food sensitivities to grapes or strawberries, in the past?

    Once you start the process of displacing organisms, phospholipid supplementation is critically important, and once you start the process of restoring your metabolism, phospholipids may become scarce depending upon individual factors. This is not a good combination.
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2014
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  3. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Yes, your reaction is certainly more along the lines of what I was talking about than Adreno's. Sounds like you have a more proximal GIT infection. Modification of the upper GIT, well the stomach, can cause lots of nausea, and the order of modification can be from proximal to distal. Over time I learned that when my GIT felt a bit unsettled, the last thing I would want to take is zinc. So don't take the zinc when your GIT feels funny. Zinc plus something that has antimicrobial properties (like Artemisinin) can precipitate quite a reaction in someone with an infection and zinc deficiency.
     
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  4. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    No, oral sodium bicarb is not a good idea.
     
  5. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I've been taking it for about 18 months as part of my leaky-gut regime. As my profile shows, I have improved a lot since starting the regime.

    But it may be that people consuming a lot of protein and meat would not benefit from it, as they probably need more stomach acid to break these down.
     
  6. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Thanks, but I made a point of avoiding supplements (apart from multivits) with B6 as I developed a lot of numbness when taking a supplement containing it a few years ago. Numbness is something that can be caused by excess B6, and I have a problem with numb fingers at the moment.
     
  7. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    No - do you have a link for this?
     
  8. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I've been thinking about choline, and have been supplementing up to 2400mg PC in the last few weeks. It definitely helps with the liver pain. Unfortunately, all the choline also seems to make me wired and depressed, plus giving me headache. So today I took just 400mg, probably not enough. Any idea of a ballpark figure? I also take CDP-choline which I like. In the past I have usually reacted badly to ALCAR, Alpha-GPC and such, which usually causes headache, muscle tension and depression.

    In the past (before RS) TMG usually feels great for a time, then I start becoming overstimulated and low on potassium, getting tachycardia. It was the first supplement that truly helped when I first got ill. Are you saying that high levels of zinc depletes choline and betaine? My homocysteine was measured recently to 7, this is a little higher than before, though nothing alarming. I would like it a bit lower. I eat beets daily, now. I am a little worried about taking TMG now as it's so stimulating.

    I do take 5-MTHF, usually 800-2400mcg depending on how I feel. Lately though, highish doses of it seems to make me worse and cause and increased demand for B12. Just this afternoon I was feeling off and tried 800mcg MTHF which immediately made me worse. 5mg mB12 seems to have gotten me back on track. I seem to go from one extreme to another and can never seem to get things stable. I might feel good for half a day or a few days, then suddenly crash again as something builds up and/or is depleted.
     
  9. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Yes, potentially a big problem to combine with a high protein load. I will have to look at your regimen.
     
  10. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Sounds like you need your own personal biochemist. I have generally avoided the problems of temporarily relieving one problem and creating another by avoiding all high-dose supplementation and generally limiting micronutrients not found in nature. I do take 200 mg of MTHF about four times a week, lots of riboflavin, and just recently started taking a little MB12, but I think hydroxocoabalamin may be less likely to cause adverse effects.

    Well clearly you cannot tolerate any more TMG, although I would wonder how you would do with DMG, which as you may know, exerts product inhibition on BHMT. If this is causing depression, then this may imply that this is effecting MS via homocysteine utilization, which unlike BHMT has tissue expression in the brain. (Sorry, I'm a bit rusty on this methylation stuff)

    I can't imagine the effects of zinc in stimulating BHMT would have a such a significant effect unless there were other problems with acetylcholine synthesis. Here is where changes in lactate and pyruvate are going to exert their effects. I will need to think about your situation further.

    come to think of it though, some of the decarboxylation reactions are driven by a copper co-factor.
     
  11. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    EDIT:

    Whoops - I of course meant that I am going to take 100mg a day, not 100g!
     
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  12. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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  13. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I've been thinking about this, why someone wouldn't react to RS.

    The first possibility is that RS cannot produce the effects that have been ascribed to it. I have over the years learned to become wary of such things, because failures have been numerous and false hopes plentiful. My wife sceptically refers to these interventions as "the next great thing that is going to bring about my recovery."

    I'm not going to go into great detail about the legitimacy of RS, but there are some things that I have witnessed that defy any other obvious explanation. Little things, like seeing my wife exhausted by the end of the day and going to bed an hour and half earlier every time she takes 1 tsp of RS in the morning. I find that three of my children have lymphatic pain in some of the areas that have long been known to me, beginning several days after the RS. I see the changes in mood, changes in bowel habits, and some slow and nonlinear improvement in some things that are more subjective, like sleep and anxiety, which is trending in the right direction.

    The bottom line is that these are inflammatory features, they are quite clearly features of endotoxins: Fatigue, lymph soreness/pain, mood disturbance. I have reviewed the studies describing LPS effects on humans, the research regarding endotoxins effects, how these molecules are neutralized, how they travel the body, what parts of the immune system they impact, etc. If we had lab studies, they would, in all likelihood demonstrate changes in IL6, IFN-gamma, TNF-alpha, etc. depending upon the concentration in the peripheral tissues. If you don't have the characteristic symptoms of endotoxin exposure though, these measures will not change.

    The second obvious explanation is that you have a viable and even an optimal concentration of the organisms that can utilize this substrate and/or no pathogenic organisms that would be effected by a significant increase in these commensals. I'm skeptical about this explanation given your report of significant GIT dysfunction, which includes the need to use yucca schidigera, which inhibits bacterial urease (enzyme) and thus inhibits the conversion of urea (via hydrolysis) and lessens the concentration of gaseous ammonia. The organisms that I know that are really good at turning urea into ammonia are gram-negative pathogens.

    (As a quick aside, this is where I think ME/CFS physicians need to understand this dynamic a bit better. The Gram-negative pathogens are there for a reason, and that is because the environment is hospitable for them. This is due to many factors, including a lack of commensals, pH, they have access to a substrate, there is a particular concentration of SCFA, there is a scarcity or abundance of particular nutrients, etc. They are also executing roles that benefit the host, so indiscriminate modification of the GIT is not advisable. Some of the gram-negative urea-splitting bacteria are not just great at turning urea into ammonia, they also produce hydrogen sulfide. The hydrogen sulfide dampens the immune response caused by LPS and the ammonia serves the purpose of alkalizing the environment. Often, I see physicians blindly use antibiotics thinking they are going to shift the underlying microbiota toward more favorable conditions. Many of these antibiotics have no activity against many of these gram-negative pathogens yet they have very pronounced effects on these commensals. The best I can determine is that the antibiotics that have may have a role only do so because they can neutralize the toxicity of the endotoxins either via improving intestinal epithelial integrity--rifaximin--or diminishing the immune response induced by LPS--tetracyclines.)

    I agree with you that, in all likelihood, you don't have any or sufficient numbers of the specific organisms that can access this substrate, I would have expected a response before now based upon how much and how long you have used the potato starch. Changes in the GIT should be obvious, I think. Did you ever try any of the yogurt that I recommended? That might be something to consider. I think you need species that can utilize amylopectin. I think this starch has some very special properties, which match it perfectly with certain Bifidobacterial organisms. I certainly can't discount the need for commensal clostridial species, though from a chemical and molecular perspective, PS has some very special qualities that would effect the survivability of Bifidobacterial strains. Without the bacteria able to utilize this, amylopectin is of no particular value to you.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2014
  14. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    So, the other question is, why would someone who has had minimal or no apparent GIT problems even consider RS.

    Having had IBS nearly two decades ago, I now understand that there were shifts that took place over time, a re-balancing of sorts. I can actually recall a period where the small intestinal symptoms became less prominent and the lower GIT symptoms more pronounced, eventually the symptoms resolved altogether as a new homestasis was reached. Yes, this is highly speculative, but to think that the intestinal microbiome doesn't have to respond to antibiotic use, diet, nutrient deficiencies, etc, would be irrational. These things will dramatically shift the balance and only when the fundamental changes take place, will a more hospitable microbiome emerge.

    I did not have any significant GIT symptoms for many years, but that certainly does not translate to an optimal microbiome. In fact, like others, I wouldn't have considered the GIT dysfunction to have played a significant role in perpetuating ME/CFS because I had no significant GIT symptoms when I had severe ME/CFS, I also had an immune response that had been, in retrospect, deliberately suppressed to control the damage. I think there have been evolutionary adaptations to the oldest living organisms on the planet that protects humans from perhaps the most toxic compounds to humans: LPS. In fact, this intricate balance had to be achieved because all humans were regularly exposed to gram negative pathogens in the GIT. They live in our gut, and our diets and commensal bacterial organisms represented the primary means by which we kept them there.

    It was not until I had an immune response competent enough to precipitate the displacement of organisms that I developed these inflammatory symptoms. Restoration of immune competency can require numerous things to take place. Energy, cofactors, diet, commensal organisms, they go hand in had.

    One of the most notable things for me was methyltetrahydrofolate, its biosynthesis gets downregulated under chronic oxidative stress. Energy synthesis from glucose creates this cofactor needed to handle this conversion. MTHF biosynthesis is deliberately inhibited by our own metabolic checks and balances. You take this, it drives a big part of amino acid metabolism, it participates in DNA synthesis, it is critical in both humoral and adaptive immunity. You might, unfortunately, get a big dose of histamine from this, because this helps mitigate the effects of LPS. These endogenously created chemicals always have beneficial purposes.
     
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  15. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    I don't believe this. It certainly isn't inert, as my son and wife both reacted negatively to a small amount of potato starch.

    I've not had my stool analyzed, so I have no idea. Yucca helps me a great deal with my mental issues - OCD and anxiety - but it hasn't helped me physically at all, which is what I was hoping the RS would do. Bear in mind that my ammonia problem may be genetic in nature, rather than bacterial. Also, based on my hyper-sensitive reactions to things (GABA, excitotoxins) I don't believe my serum ammonia has to get very high for my brain to suffer its effect. My BBB doesn't seem to function very well.

    I have not introduced probiotics, yet. I do these things slowly - I don't like confounding variables. Now that I've trialed the arabinogalactan (zero reaction at 15g, big surprise) I will look to adding probiotics.
     
  16. jstefl

    jstefl Senior Member

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    I have been taking RS for over three months now, and recently had an interesting experience.

    Up until about two week's ago, I was having a moderately good response. It was getting easier to tolerate the RS, and the gas generated was reduced. At that time, I decided that I should stop taking the antibiotics I was taking. I was taking 20 mg of doxycycline twice a day, as prescribed by my dentist. I have been doing this for over 15 years, and it has helped with my periodontal issues. I have been concerned that long term use of an antibiotic would lead to resistant bacteria, so I decided that this would be a good time to stop taking the drug.

    It took a few days, but things took a turn for the worse. My stool became completely liquid, after having been almost solid, my headaches became much worse, and my energy level dropped.

    I restarted the drug two days ago, and things have greatly improved, much to my surprise. I had no idea that such a tiny dose of antibiotic would have such an effect. I was concerned that the antibiotic may be working to counteract the probiotics that I have been using, but the opposite seems to have occurred.

    This has me wondering if anyone else has had a similar experience?

    John
     
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  17. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    Well, I tried it to see if it would help with my sleep. I moved very quickly to 4T a day, and freetheanimal says it takes 3-4 weeks to notice "big changes." So I stuck it out for a month, and I did get copious amounts of gas and more frequent bowel movements.

    But I got a terrible cold on day 10, which went right into my sinuses and lungs. I haven't been sick in years, so this was a surprise. In a week it had morphed into a sinus infection, requiring antibiotics. I took probiotics and successfully warded off diarrhea. But now 5 days after finishing the abx I am slammed by a flu and I have thrush for the first time in my life.

    Also, my number of wakings increased from 3 to 5,

    There is no clear causal path here, but I haven't gotten any benefits from the RS except for whiter teeth and more frequent bms.
     
  18. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Read closely what I wrote about the tetracycline class of antibiotics, this includes Doxy. It has a similar molecular structure and would have the same effect. These form ligands with LPS and in doing so influence the inflammatory response, in a way that it moderates the symptoms you would have otherwise experienced without it. This is the same reason why tetracyclines have been shown to moderate depressive symptoms. You just conducted an experiment, which generally supports my hypothesis about gram negative pathogens and the effects of LPS. Twenty years of minimizing the effects of this endotoxin. Of course, a better strategy would be to fix the underlying problem, now we just need to find ways to do this at the least cost to the host.
     
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  19. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    You will not be the first or the last person to have regrets about trying to modify the gut and hence awaken the immune response. In moderate to severe ME/CFS, it gets worse before it gets better, but I think there are a number of things you can do to smooth out the ride. Advice on the paleo forums is largely inapplicable to your situation.
     
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  20. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Maybe your immune system is better? Not getting sick, while it seems a plus, :)usually means that our immune system isn't functioning well. :( A better gut should translate into a better immune system.

    Sushi
     

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