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9th Invest in ME International ME Conference, 2014 - Part 1: Autoimmunity and ME
Mark Berry begins a series of articles on the 9th Invest in ME International ME Conference in London, with a look at three presentations on autoimmunity
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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    If you have overt histamine-mediated symptoms, I think you will want to think twice about "weathering a storm." I don't think there are many people who want to weather a "cytokine storm," after all is said and done. I also don't believe there is any merit to the idea that you can push through this. It is somewhat counter-intuitive, as you need to understand that the immune stimulation does not stop when you discontinue the starch, it can build for some time.
    Asklipia and anne_likes_red like this.
  2. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    @Sasha, glad it's getting out there!

    As for PS, the reason why people tend to start with PS is because it is extremely cheap and easy. $3.99 can last people a month or more. So, the cost/benefit risk is extremely low for people to try it. Tim Steele investigated a lot of different prebiotics, including Larch, beta-glucan, before he started promoting PS, but he was particularly intrigued by how easy it was for people to obtain and use tablespoons of PS — most people already had it in their homes. And I think PS is a great way for people to see how powerful a raw prebiotic found in an every day food can be. I still can't get over the power of what a teaspoon of starch can do. Hard for someone to visualize it until they feel it for themselves. I think it rarely occurs to most people, even to scientists who research this stuff, to take spoonfuls of prebiotic supplements.

    So, PS is just about convenience and cost. And RS is where most butyrate seems to come from, so it's a great place for most people to start off. But once people see how their bodies react, they start to diversify their fibers and experiment appropriately.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
    anne_likes_red, maryb, Lou and 3 others like this.
  3. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I think there are going to be some real changes relating to B vitamin needs, particularly those most closely tied to energy metabolism: Niacin, thiamine, riboflavin. I'm not sure about Biotin. While there will eventually be less need for all of these, at first the ride may be somewhat smoother with more, or possibly less of some of these vitamins.
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2014
    froufox, Asklipia and anne_likes_red like this.
  4. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    [/quote]

    As for PS, the reason why people tend to start with PS is because it is extremely cheap and easy. $3.99 can last people a month or more. So, the cost/benefit risk is extremely low for people to try it. Tim Steele investigated a lot of different prebiotics, including Larch, beta-glucan, before he started promoting PS, but he was particularly intrigued by how easy it was for people to obtain and use tablespoons of PS — most people already had it in their homes. And I think PS is a great way for people to see how powerful a raw prebiotic found in an every day food can be. I still can't get over the power of what a teaspoon of starch can do. Hard for someone to visualize it until they feel it for themselves. I think it rarely occurs, even to scientists who research this stuff, to take spoonfuls of raw prebiotics.

    So, PS is just about convenience and cost. And RS is where most butyrate seems to come from, so it's a great place for most people to start off. But once people see how their bodies react, they start to diversify their fibers and experiment appropriately.[/quote]


    This is very interesting, and I think the effects are more diverse than simply acting as prebiotics. These compounds have other independent functions.
    maryb, Asklipia and Sasha like this.
  5. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I have much less muscle contractility as well, which I believe, clearly results from some improvement of the integrity of the intestinal lining. I say this, because I have had much of this for many, many years. In fact the tightness of the anteropelvic region, hips, iliopsoas, IT band, and lumbosacral spine are pretty common with inflammatory bowel diseases. Sacroiliac joint dysfunction is something like 6-10 x's more common in IBS, for example, than the general population.

    It started with the low back/sacral area, and it has moved outward from there. In other words, the most dramatic changes have taken place in the soft tissues that surround the lymphatic vessels of the lower intestinal tract, and those networks that extend from there to systemic circulation...basically from the sacroiliac spine to the thoracic spine.

    I actually did a month of osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) for this in December/January, which was very helpful, but I wasn't expecting to loosen up so much as I have in the last couple of months. OMT is a fantastic treatment, and may be helpful to some as they try RS, and some of the endotoxins have to make their way through the paraspinal lymphatics.

    I actually got a huge dose of brain fog and fatigue the day following the "adjustment," to my spine. My therapist acted like I was crazy when I explained that I felt he likely corrected some lymphatic bottleneck, because I had this heavy brain fog and fatigue for a day or so afterward. When he did this, however, my lower back almost immediately stopped contracting after having been in that state for years.
  6. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    @Vegas Thank you so much for taking the time to write those elaborate posts. I feel that understanding precisely what is happening is one way to clear all that fog, even physical fog. When I can concentrate and direct the light of the mind on something, I can feel it dissolving.
    There are many ways to attack this disease, and understanding it better is for me a very efficient way to help it disappear. You have done a lot to help. Thank you!! :):thumbsup::)

    And my thanks go too to @Ripley who has brought the subject. Giving hope, which is essential (don't forget the placebo effect!) and offering readymade information for a start for those who do not have the strength to search. Without you we would have come to this most probably much later. Saving us time, saving us life. My thoughts are blessing you. :thumbsup::balloons::thumbsup:

    And as many thanks and blessings to all of us who contribute to this thread, with their words and offering their experiences on their bodies. We are doing something important here. May all the sufferers be better soon!
    Lots of good wishes to all. :angel::thumbsup::angel:

    Another effect of PS : a tsunami of gratitude.
    I'll never look at psychiatric problems the same way from now on.
    All these poor people in the madhouses. For there is no other word for those hospitals. Let's hope that what we do here will seep into many other areas of medicine.

    Soon.

    Lots of good wishes to all,
    Asklipia
    I notice that this was my 500th post on PR. Thanks also to the moderators who are tirelessly proving a place for us to express ourselves. GREAT WORK!!!! May they be all cured soon!
  7. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    I read this somewhere before but now can't find it.

    Has anyone seen added benifit from adding psyllium husk to the starch?

    What is the ratio?

    Thanks
  8. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I'm thinking pantethine might be helpful for countering the negative effects of endotoxins, it seems it inhibits hypercoagulation and protects the BBB:

    Protection against cerebral malaria by the low-molecular-weight thiol pantethine
  9. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Spectacular post. :thumbsup: Some people find it easier to think in pictures. I found this nice diagram of tryptophan metabolism on one of @Radio 's threads.

    [​IMG]
    anne_likes_red and Asklipia like this.
  10. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I know what you mean about wanting to take massive doses, but Vegas is right about pushing through not really helping short term or in the long run.

    Here's a link to an article by a D.C. about the immune system.
    http://livingwellnessblog.wordpress.com/2012/10/12/am-i-th1-or-th2-or-th17/

    He explains the different branches, and then further down he explains that you actually want to quiet down your immune system, and after it's quiet, to keep it settled down.

    Of course we don't want to go into denial about pathogens, and I think the doctor in this video actually found a natural substance that covers all the bases.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=9QbZp3WcC1Q

    Don't be put off by the title, Autism Brain allergy, that's the context he's studying immune system reactions. The natural substance is named at the end, if you're like me and can't wait to get to the good part.
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
  11. froufox

    froufox Senior Member

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    Hi Violeta, yes definitely think that the balance between the 2 arms of the immune system had changed, as my body maybe started to go after the intracellular infections and also perhaps because the Tregs/TH17 that are involved regulating that balance is also dysfunctional that reaction gets out of control?? I must say that always find vitamin A eg (in cod liver oil) really helps to calm down that inflammation, and sometimes vit D (from sunlight) helps too.

    Influence of Dietary Components on Regulatory T Cells
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3276397/

    Also re what Vegas says re the kynurenine pathway...i think mine is definitely messed up as i always get really bad depression when i have die-off reactions, its really hard to cope with sometimes, argh! :bang-head: I think that IL-6 and TNF@ must be elevated too as that is linked to depression isnt it...my IL-6 was elevated just after I finished taking GcMAF (and that made me severely depressed).

    Yes presumably histamine and other inflammatory molecules are involved.

    I saw something on Ben Lynch's website about Methyfolate & B12 inducing Parkinson symptoms...

    http://mthfr.net/taking-folate-and-feeling-badly-methylation-requires-balance/2011/11/15/
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
  12. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    I take 2g of psyllium with 15-45g of potato starch (I take the large dose 2/week) with breakfast. It's not something I added for the purpose of augmenting the PS - I've been taking psyllium with every meal for years now.
  13. Radio

    Radio *****

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    Radio:

    Mitochondrial damage is a normal part of aging, but is accelerated in many metabolic disorders. Chronic deficiencies and gut imbalances can destroys the mitochondrial membranes and lead to the modern diseases we see today.

    Intestinal bacterial overgrowth (SIBO) can be the underlying cause for many of the symptoms associated with fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome.These bacteria can be aerobic as well as anaerobic. SIBO can lead to a overproduction and absorption of toxins such as D-lactic acide, Tyramine, Tartaric acid, Hydrogen sulfide as well as Endotoxins. This can impair the brain causing fatigue and many other nervous system mitochondrial dysfunctions. Bacterial cellular debris can stimulate the production of endogenous interleukin-1 and tumor necrosis factor. LPS can cause inflammation and mitochondrial impairment. Bacteria and yeast overgrowth can also produce hydrogen sulfide (H2S) that can bind to the mitochondrial enzyme cytochrome c oxidase, part of the electron transport chain. This can also impair oxidative phosphorylation and ATP production. Hydrogen sulfide is a neurotoxin and metabolic poison and can cause fatigue, muscle pain and dyscognition. These bacteria imbalances can produce tryptophanase which can digests tryptophan that is the main building block for serotonin and ultimately melatonin. Tryptophan depletion leads to melatonin deficiency which in turn leads to sleep disturbances, mitochondrial impairment and oxidative stress as well as muscle fatigue. Finally these bacterial overgrowths can also produces D-lactic acid which is a neurotoxin as well as a metabolic poison in abnormal amounts. The main focus is to prevent Apoptosis (cell death) and it's imperative that we start mitochondria supportive therapy and identify and treat gut imbalances as well as intracellular deficiencies.


    Tryptophan / NAD+ Deficiency
    Viruses, bacteria imbalances and mineral imbalances as well as HCL / Bile acids
    insufficiency can affect the NAD Synthesis. This is the reason why it's import to bypass the depleted NAD+ synthesis. Tryptophan, Nicotinamide, NAD, NADH, can all help as well as R- lipoic acid can also compensate by recycling NAD+.









    Radio:
    We have discovered that supplementing with HCL / Bile acids is a key factor in controlling dysbiosis. This concludes my broadcast for now. :balanced: Pay it forward and never give up!
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
    froufox likes this.
  14. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Good suggestion, but I will caution that Pantethine is readily incorporated to form Coenzyme A, which is going to effect some processes that can cause some people, a few problems. The positive contributions are many, especially as it relates to lipid and sterol synthesis.

    The tricky part is that Co-A has a sulfhydryl group and can affect some processes that can cause some unfavorable symptoms, in some. By taking Pantethine instead of B5, one would be circumventing a big part of the chemical process, which is rate-limiting for Co-A biosynthesis because one would be directly supplementing pantethine downstream from the rate-limiting phosphorylation reaction. Generally, this is not such a bad thing, because this pathway is very sensitive to lipid oxidation. By this, I mean that the flow will shift towards sterol and lipid synthesis, which should be beneficial. (As you know, Pantethine has also been shown to have fairly strong associations with improving lipid profiles.)

    The problem, which can arise is that this influences the cysteine pathways, which produce hydrogen sulfide. The provision of Co-A is thus spares cysteine, which will be available for synthesis of hydrogen sulfide. It seems to do so at a part of the metabolism that significantly influences H2S. H2S of course has a number of useful roles, but if concentrations in the blood rise too high, it produces adverse symptoms. I found that high doses of pantethine, NAC, or MB12 would all produce the exact same effect, terrible, almost debilitating headaches. Of course the commonality is that they raise circulating cysteine or direct more cysteine to H2S synthesis. This is not so much of a problem when cysteine metabolism is limited by other factors, including co-factor availability, cysteine oxidation from ROS/NOS, etc, but this is the reaction that changes over time, with improved redox status and micro-nutrient availability. This is just one of the things people need to look out for as their metabolism starts to become more normal. Symptoms are going to vary as well, since the capacity to produce H2S from cysteine will vary depending upon the tissues where this is synthesized. Of course research into H2S as biomolecule and blood gas messenger is pretty underdeveloped at this time, but it is also of note that high cysteine foods can directly stimulate the synthesis of hydrogen sulfide within the red blood cells. In this regard, high-thiol foods may suggest that there is high H2S bacterial load.

    H2S is a very interesting molecule in ME/CFS when we look at it's potential role in mitigating the effects of a bacterial infection. Bacterial H2S appears to have a role in down-regulating the inflammatory response created by exposure to endotoxins. This blood gas can suppress some pro-inflammatory cytokines, so actually having sulfide in the blood likely plays a major role in keeping us alive as it allows us to endure part of the inflammatory response created by the endotoxins. More H2S may translate to severe symptoms, but it also appears that it may be life-sustaining in so far as it suppresses the inflammatory response we otherwise would mount without the H2S. Perhaps, those of us who have high levels of SRB don't want to interfere too much in the cysteine metabolism, and simply work on reducing concentrations indirectly by nurturing our own commensal organisms.

    Of course too much H2S is not good, as is too little. I think back to the time that my glucose metabolism started to decline despite the fact that I had no evidence of metabolic disease, and, according to the endocrinologist, had a remarkable sensitivity to insulin. When I withdrew all those fermentable carbohydrates, my glucose metabolism or glycolysis utterly collapsed in a matter of weeks. In retrospect, what likely happened is that Bifidobacterial organisms and Clostridal species collapsed, but I also think about what organisms must have filled the void, and H2S-synthesizing organisms seem to be uniquely qualified to carry out this role.

    The preponderance of hydrogen sulfide producing bacteria would seem to be ideally suited to this new, hostile environment since they could passivate an inflammatory response attributable to the presence of gram-negative bacteria. This is of course assuming that other gram-negative organisms predominated in the new and more hostile community that no longer included the same commensal organisms that populated the colon. These H2S emitting organisms are also very efficient at reducing lactate, and I think elevated lactate would be one manifestation of the new, hostile microbiome. Also, H2S producing organisms may have also served to stabilize energy metabolism, or at least carbohydrate metabolism because hydrogen sulfide stimulates glucose transporter molecule (GLUT4). This is protein which transports glucose from the blood to the tissues, and is of considerable interest now in the study of metabolic disease.

    Pantethine is probably going to be o.k. for most. I used to love that stuff, it is Bifidogenic, it is useful in many ways. One of the really cool things it can do is boost CoQ-10 biosynthesis since it is used as a co-factor in the TCA at succinate, of course if you have high lactate/pyruvate, it serves as a cofactor here as well. I think it would be used more commonly for lipid lowering, had it been a substance that could be patented. There is just no economic incentive for the drug companies, and we know that medicine is dominated by script writing. It is sort of like the anti-statin in that it improves lipids and CoQ-10 simultaneously. I would take it again myself, if it didn't give me headaches.
    adreno likes this.
  15. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Quite a complicated picture, with a bit of a chess game being played by bacterial and host interactions. As a general rule, I wouldn't recommend supplementing quite so generically as above.
  16. thomas_3000

    thomas_3000

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    Violeta, xjhuez and Sasha like this.
  17. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Another purely anecdotal report: yesterday I thought I had gone over the edge with physical activity and that I had really let myself in for a big dose of PEM. I had done some computer work, gone to a meeting, then spent over an hour plant shopping at a big garden store.

    Well, I should have quit then, right? :cool:

    Well I didn't. I wanted to put those suckers in the ground so spent a couple of hours digging, dragging huge bags of mulch around, watering etc. I felt kinda bad after that but woke up today fine! :thumbsup:

    Sushi
    dannybex, Rrrr, SOC and 9 others like this.
  18. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I will have to read up on Th17 and also kynurenine pathway. I get bad depression when I don't feel good; I'll have to try to figure out if when that happens if it's die-off or not. I went for many years never having any ups. Depression can be worse than physical pain. Wow, so GcMAF elevated your IL-6, do you know why?

    I went to that link by Ben Lynch, it's from 2011! That's terrible that that information is a little blogpost from 2011 and no one ever made it well known that methylfolate and B12 induce Parkinson symptoms! I'm not satisfied with his response; it's too lame.

    Is there anything we can do that won't stir things up and make things worse?

    Have you listened to the videos about mast cell activation being related to chronic fatigue?
  19. Radio

    Radio *****

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    Radio:
    Many subgroups with chronic infection- including SIBO and H.pylori can have overactive TH2 cytokine response.





    H-pylori-Hypochlorhydria-Dysbiosis-Liver-CFS/ME-Connection

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...dria-dysbiosis-liver-cfs-me-connection.28937/

    Kynurenine Pathway Metabolites in Humans: Disease and Healthy States

    http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDgQFjAB&url=http://www.la-press.com/redirect_file.php?fileId=1868&filename=IJTR-2-Guillemin-et-al&fileType=pdf&ei=M3HLUtauJobfsASmpoLQDQ&usg=AFQjCNFEpPCWbRBqRfKZX3PYzI2IcmtFlg&sig2=BdUNdAknPb76k-zC9PLmzQ&bvm=bv.58187178,d.cWc
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
  20. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Thanks for the information, Radio.

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