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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. finalgates

    finalgates

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    thanks ripley.i want to get rid of candida.and i may have parasites too.i will add diamateous earth
  2. finalgates

    finalgates

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    i forgot to mention that i have severe bone pain in my elbow when i flex my arm.is it die off?i began 2 days ago the probiotics with RS
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2014
  3. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    No idea. If you are using potato starch, you may be having a nightshade reaction. In which case you'll want to switch to green banana flour or green plantain flour. You'll need to use your best judgement.

    Candida is tricky. @Gestalt has a good protocol you should consider following.
  4. finalgates

    finalgates

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  5. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    A friend of mine did some research into this and apparently from autopsy reports people who consumed diatomaceous earth were loaded with the stuff and it was all over embed in their intestine. I think it can cut up your villi and permanently embed itself in your sensitive GI tract. Personally i would stay away from it, it may be like consuming small metal knives, sure you may kill a few parasites but the collateral damage may be even far worse.

    If the stuff is dangerous to breath and can slice up the alveoli in your lungs I'm not sure why you would want to consume it.
    Asklipia, Ripley and Aileen like this.
  6. finalgates

    finalgates

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    thanks so maybe i dont try it.does resistant starch and sbo helps get rid of parasites?the danger of DE is crystalline silica?i am asking because i only want to use for only few weeks?so i will not accumulate crystallic silica
  7. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Just a small update on Resistant Starch :
    We still are at one teaspoon PS on Wednesdays and Sundays. No probiotics except for home made yogurt from raw ewe"s milk.
    Our appetite is much reduced.
    My husband had to buy a new belt, his waist is so much narrower.
    I feel a strange activity under the breast bone.
    Also for both of us, when we switch on the lights to make coffee in the morning, the eyes are not in the least bothered.
    This seems to me a very important step forward. Maybe neurological, maybe the eyes do no suffer so much pressure for lymph exiting there.
    Good luck to all!
    Asklipia :hug:
  8. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    I will second this. I do fine with potato starch and psyllium, but inulin causes me gut trauma. It took me some trial & error before I singled it out.

    I get the same unfortunate result from the "high ORAC green powders" suggested in this thread and elsewhere. Impossible to know what the culprit is due to them containing a laundry list of ingredients. For anyone with SIBO, or any type of gut issue/sensitivity, products with 20+ ingredients seem like a bad idea.
  9. finalgates

    finalgates

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    my pain completely went away.it was only for 1 day.i took serrapeptase and 2 teaspoons baking soda.dont know if they helped
  10. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Glad to hear about your improvements.

    I don't own a scale, but I can tell that I am somewhat leaner as well. This has tailed off recently, as my immune system has become more "aggressive," and I have been stubbornly reluctant to turn down the RS. I am willing to bet that many would actually experience some weight gain if they were to push the RS too fast, depending upon their status. If one supplemented with a large amount of probiotics and doubled-up on RS, for example, I think many would experience the same inflammatory and hormonal response that is generally described as "blood sugar" or "adrenal fatigue" symptoms; I think many of these symptoms are mediated by lipopolysaccharide. The inflammatory response, not the pathogen itself, is what kills, but it is also what preserves life. The fever and chills and diarrhea obviously has a purpose, as does the nausea, which is actually sometimes of the variety that one feels better with food. The urge to eat has a physiological role to supplement the energy metabolism, Our reward for fulfilling this caloric need is enhanced cortisol, glucagon, neurotransmitters (among other things) which counters the adrenergic response.

    As far as the fat loss is concerned, we know the endotoxins trigger a cascade of hormones and inflammatory chemicals that in contrast suppress hunger at very high concentrations, I think this probably accounts for some of the ME/CFS patients who have pancreatic insufficiency, impaired digestion, those that can't keep on weight, and I see this as a deliberate response to suppress amino acid catabolism.

    At lower levels, the endotoxins increase hunger and generally produce a sustained inflammatory response. This, is the more likely scenario that you have encountered. I would imagine that what you are likely seeing is a reduction of the inflammatory and hormonal response brought about by the improvement of intestinal permeability, which is clearly the most effective way of keeping the endotoxins out of the lymphatics, extracellular space, and general circulation. LPS in these tissues promotes an exponentially greater inflammatory response as compared to in the GIT where tolerance exists and the presence of symbiotic organisms serves to moderate the pathogenicity of the endotoxins. As ME/CFS severity increases, the immunocompetency, particularly innate immunity, of the patient generally declines and this has a protective effect of dampening the response against gram-negative pathogens. LPS has an LD-50 in humans in the single to ten microgram range. It's passivation is essential to preserving life.

    Of course there are lots of things that could be contributing directly or indirectly to weight loss. pH should be improving, leading to a host of favorable changes in the bowel and the body. Also, the enhanced bacterial SCFA synthesis is produced with no significant energy loss for you. That fuel for the colonocytes is readily available to maintain the intestinal lining, and you get the surplus.

    Regarding the eyes, I have always been able to rely upon sensitivity of retinal tissue (as well as the paresthesia in my hands) as indicators of oxidative stress. I think RVK was correct when he hypothesized that the cysteine metabolism and glutathione availablity and hence redox status largely determines symptom intensity and expression. The peripheral tissues (hands & feet) and the eyes are sort of like early warning signs when one pushes himself too hard. I am sure this is probably somewhat individual, but this has always stood out to me. Glutathione levels in the retina are very sensitive to redox status, and I think this accounts for some of the photosensitivity reported in ME/CFS, autism, and other related conditions, like Ehlers Danlos. Magnesium deficient conditions also produce photosensitivity. I'm suggesting that this photosensitivity is simply a feature of oxidative stress.

    These photosensitivity symptom, I think, are going to be in large part dependent upon how much ATP is available to maintain the ATPase pumps to power ionic sodium/glutamate transport. This will be influenced by the balance of cysteine/cystine, a feature of how much oxidative stress one has, and the extracellular concentration of glutamate. In other words, decreased photosensitivity could reflect improvement in redox status.
  11. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Very true, and "green" can sometimes signify very high plant-derived amines, nitrogen content, but more commonly very high cysteine. Some of these compounds are unfriendly to ME/CFS. Of course if you have no trouble with them, have at it. FWIW High-ORAC fruits are generally bifidogenic, high-ORAC vegetables, not so much.
    Asklipia likes this.
  12. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Thank you Vegas for your very interesting comments, which I shall ponder for a few days I think.:)

    He is leaner but not lighter. Same weight exactly. Which I think is a good sign that we are not going too fast. If there is fat loss (not sure) it can only be by adding extra water or muscle.
    There is no bloating whatsoever, nowhere, on the contrary.

    Let's hope this is the case!!!!

    Thankfully, we are not suffering of pancreatic insufficiency, impaired digestion, or inability to keep on weight. It is not that hunger is really suppressed, more like we do not need to eat so much, being very happy with two thirds to three quarters of our previous portions.

    I think it is indeed related to oxidative stress. It cannot be a magnesium deficiency, we swim in sea water one hour daily or when it cannot be done (about once or twice weekly) we take a bath at home in Epsom Salts.

    I agree with all of what you said. It was not really new to me, just wonderfully well presented. Thank you again for this. If someone had written this 10 years ago, it would have saved me much anguish. You are helping people that you do not know :):thumbsup:
    What is new and incredible is the POWER of those small teaspoons of Potato Starch.
    AMAZING!!!!!! :balloons:

    However, as you say
    I am willing to experiment, but I think caution is necessary, and as long as I see improvements I am not going tp raise my intake of PS, nor add extra probiotics.

    There is another observation I have to make : we feel the same effects we did when supplementing with K2 (MK4), and with B1 as well. If the dreams are a sign of more B6 being produced, this means that whatever we feed with Potato Starch is producing at least K2, B6 and B1, the deficiencies of which must have played a big role in our problems.
    This invisible supplementation coming from gut bacteria could be the reason why our appetite has been reduced. We just don't need all that food maybe?

    Be well!
    Lots of good wishes,
    Asklipia
    snowathlete and anne_likes_red like this.
  13. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Quick report-in: I have been taking RS and probiotics (the probiotics for years, added RS about 6 weeks ago) and am noticing a significant decline in OI and PEM. Almost scared to mention it at this point, but don't want to keep it to myself as others might benefit. I am taking 1 teaspoon daily.

    Yesterday I went for a half-hour bike ride (outside on a trail)--today, no PEM--unheard of for me! :woot:

    I also haven't needed to wear compression knee socks for about 10 days. Something is going on!

    Sushi
    PDXhausted, Hanna, RL_sparky and 12 others like this.
  14. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Sigh, sounds like my case. Gained weight and fatigue was worse :bang-head:.
    Asklipia likes this.
  15. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    That is a fantastic development, knock on wood. The OI is particularly notable, I think. While I don't struggle with this anymore, and only had moderate orthostatic hypotension in the past, I have a number of ideas about some of the things behind this; needless to say I think this is a GIT mediated phenomenon. As Asklipia noted about apparent fat loss with stable weight, I think this is not a contribution of muscle gain, but rather changes in osmolarity (the balance between water and electrolytes), with increased blood volume likely one of the positive consequences of this.

    The improvement in P.E.M. is most definitely the sort of thing I hope to hear from many people because this represents a core expression of the condition. I can't say I've had any change with P.E.M, with RS alone. Although I have been slowly improving over time with my attempts to re-establish the right organisms.

    I don't think this lack of change of P.E.M. in my cases is an indictment of the RS, rather it simply reflects how much potential to stimulate an immune response RS has, and these consequences can be favorable or unfavorable. In other words, in many they are not likely to realize gains in 6 weeks, and may actually regress, a little, at least transiently. I suspect, that your tight junctions are, well, "tighter," than many and you may continue to experience gains without so much backlash, provided you keep the RS at a reasonable level. This is probably a testament to how much work you have done to get where you are today. All that GcMAF, which you are now replacing with your own little GcMAF factories. If you can fundamentally change the environment, these organisms should continue to carry out these roles, indefinitely.

    I think, it is going to take very careful observation, for others, to understand what is happening. For example, my weekend of trying to help my son's lacrosse team was not so favorable, my P.E.M., was pretty typical. Nevertheless, the prominent lymphatic pain in my back that I have had for the last couple of years has started to dissipate, the food sensitivities are decreasing, with ebbs and flows, and the brain fog is becoming less and less noticeable. Intestinal integrity and BBB porosity go hand in hand. One cannot, however, expect universal symptom abatement if they are enlisting innate and adaptive immunity to such a degree that will occur via LPS mobilization. In this regard, I simply wanted to say that experiences are going to be diverse, so others should not get discouraged if initial attempts are met with heightened inflammation; there will need to be work-arounds and "dose" titration. Unfortunately, an initial worsening of some symptoms is probably more likely than not. You can't get something for nothing, but you can't get anything if you aren't willing to try.

    @Sushi I'm going out on a limb and say I think you are going to do very well and this is not an illusion. You really are likely treating the core pathophysiology, however unlikely this may seem.
  16. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    So take it slower. I noticed the RS to be constipating like other attempts to restore the intestinal microbiota produced when I would go too fast. It seems I have gotten past this.
    Asklipia likes this.
  17. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    @dmholmes

    I have had a couple of very good days mixed in with some really challenging ones over the last two months, including one that may have hit my top 20 list, just last week. That is a list I was hoping not to add to. Nevertheless, it is those glimpses of feeling pretty well, that keep me going. That and having developed some ideas about what perpetuates this awful illness, and acting as a witness to some of the changes that "theoretically" could happen if I could restore the microbiome. I underestimated the importance of the substrate, it is critical. It is my hope that you can find a way to make using it more tolerable. Your symptoms suggest to me that it is too much too fast.

    I can count on my hand the number of times I have felt these glimpses of hope in recent years, and most of them happened in the past month.
    Gestalt, Sidereal, Asklipia and 2 others like this.
  18. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    Just in the last year for me too. First time was milk thistle, second time was probiotics and prebiotics. Now if only I could make it repeatable...
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2014
  19. froufox

    froufox Senior Member

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    great to hear of the improvements experienced by some on here! :) Just wanted to ask if anyone else has experienced continued lymphatic swelling? I continued to take just 1/3-1/2 teaspoon of RS per *week* (my last dose was over a week ago) and my lymph nodes keep swelling up, in my armpits, neck and groin. I did an enema about 10 days ago and afterwards I had severe pain in the lymph node in my right groin...my lymph nodes also swell up after ive eaten food, not every time, about half the time i guess. Im getting a bit worried :confused: Anyone else experienced this? thanks.
    Asklipia and anne_likes_red like this.
  20. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    Frou, sorry you're still getting some grief!!

    My lymph swelling only resolved around 3 weeks after completely stopping RS. The few days before it stopped it was only noticeable intermittently.
    I had hard, sore swollen nodes mainly in the inguinal (horizontal) region with burning extending down my thighs...and right to the feet at it's most extreme. Neck and underarm were not an on going problem for me although I did notice them from time to time.

    I've since been able to re-start RS and the worst of the symptoms it's provoked have resolved quickly, though I have a mild burning sensation much of the time.....hardly noticible though, and no painful swelling so far.

    Things I've found help: bouncing on a lymphasiser, hot & cold therapy (ice baths/warm baths or hot and cold packs) plus some of Sushi's detox baths...and one of my own when I confused white powders and put in icing sugar instead of sodium bicarbonate...:confused:
    Detox clays felt good too. I also started taking zinc.

    I'm holding back at 1 tsp 2 x per week for now, thought I'd build up to daily but I'm not willing to go through the past month's challenges again. Yesterday I started taking larch arabinogalactan (Thorne's Arabinex) which hopefully won't confuse things too much. ...The possibility of less lymph congestion is too tempting for me not to try it.

    Maybe something there ^ is helpful?? If I were you I'd stop the RS until discomfort is resolved 100%. My impression is it's doing important work....but leaky gut issues mean you'll need to manage it extra carefully.
    Anne.:)
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