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ME/CFS and the Magic of the Canine Factor
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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Useful tip (I hope):
    • -emia relates to blood
    • -uria relates to urine.
    adreno likes this.
  2. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    A biological dentist that does a type of kinesiology testing told me that. I had taken less than a bottle of molybdenum a few years earlier.

    Then later I found articles like this one http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10616042 and read some old books about uric acid (readit here: https://archive.org/details/uricacidasafact02haiggoog )and decided to get minerals except potassium and magnesium from food.

    I had also had a C scan done for a heart problem and wonder if the molybdenum was from the radioisotopes but don't know anyone that can help with that question.
  3. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    You trust kinesiology testing to inform you of molybdenum in your thyroid?
  4. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I guess I do. The information that I found because of what he said, and the possibility existing that taking in molybdenum makes it possible. I used something to get heavy metals out, and my thyroid started to work a lot better.

    The article I listed and other information I have read radiating in different directions from there make me think I wouldn't try supplementing metals again.

    I have three friends at work with very serious autoimmune diseases that are off their medications, which didn't work anyway, and getting well by taking advice from someone who uses kinesiology. One lady has lupus and was out of work on disability earlier this year. She was able to come back to work in less than 2 months. Another one is a young lady with Sjogrens and rheumatoid arthritis. She's off her meds and doing much better. The third one is the young lady's mother who used to miss weeks of work and take antibiotics several times a year. She hasn't had to take antibiotics in just over a year now. There's other people going to the place, but those are the most dramatic cases.

    The place is called The Well of Life, and it's located in Doylestown, PA, incase anyone is interested and lives in the area.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  5. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Magnesium and calcium are metals, as far as I know.

    For the moment I am not convinced that molybdenum has got stuck in your thyroid. I hope not! :)
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  6. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I guess the bottom line is that different people use pieces of information different ways. The information he gave me was not definitive, but useful.
  7. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Correct. If I do have SIBO, it's not something that impacts me as far as I can tell. At the moment, I'm trying to build up diversity.
  8. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I seem to be getting a great big dose of NO based upon my symptoms and the effects this can produce as this signalling molecule does its thing influencing the many subservient processes, and it is not fun. I seem to be having intermittent but diminished vasodilatory symptoms, and less lymphatic pain, but lots of that very unpleasant cytokine pain (you know the kind you get when you are fighting a virus), irritability, and nausea, which has persisted for the last four days despite the fact that I am not taking anything that would precipitate these symptoms.

    Obviously this is completely speculative, but I think this may imply that there is enhanced synthesis of arginine via NOS. I think the NADPH availability is what is running the show. In fact the energy is eerily reminiscent of when I took stabilized NADH, before the eventual crash that would always follow.

    This is similar to the effect I get from glycophospholipids and to the symptoms that accompany carbohydrate elimination (without the energy enhancement), yet it is sort of on autopilot now. In other words, these symptoms are brought about by the immune enhancement and the secondary endotoxin displacement, which seems to be taking place more in the GIT and less in lymphatic system. In my view, this is simply a milder variation of a herx reaction, without the antibiotic or probiotic stimulus. Translation, this would seem to be created by the expansion of commensal organisms, the increased mitochondrial energy output, and the associated effects this would produce. There are other explanations, but I am struck by how similar this is to other experiences.

    It reminds me of a question I asked RVK about years ago concerning the building of the immune and detoxification response as the other processes of energy metabolism improved. It only made sense to me that this would have a cumulative effect, intensifying as processes were brought into greater efficiency. Reduced tetrahydrofolate, cysteine, and glutathone would impact many functions, but all of these are dependent upon availability of NADPH. I continue to believe that the importance of butyrate to colonocytes in energy synthesis has been grossly underestimated, and there is an obvious control point where the cysteine and nitrogen metabolism intersects. There has to be concurrent control over the synthesis of energy and DNA.

    Perhaps what is happening is a positive development in that the pathogen displacement is seemingly building and the extra-GIT symptoms are not as bad, but as I have feared, if this happens, one has very little control over the associated inflammatory response. My accupressure technique on the outside of the foot is helping quite a bit with the nausea, but I am going to need to find some more symptomatic relief. I also couldn't help but have noticed how everyone in my entire household was incredibly irritable by day 2 after the last RS+bifidobacterial fix, among other symptoms. I was just hoping some poor guy didn't come to the door trying to sell something.

    Regardless of my usual impulsive speculation about what may be happening, I simply wanted to be certain to point out the very prominent adverse effects that can accompany this process for the sake that someone may recognize these, and also for purpose of full disclosure. It remains to be seen if I will take a jump forward or be left mired in this state of heightened inflammation, I expect a little bit of both in the next few weeks based upon my more extended history trying to exorcise these demons.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
    anne_likes_red and Asklipia like this.
  9. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Maybe I spoke too soon. I'm going to stop taking Primal Defense Ultra. Something funny happened to me with it. I'll share my story in case anyone it helps anyone.

    Again, I don't have ME/CFS and was just taking Primal Defense Ultra for some keystone diversity and I take ~4 Tbsp of PS/day. I was feeling really good. Last year I had yeast/candida issues, but I put those issue successfully into remission with RS, starches and fermented foods (kimchi, sauerkraut, kefir). Never had any problems with those fermented foods.

    So, two weeks ago I was taking Richard Nikoley's protocol of these three probiotics:

    Prescript Assist: Arthrobacter agilis, Arthrobacter citreus, Arthrobacter globiformis, Arthrobacter luteus, Arthrobacter simplex, Acinetobacter calcoaceticus, Azotobacter chroococcum, Azotobacter paspali, Azospirillum brasiliense, Azospirillum lipoferum, Bacillus brevis, Bacillus marcerans, Bacillus pumilus, Bacillus polymyxa, Bacillus subtilis, Bacteroides lipolyticum, Bacteriodes succinogenes, Brevibacterium lipolyticum, Brevibacterium stationis, Kurthia zopfii, Myrothecium verrucaria, Pseudomonas calcis, Pseudomonas dentrificans, Pseudomonas fluorescens, Pseudomonas glathei, Phanerochaete chrysosporium, Streptomyces fradiae, Streptomyces cellulosae, Streptomyces griseoflavus.
    AOR Probiotic 3: Streptococcus faecalis T-110, Clostridium butyricum TO-A, Bacillus mesentericus TO-A
    Garden of Life Primal Defense Ultra: SACCHAROMYCES BOULARDII, LACTOBACILLUS PLANTARUM, BACILLUS SUBTILIS. Lactobacillus Paracasei, Bifidobacterium Longum, Bifidobacterium Bifidum, BIFIDOBACTERIUM BREVE, Bifidobacterium Lactis, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, LACTOBACILLUS CASEI, Lactobacillus Rhamnosus, Lactobacillus Salivarius, LACTOBACILLUS BREVIS


    Mentally, I was feeling the sharpest I've ever felt taking those probiotics. Really terrific. But after a few days they gave me a slight stomach cramp (I likely ramped up too quickly). Anyway, I took a few days off and then backed down to just 1 pill per day of Primal Defense Ultra, which is 1/3rd the full recommended dose and still taking my 4 Tbsp of PS/day.

    Well, I was feeling great and I went to a farmer's market where they were selling kombucha. I've had this kombucha before without any issues, but within an hour or two of drinking 4oz of it I had debilitating brain fog. It was awful and every time I took RS it got bad again. After a day of terrible brain fog, I stopped RS and Primal Defense Ultra for two days. Things went back to normal.

    So, I started up 1 pill/day of the Primal Defense Ultra again and felt fine until I took a single Tablespoonful of homemade kefir that I bought at the farmer's market followed by my RS. Boom. Massive brain fog again.

    This is very abnormal for me, and I think it's the Primal Defense Ultra that's putting my LABs into overdrive. I suppose it's possible there could be a yeast connection, but I've never had any problems with those foods before. The only thing I'm doing differently is using Primal Defense Ultra.

    So for me I think this is what's happening...

    Primal Defense Ultra + RS = feeling fine
    kefir + RS = feeling fine
    Primal Defense Ultra + kombucha + RS = debilitating brain fog
    Primal Defense Ultra + kefir + RS = debilitating brain fog​

    That's my best guess as to what's happening to me, and this is coming from someone who would say their health is in good shape. Maybe this means I have SIBO. (I don't know because it never bothered me before this as far as I can tell).

    And the brain fog seems to wear off about 12 hours after last dose of RS + Primal Defense Ultra.

    So, I'm stopping everything for a few days and no more Primal Defense Ultra for me. I'll start up RS again in two days or so and if I feel like taking a probiotic again I'll probably stick to a pure SBO like Prescript Assist that I've never had a problem with before.

    Hat tip to @adreno for pointing out what I should have realized. It's just hard to think straight once the brain fog hits like a ton of bricks.

    If nothing else, hopefully my n=1 observations helps someone out there.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  10. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @Vegas, those are annoying symptoms, sorry to hear that. I hope you and your family feel better soon. Let us know if you think of anything to help.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  11. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Thank you for all these thoughts Vegas. Something definitely is happening and you may well be right.
    Nausea = the best I find is to have a piece of fresh ginger in the fridge and take a nibble when it happens. This reverses the flow of energy immediately and for a few hours.
  12. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Sorry if this has already been asked - this is a long thread now!

    But has anyone on RS had any improvement in their chronic sinusitis? I know there's a whole microbiome in our sinuses and don't know to what extent, if any, an improvement in the gut microbiome would affect the sinus microbiome.
  13. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    Richard did see improvements in sinus problems once he'd added in 3 probiotics.

    http://freetheanimal.com/2014/02/probiotics-component-obesity.html
    Sasha likes this.
  14. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    I do not have (or my husband) chronic sinusitis anymore, but we both felt an effect from just the PS in making the sinuses dryer and the eyes freer in their orbits.
    Be well!
    Sasha likes this.
  15. thomas_3000

    thomas_3000

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    @Sasha I haven't noticed improvements. I'm currently trailing a nasal drip with a mixture of xylitol, sea salt and baking soda, 3 times day. I notice temporary improvements, but nothing systematic. I'll try adding Johnson's baby shampoo next, if I can get my hands on it here in Europe (yes baby shampoo. Google it, it's been used in research).

    I've gotten a lot better - up to the point where I'm pretty darn close to being symptom free - but there's been no correlating improvement regarding the sinusitis. Maybe these things take time.
    I also have dandruff btw. Both, from very low carb I reckon.

    Does anyone have a good suggestion against dandruff? Perhaps rubbing some kefir on my head? ;-) (only half kidding here, that might actually work since kefir contains l. plantarum, which is a key species to treat eczema. Both dandruff and eczema are a form of seborheicc dermatitis, I believe).
    Sasha likes this.
  16. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    I'm not on RS, but I sorted out my sinus congestion, which nothing else really helped with, by cutting out gluten and reducing sugar and grains, and maybe it was partly due to the supplements I'm taking too (see my profile). I don't have dairy, which may be another trigger.

    I don't know whether improvement was due to an impact on the sinus microbiome or not.
  17. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Do you mean you're using that stuff in nasal irrigation? What quantities?

    I hadn't heard about the baby shampoo thing - thanks, I'll look that up.

    Glad you're having such positive results!
  18. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    @Sasha
    We cured our sinus problems by vaping turmeric. Whenever we meet people we do it when we come home.
    Cheap and easy. It wakes up the brain too.
  19. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    What's vaping? :sluggish:

    Why do you do it when you meet people?

    I think I'm missing something, somehow!
    South likes this.
  20. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    Vaping = inhaling not smoke but vapor.
    What a nice little slug!!!! :sluggish: I hadn't noticed it was available! ;)

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