The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[finalgates]

I was actually just thinking about an hour ago about something pertaining to this because of a pain that I got on the side of my foot about 10 minutes after taking 1/2 of a Primal Defense SBO. I was thinking that the RS and probiotic cause die off of bacteria, endotoxin release, and since the gut is leaky the LPS gets into the bloodstream. Then it is precipitated in your own special area. The books about gout by Alexander Haig that I read several years ago when I woke up one morning with severe joint and tendon pain describe it as a sieve type action. Where there is some sort of deposit, more gets deposited. It especially gets deposited if the pH of the blood can't keep it in solution. My particular spot for sharp pain is in my left foot where I had a callus from a shoe that didn't fit right many years ago. I did have pain in the joint of my big toe about a week ago, and yesterday I had it in my knees.

Edit in: Alexander Haig's books are from cerca 1900, so when he did autopsies he found uric acid deposits, but didn't have the capability to find macrophages or LPS, so that wasn't taken into consideration.

Since reading here I'm not sure right now where the uric acid fits in, but maybe someone else can clear that up.
I did see an article explaining the connection between gout and LPS. I'll see if I can find it.

good answer.so i stop RS.start sacharomyces boulardii and if i get the same symtoms it will mean detox then i will continue rs.

 

[Violeta]

good answer.so i stop RS.start sacharomyces boulardii and if i get the same symtoms it will mean detox then i will continue rs.

I think that's a logical conclusion, and I like it, but I'm not sure. Someone else will have to help with that.

PS: I usually have to cut back on purines, though. He does say that potassium helps. He calls it potash, just in case you go to his online books and want to do searches in them. They were very helpful.

 

[Ripley]

I don't think he means that they want an alkaline colon, just that their colon is alkaline, Ripley, believe it or not.

(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

That's what I figured!

 

[Vegas]

Sorry, but why would anyone want to maintain an alkaline colon? I assume you mean people are inadvertently maintaining their colon alkaline in an undesirable way — by not eating enough fermentable fibers. The more fermentation that happens (a good thing), the more acidic the colon becomes.

The paradox of eating more alkaline foods is that many alkaline foods get fermented into SCFAs, which makes the colon more acidic. And that's considered to be a good thing since an acidic gut makes the gut environment inhospitable to pathogens and switches pathogens into benign organisms.

Yes, you got it, I am saying that the SBO's can tolerate this higher pH more readily than other organisms, so they may provide benefits to the host because they can flourish is such an inhospitable, alkaline environment. I didn't mean to imply that this alkalinity was desirable. I should compose things more carefully, I suppose, and I am instructed to use shorter posts, which I think is only appropriate. Unfortunately, my ADD has its residual consequences, and I've been working late these past couple of weeks due to too much time on message boards. Don't tell my boss, he is a real jerk, is too long-winded, and thinks he understands chemistry.

 

[Vegas]

I was actually just thinking about an hour ago about something pertaining to this because of a pain that I got on the side of my foot about 10 minutes after taking 1/2 of a Primal Defense SBO. I was thinking that the RS and probiotic cause die off of bacteria, endotoxin release, and since the gut is leaky the LPS gets into the bloodstream. Then it is precipitated in your own special area. The books about gout by Alexander Haig that I read several years ago when I woke up one morning with severe joint and tendon pain describe it as a sieve type action. Where there is some sort of deposit, more gets deposited. It especially gets deposited if the pH of the blood can't keep it in solution. My particular spot for sharp pain is in my left foot where I had a callus from a shoe that didn't fit right many years ago. I did have pain in the joint of my big toe about a week ago, and yesterday I had it in my knees.

Edit in: Alexander Haig's books are from cerca 1900, so when he did autopsies he found uric acid deposits, but didn't have the capability to find macrophages or LPS, so that wasn't taken into consideration.

Since reading here I'm not sure right now where the uric acid fits in, but maybe someone else can clear that up.
I did see an article explaining the connection between gout and LPS. I'll see if I can find it.

Alexander Haig? He always inspired a lot of confidence when he declared that he was in charge in '81 when Reagan was shot. I guess he knows what he is talking about, outside of constitutional law.

I think we do have these localized areas of inflammation, these "special areas" as you call them, which I strongly suspect is not simply a feature of osteoarthritis. My "joint" symptoms, albeit mild, came about only in the last couple of years, mostly with the fermented foods. My wife has gotten this too, as have others I know. Knees and the great toe are exactly the areas where this is generally experienced. (Yes I understand that knees are the most common site of early osteoarthritis) I think there are some plausible explanations apart from OA. We shall see.

 

[MeSci]

That is a good paper. It makes me think I should try some strategies for some of the SIBO causes.

Just noticed that the paper says that humans can't metabolise d-lactate. I actually have another paper that says we can!

 

[Violeta]

Alexander Haig? He always inspired a lot of confidence when he declared that he was in charge in '81 when Reagan was shot. I guess he knows what he is talking about, outside of constitutional law.

I think we do have these localized areas of inflammation, these "special areas" as you call them, which I strongly suspect is not simply a feature of osteoarthritis. My "joint" symptoms, albeit mild, came about only in the last couple of years, mostly with the fermented foods. My wife has gotten this too, as have others I know. Knees and the great toe are exactly the areas where this is generally experienced. (Yes I understand that knees are the most common site of early osteoarthritis) I think there are some plausible explanations apart from OA. We shall see.

I don't know if you're kidding or not, but it's a different Alexander Haig.

"Uric Acid as a factor in the causation of disease" may explain where the uric acid was in those earlier years.
I was eating raw dairy when the pain went into my joints, but I can't remember if I making it into yogurt or kefir at that time. I was juicing pineapple(acidic + uric acid + pathogen + mercury + +calcium?), though, I do remember that. I had already had chronic fatigue for a long time, and migraines for many years. The uric acid was in my blood, glands, and probably lungs.

Do and your wife still have the joint pain?

Maybe the real reason is somewhere in between Haig's uric acid theory (backed up by lots of measuring of uric acid in/uric acid out/healing) and what we know now and don't yet know...

Something is sequestering something, I don't know the sequence. Maybe when I'm feeling better I'll be able to piece it together. Or find a paper that already pieced it together.

 

[Violeta]

Yes, you got it, I am saying that the SBO's can tolerate this higher pH more readily than other organisms, so they may provide benefits to the host because they can flourish is such an inhospitable, alkaline environment. I didn't mean to imply that this alkalinity was desirable. I should compose things more carefully, I suppose, and I am instructed to use shorter posts, which I think is only appropriate. Unfortunately, my ADD has its residual consequences, and I've been working late these past couple of weeks due to too much time on message boards. Don't tell my boss, he is a real jerk, is too long-winded, and thinks he understands chemistry.

Who is your boss?

 

[Vegas]

Just noticed that the paper says that humans can't metabolise d-lactate. I actually have another paper that says we can!

There are practical and hypothetical considerations here. Does a human enzyme exists that specifically metabolizes D-lactate? well not a true DHO, but a parallel enzymatic reaction, which can carry out metabolism of the D isomer is presumed to be in place based upon its presence in other organisms. I do not think that this has actually been confirmed, but the logic behind this argument appears to be sound. The practical consideration is that the parallel reaction, I think, would be similarly inhibited by the problems we face created by this mitochondrial disease, namely the interconversion between lactate and pyruvate.

In the "famous" article relating to D-lactic acidosis co-authored by KDM, I seem to recall that they strongly suggested if not stated that the human d-lactate metabolism, even in healthy humans, was of minimal consequence. (But you might want to check their characterization of this). Regardless, as I said above, I think if the parallel pathway works, it is not going to work too well. There are also probably explanations for the absence of specific D-lactate DHO that has evolved with the organisms we carry with us. I came to this conclusion, in part because all the hypotheses about D-Lactic acidosis, in ME/CFS and other disease processes seem to revolve around a microbial explanation versus a failure of the human lactate metabolism.

 

[Vegas]

I don't know if you're kidding or not, but it's a different Alexander Haig.

"Uric Acid as a factor in the causation of disease" may explain where the uric acid was in those earlier years.
I was eating raw dairy when the pain went into my joints, but I can't remember if I making it into yogurt or kefir at that time. I was juicing pineapple(acidic + uric acid + pathogen + mercury + +calcium?), though, I do remember that. I had already had chronic fatigue for a long time, and migraines for many years. The uric acid was in my blood, glands, and probably lungs.

Do and your wife still have the joint pain?

Maybe the real reason is somewhere in between Haig's uric acid theory (backed up by lots of measuring of uric acid in/uric acid out/healing) and what we know now and don't yet know...

Something is sequestering something, I don't know the sequence. Maybe when I'm feeling better I'll be able to piece it together. Or find a paper that already pieced it together.

Sorry, I was kidding about Al Haig.

Joint pain is still intermittent.

I don't have time to go into the uric acid thing, but, in brief, it was Paul Cheney who established that hypouricemia is nearly universal in ME/CFS, (obviously there are exceptions, but according to him this is a defining characteristic) this can get real confusing when you start to talk about urea and uric acid, purine foods, high-nitrogen containing foods but there are common denominators. To me this was not hard to understand given the importance of the needing to interact in the deamination of amino acids to prevent collateral harm, particularly ammonia and methionine. Recall I said that the finding is that most with ME/CFS, according to Paul Cheney, have, "some of the lowest uric acid levels I have ever seen." (paraphrasing).

Now I expect that these levels may be a good predictor of fundamental improvement in one part of the metabolism that I think we are aiming to improve with the probiotic/prebiotic combination.

As an aside, this is where molybdenum can help and hurt. A good mineral to have on board in some quantity, I think, provided it is done gradually. There is a complex interrelationship between multiple reactions involved in the metabolism of some really unpleasant compounds, some of these have been suppressed for years, and you don't want to overdo it. Yet another reaction that can change in concert with the improved efficiency of the urea cycle.

 

[Violeta]

Sorry, I was kidding about Al Haig.

Joint pain is still intermittent.

I don't have time to go into the uric acid thing, but, in brief, it was Paul Cheney who established that hypouricemia is nearly universal in ME/CFS, (obviously there are exceptions, but according to him this is a defining characteristic) To me this was not hard to understand given the importance of the needing to interact in the deamination of amino acids to prevent collateral harm, particularly ammonia and methionine. Recall I said that the finding is that most with ME/CFS, according to Paul Cheney, have, "some of the lowest uric acid levels I have ever seen." (paraphrasing).

Now I expect that these levels may be a good predictor of fundamental improvement in one part of the metabolism that I think we are aiming to improve with the probiotic/prebiotic combination.

As an aside, this is where molybdenum can help and hurt. A good mineral to have on board in some quantity, I think, provided it is done gradually. There is a complex interrelationship between multiple reactions involved in some really unpleasant compounds, some of these have been suppressed for years, and you don't want to overdo it. Yet another reaction that can change in concert with the improved efficiency of the urea cycle.

You don't happen to know if Paul Cheyney measured blood levels of uric acid, do you? I believe uric acid levels can be low even with high blood levels because the uric acid isn't being excreted which causes the problems.

Even blood levels can vary according to time of day, temperature, pH of blood(if it's acidic the uric acid will be precipitated into soft tissue).

I did take molybdenum for a while but it ended up in my thyroid for some strange reason.

And yes, the probiotics and prebiotics help, I am able to eat much more purine foods now than a year ago. Choline/inositol and reishi seemed to have helped along the way, too.

Okay, you got me on that one. Probably showing off that you know your history, too.

 

[Vegas]

Who is your boss?

I guess my wife, but I was referring to myself, hence the reason I need to get back to work or my real boss is not going to be happy.

 

[Violeta]

Ha, it's good to know who's in charge, good boy.

 

[Vegas]

You don't happen to know if Paul Cheyney measured blood levels of uric acid, do you? I believe uric acid levels can be low even with high blood levels because the uric acid isn't being excreted which causes the problems.

Even blood levels can vary according to time of day, temperature, pH of blood(if it's acidic the uric acid will be precipitated into soft tissue).

Okay, you got me on that one. Probably showing off that you know your history, too.

Not sure I understand your question, but he reportedly measured 24 hour urine and blood. He was pretty drawn into this finding given its connections with peroxynitrite.

 

[Violeta]

I had to take the dogs out for a walk before the rain started, sorry for the delay.

My fault, I thought hypouricemia meant urine levels. Sorry. I am making a list of terms to look up, but am way behind. So that's interesting, and I'll have to look up what peroxynitrite means, where he thinks the purines are and what kind of damage they do, what if anything is in the blood instead. Maybe the peroxynitrite will answer all those questions. Thanks.

 

[Violeta]

Not sure I understand your question, but he reportedly measured 24 hour urine and blood. He was pretty drawn into this finding given its connections with peroxynitrite.

I couldn't find an explanation on his website, I'll have to keep looking. I found a paper that explained what they thought might be happening, which is that the uric acid is an antioxidant for peroxynitrite, so I guess that's what he is saying.

The study said that peroxynitrite, when mixed with a solution containing uric acid, produced a carbon centered free radical. So one of the things I am wondering is are these free radicals seen in the blood of people with ME/CFS.

Does he administer or advise extra purine foods or supplements, or maybe even pure uric acid, if there is such a supplement?

I am severely handicapped in chemistry, but what I think the information that I found below is saying that uric acid breaks down into peroxynitrite and a few other molecules.

I tried to find a balanced equation for NO3- + C5H4N4O3, but found this. However, the NO3 in the balanced equation doesn't have a - after it. I don't know if that changes things.

C5H4N4O3 = NO3 + CH4 + CN3 + C3

 

[Lou]

Well, it's certainly good to see this thread has thrived since I last visited (approx. 1 month), though maybe somewhat of a girly dog catching up reading through some of the obscure (for me) chemistry-laden posts. Speaking of which, I'd in no way wish to inhibit any of them, in fact found them fascinating---sadly though, more like a Boston bull terrier glued to a TV program, and even sadder the dog is probably getting a better drift of things.

I'm sure, however, since this is the RS thread that much of the back and forth is about the intricacies, the nuts and bolts, of how what we're doing is actually affecting our body chemistry, mostly good, hopefully, and where negatively, ideas are being passed along to address those issues.

Was on RS protocol 4-5 weeks before leaving for trip previously planned and where continuing RS was not feasible.

For now, just a couple of short notes:

Overall, I definitely think things turned for the worse when off RS, less energy, more intolerances (chemical and food), fewer days of clear thinking, etc.

Am somewhat reluctant even bringing this up (like many of you it annoys me when with all our problems something cosmetic is discussed), but a few days after arriving in Argentina I noticed a considerable fallout of short terminal hairs from my scalp (since getting Lyme in 2012 hair thinning has been a symptom). While quite a few things (stress, exhaustion, fatigue) after a grueling flight and new surroundings could explain the sudden fallout, none of them throw light on why the little hairs decided to start growing. I suspect RS.

You may guess I have sorely missed this thread and the world of information gotten here and it's a real added bonus of being home. Oh, and Thomas, that running count on your afternoon, uh, can't think atm of less crude word, your up to the minute count on a particular afternoon's farts was classic. I laughed til it hurt, just the way you said it, 'three, uh, wait, make that four'.

 

[Asklipia]

I did take molybdenum for a while but it ended up in my thyroid for some strange reason.

How do you know that, Violeta? A thyroid biopsy ?

 

[adreno]

I'll leave the medical questions to @Vegas but I wonder why people have this idea that lactic acid producing bacteria is better/safer than SBOs? Aren't lactic acid bacteria the kind that contribute to SIBO? And don't they tend to just get chewed up by stomach acids? And aren't they really difficult to change the numbers of via probiotics? I kind of feel like they are just old-school probiotics that don't do all that much (other than reduce acute diarrhea). Most people don't get enough SBOs — which are normally found in healthy guts — since most people live an overly hygienic lifestyle.

Sorry, I am a little confused since you said a few posts earlier that you are supplementing Primal Defense - which is full of LABs - so why would you do that? Is it because you don't have SIBO?

 

[thomas_3000]

Update:

- Energy levels getting better.
- Sleep getting much better. Woke up at 5.30 (having slept 6,5/7 hours) and I couldn't sleep anymore, mind was pretty active. Now, I did some weightlifting yesterday that was particularly taxing on my CNS (squat, deadlift) and I walked for ±2 hours. Normally this would mean 10 hours of sleep and waking up feeling extremely tired. Not the case at all today.

BM regularity is amazing, like clockwork. Although it's shifting from Bristol Type Awesome to 'a little too loose'. This is a sign that I should lower the magnesium supplementation, I guess?
- Foul smelling flatulence is totally gone.
- Flatulence was almost entirely absent for 2 days (which was UNHEARD of for me), even with a pretty significant supplemental fiber intake. It's come back a bit now, although still fairly insignificant. I have had some 'tummy rumblings' and a feeling that I need to pass wind. This could be the whey shake I drank yesterday (stupid, shouldn't have done that. 99% of those things are crap anyway).

Maybe I'm in remission*, or close to? I'm going to wait a week or 2 before declaring anything like that. I've been battling this IBS/(self-diagnosed) CFS for too long to declare things too quickly.

* Remission for me means: little to no symptoms whilst eating a healthy diet (= Perfect Health Diet + ample amounts of kefir. Although I've started including some gluten free oats - not sure if that's such a great idea actually).