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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Many thanks for the tip on the 4-aminobutyric acid. I don't have these issues, so I couldn't effectively test them on myself. Your experience is very much appreciated. I will check that out and titrate as she is about 40 kg.

    So do you think the Mg Threonate's mechanism of action is primarily mediated by the threonic acid vs. the availability of the Magnesium? Both obviously would have a positive effect on glutamate metabolism, but it would seem a large enough dosage of something like Mg Glycinate would do the same, if it were truly the mineral and not the amino acid. I will have to look into this myself, just wondering if you have any thoughts on this.

    In this regard do you have any particular reaction to Vitamin C, especially a highly bioavailable form, since threonic acid can be metabolized from ascorbic acid.
     
  2. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    I really went overboard on yogurt with pectin on Sunday, and that combined with extra sunshine made me so sick yesterday, and I still don't feel okay yet today. It's strange how the direction of the messages here was such a help. Last night seeing the mention of magnesium and the effect of sunshine, I put together a theory about what to take and it really worked.

    I figured the extra D might be either suppressing the Th1 branch of the immune system OR causing too much calcium to be absorbed, so I took some Vitamin A and E. (I used to try K2, but that alone doesn't do it, so I thought my theory was invalid.) If the extra Vitamin D did cause extra calcium to be absorbed, more magnesium would be helpful. If the calcium was meeting up with something in my bloodstream and forming fibrin, then proteolytic enzymes would help.

    So I took all that and the pain in my head and upper spinal chord eased up very quickly, I was able to straighten up my body when I walked, the nausea even reduced, and I was able to fall asleep.

    To Vegas and all, does the extra sunshine bother you the day you are getting it or the day after?

    On a tangent, maybe, but I think I'm going to try to stick to a more Asian type diet, rice, vegetables, with just a small amount of environmentally raised shrimp and see if that helps. I have to actually pray for help from above to not overdo the PS or probiotics.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
  3. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    @Vegas, What part would choline/lecithin play in this, if you have time for a short explanation. Thanks.
     
  4. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I'm not really into theories :), but I have some ideas about re-mineralization and pH. You could be looking at both taking place, but I would guess that pH changes would happen much more rapidly. These things may both improve with restoration of the oral microbiome or the organisms in the lower GIT, which is obviously interconnected. There is more than just the obvious GIT patency but also the secondary lymphatic connections, which disseminate microorganism, and are really not well understood. This could involve more generalized reduction of acidity in the body (except in the colon), versus changes oral pH.

    My daughter just, this week, finished her 6th grade science project relating to tooth decay. She subjected teeth, well actually limestone, to different acids, sugar, and carbonated beverage. Acid beverages were notably damaging, but highly carbonated water actually proved to be the most effective at breaking down the calcium carbonate. Could have been experimental error in play as this was a 6th grader. It would be interesting to see a bacterial component added as a variable. I would have to wonder if anyone could record a change in oral pH. Recently I have found myself rubbing my teeth. I have to think that reduced friction equals reduced porosity of the enamel.

    I guess I'm thinking most about a change in the acid/base ratio. Just being able to have this discussion, though, is, in my mind, notable.
     
  5. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Just simply looking at this for the benefits provided by phospholipids. I generally think it is prudent to start with raw materials to improve cellular function. These seem to be reasonably well tolerated.
     
  6. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I generally think sunshine has contrasting effects dependent upon the status of the innate immune system. Some will feel better, some will feel worse depending upon how compromised their immune systems are, their respective pathogenic load, how much Vitamin D bioavailability plays a part in their immunocompromised status, etc. Actually, the trend I have observed is that it helps the day of the exposure, and it hurts the following couple of days as you deal with the consequences of the Vit. D synthesis. Its effects will drop off after the consequences of the immune stimulation. It's like the other stuff, good for you, but may have temporarily adverse consequences. Honestly, I haven't thought much about this, this is just anecdotal stuff.
     
  7. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Yes, both of them taking place, that makes sense. Reduce the oral pH by correcting the colon pH. That's interesting, isn't it?

    And with respect to: "There is more than just the obvious GIT patency but also the secondary lymphatic connections, which disseminate microorganism, and are really not well understood."

    my thoughts exactly. :whistle: Only kidding, I wish I could think like that, though.

    I wonder if the LPS causing calcium to deposit into phagocytes has anything to do with displacement.

    So carbonated waters are harder on teeth than even acidic beverages? I have some of both, I think I'll check the pH of each. I know coke is 4.5. Some say carbonated water is good for you, some say not. I have heard it's hard on the kidneys, and I have heard that the kidneys have something to do with calcification/decalcification of the teeth.

    In the books that I read about uric acid, the author says that uric acid causes decay at the roots of the teeth, FWIW.

    I found some pH strips for measuring oral pH the other day, I will keep tract of any changes.
     
  8. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    That does make sense. Extra Vitamin d, as it becomes available, enables the immune system, extra LPS or whatever in the blood stream along with extra calcium making the blood thick, slowing down circulation.

    I think some of the adverse consequences can be helped by trying to keep the blood as thin as possible.
     
  9. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    The common theory is that the theonate is what gives the MgT the ability to cross the BBB much more effectively than other carriers. I have not had the same reaction to other forms og Mg, there really is a world of difference.

    Earlier on (a few years back) high vitamin C doses would cause me to crash (adrenals?), but now I feel pretty great on liposomal vit C, it is both energizing and gives me clearer thinking. I ascribe this to a boost in NE, as vit C increases the conversion from DA.
     
  10. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Well sort of, I think I mentioned the family of protein-serine/threonine kinases, this is an important one but there are other kinase enzyme groups. Kinases are enzymes that carry out phosphorylation; the phosphorylation of proteins is particularly important. Phosphorylation involves donating some phosphate groups, and adenosine triphosphate (ATP) has these in abundance. Unfortunately, some of us have more of this than others, and most don't recycle the end product of this very efficiently to get more of these phosphate groups from ATP. (remember adenosine TRI phosphate vs. adenosine MONOphosphate).

    Right now billions of dollars are being spent on finding ways to block the effects mediated by the serine/threonine kinase group of enzymes, with as much specificity as possible. It is a typical pharmaceutical strategy of trying to inhibit a process that has an underlying pathological explanation. The effect obtained by this enzymatic inhibition typically relates to suppression of inflammatory processes, like cancer. I'd say this is a noble cause. Of course there are effects of inhibiting these enzymes, this can suppress the immune response that precipitates these inflammatory responses. Actually, it necessarily has lots of effects because phosphorylation of proteins extends to virtually every physiological role in the body. This inhibits hydrolysis and it inhibits phosphorylation of myriad processes, including the phosphorylation of amines, and lipids that comprise the cell walls. There lots and lots of kinase enzymes, including some important ones in maintaining intestinal integrity like butyrate, histidine So in your example, this inhibition of kinase enzymes can also effect the synthesis or activation of something like plasminogen, a serine protease that of course breaks down proteins in the blood plasma. I mention this only so you can understand some of the consequences of impaired protein phosphorylation.

    So what is the connection, well it just so happens that are bacterial friends (or foes) have their own evolved kinase enzymes that are strikingly similar to those us humans have. Interestingly, and I think this can extend to other pathogens, but proteobacteria have a somewhat different set enzymes-structurally speaking compared with Firmicutes, and the researchers who are looking at this, at least to my knowledge, can't quite figure out why that is. These kinase enzymes that are so unique, specifically the BK group from proteobacterial origin influence the production of exopolysaccharides. I have an idea about what consequences this may have, and this one reason why I thought Bifidobacterial strains with exopolysaccharides biosynthesizing capacity may be of critical importance given that this would have immunomoudlatory properties, would be necessary for mucosal protection by affecting the junctions, and would participate in displacing pathogens that were contained within this exopolysaccharide matrix (aka biofilm). I'm not entirely sure of the significance of this, but, it's something that led me to Bifidobacteria. I don't doubt that other pathogens are involved, but I still haven't been able to find any better explanation than a scarcity of specific Bifidobacterial and Clostridial species.

    I was thinking about this, not only would a rapid rise in Bifidobacterial organisms cause an excessive immune response, but an increase in bioenergetics is going to do exactly the same thing, only with less specificity regarding its effects.
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2014
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  11. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Cool. So it has an escort through the BBB, hadn't thought of that. Thanks.

    Vitamin C: It used to do the same thing to me as well. Stimulatory and crash. I know my NE/E ratio is not like it once was. I think there could be other explanations, and I was wondering if it was the threonine pathway, which I think is still a possibility. Can't really separate this from catecholamine metabolism. It sounds like you must have made some progress regardless.
     
  12. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    Some anecdote from me too. :)

    Last year when I made a point of sitting in the sun for about 15 minutes a few times a week to get a Vitamin D 'fix', I commonly had a mild headache and mild nausea afterwards. I think I had the same thing when I started using my UVB lamp. But now I don't think I do.

    Wonder why that is...?
     
  13. Soporificat

    Soporificat

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    Help! Weird stuff is going on, and I need your scientific brains to help me figure it out. Just came back from the doctor, and he was useless.

    I've been taking 4Tb of raw potato starch per day for the past 3 weeks (I ramped up to it, but I've been on the full does that long). I take 2tb twice a day, each dose with a probiotic: L. reuteri; L. rhamnosus; and L. acidopholus in the morning, then at night I take a Jarrowdophilus pill which has a whole range of your typical probiotics (no SBO's though).

    Over the past week I have had elevated blood pressure. I always have 90/60 resting blood pressure, but now I'm having long periods of 125/75 blood pressure. Also, my body temp, which is normally below 98F, rises to 99F. My heart rate elevates somewhat as well, and it feels like it is pounding a little. All of this is clearly related to the RS/probiotics.

    The question is, I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing. It doesn't feel pleasant to me at all, but these vitals are probably better than my normal ones. Also, it is strikingly clear that the RS is doing something significant to my body, but I can't tell what that might be, as I have no explanation of what is going on.

    This response gets strongest and most intense if I have a decent sized meal, anytime after I have the first RS dose. Just a snack won't set it off. For example, today I had the RS at 9 am, but I only had a banana and some coffee w/ sugar and coconut milk until 12 noon, when I had 3 eggs and some rice noodles. This meal triggered a huge response about 30 minutes later.

    WHAT IS GOING ON?!!! Any thoughts? Do you think this is a good thing or a bad thing? Should I keep going or am I getting myself into trouble?

    One other thing: I have been on Freddd's methylation protocol for the past 7 months, but RS/probiotic is the only thing I've changed in the past 3 weeks.

    Also, I should mention that I have had ME/CFS (CCC) for 19 years, which is why I'm doing any of this. I had a GI profile done, and I was struck by how low all my good bacteria were, so I thought it would be smart to get those populations back up. Other than that I have no known bowel issues, although I am gluten and casein intolerant.
     
  14. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    @Soporificat

    My thyroid seems to have gone into overdrive from the RS, and your symptoms sound like they could match that too (elevated blood pressure, pulse and temperature).
     
  15. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Not RS, but relevant IMO due to butyrate.

    Effects of apples and specific apple components on the cecal environment of conventional rats: role of apple pectin

    "Our findings show that consumption of apple pectin (7% in the diet) increases the population of butyrate- and β-glucuronidase producing Clostridiales, and decreases the population of specific species within the Bacteroidetes group in the rat gut. Similar changes were not caused by consumption of whole apples, apple juice, purée or pomace."
     
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  16. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Different ultraviolet rays may have different effects on hydroxylation. I'm not certain, but that would be my guess.

    Also, expect a more dramatic effect after one has not been in the sun in a long time. Duration of effects could be lasting, hence the reason that Vitamin D from the Sun is water soluble...well of course there are other rate-limiting factors.
     
  17. Soporificat

    Soporificat

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    That was my initial thought, too, so I cut back on the thyroid (I normally take 75 mg per day of Armour; I reduced to 45 mg) and within two days I was nailed to the floor in exhaustion. I still need the thyroid support, so it's hard for me to say that it is increased thyroid. Maybe, though.
     
  18. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I've eaten an apple nearly every day of my life. It is a "detox" staple. Same reason I crave Kombucha: glucuronidation. Crave it big time every time I feel ill.
     
  19. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    More general effects than just thyroid, this is carried out by more fundamental cellular machinery. As I just said:

    "I was thinking about this, not only would a rapid rise in Bifidobacterial organisms cause an excessive immune response, but an increase in bioenergetics is going to do exactly the same thing, only with less specificity regarding its effects."

    Nearly every hormonal response will be influenced. Slow down the RS, now!
     
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  20. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    So why would I have had the headaches and nausea after both sun and lamp, but now don't? I think that I was getting regular sun exposure when I got the symptoms.

    There was a lack of sun for a long time recently in the UK, but I still don't seem to have had obvious adverse effects from the lamp, or the spring sun which has been quite intense.

    Maybe my health has improved...?
     

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