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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

froufox

Senior Member
Messages
440
same here Anne!! I unleashed a monster too :eek: I wasn't sure if it was a healing crisis or what...it almost felt like the start of ME all over again which was very disconcerting to say the least. However i think it was probably a "healing crisis" of some sort...i had pints of mucus appearing from everywhere, severe violent sneezing, swollen glands and generally feeling absolutely dreadful and it was unrelenting. Was that similar to what you experienced? I'm feeling a bit better now thankfully, i hope you're ok! I'm glad the clay and bentonite helped. :)
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
I'm personally not going anywhere near tablespoons again in the foreseeable...:nervous:
It's been well over a week since I did. Never mind free the animal, I unleashed a beast!
Thanks for the clay recommendation....(Violeta and Frou I think). It really helps. I used calcium bentonite and some "detox clay" (which tastes like dirt). I can't tell which one helps more.

Little and not too often is the plan....:rolleyes:

PS Thanks from me too Vegas.

I am sorry that you are having an apparent adverse symptomatic response, but I hope this strengthens your belief that this response is a meaningful development. The innate immune system is, in my estimation at the heart of this, and this is going to be energized, quite dramatically, by what you are doing. It would be unreasonable to think innate immunity would not be affected by enrichment of these species. There are going to me many factors that effect the symptomatic response, but I believe the rapid Bifidobacterial expansion in the GIT, likely involving particular strains, is having the most prodigious effect in so far as particular organisms will most aggressively displace the gram-negative pathogens, whose cell walls are so detrimental to your health. There is a lot more to this than LPS, but I'm guessiing that is what is predominantly responsible for your symptoms. While I don't know precisely which gram-negative pathogens are implicated, I think the best evidence points to the proteobacteria phylum, which includes numerous organisms including many SRB bacteria. SRB may have a particular ability to disrupt the sulfur metabolism, very directly, by inhibiting beta oxidation and acetylation, the cysteine metabolism, and perpetuating the intestinal permeability.

I guess, as I ramble along, that I wanted to say that you may find symptoms more tolerable without any of the more potent bactericidal strains, like Bifidum, especially when it is inoculated. Pairing this strain with RS has, from my personal experience, unparalleled ability to displace bacteria in the lower bowel, and the lower bowel is what really needs to be modified. My fermented LAB foods are infinitely more tolerable, I believe, because they simply do not have the same capacity to influence bacterial displacement in the colon. LAB don't predominate there, Bifidobacterial and Clostridial strains do. I think strains with less bactericidal activity are probably preferred, although there will be people who may need to "seed" the bowel with these potent strains, which are generally among the most intolerant to oxygen and I would speculate absent or under-represented in this population.

I'm getting a different effect with RS alone and it is certainly more tolerable. Actually, the RS + B. Bifidum combination essentially feels like an amplification of this species effects, with a bit more energy conveyed. This is going to be way too powerful for many, and I believe the more prudent approach may be to avoid magnifying the effect of a these bactericidal strains altogether. It may be more reasonable to amplify a more diverse array of bifidobacteria, or stick to organisms that will never have the same capabilities, in terms of having bactericidal effects. The reason I had so much improvement with this strain is because it is such an effective modifier in the colon; the reason I simultaneously experienced so many adverse inflammatory symptoms is because I had considerable intestinal permeability. Intestinal permeability necessarily means that the endotoxins will find their way outside the bowel to the lymphatics, liver and spleen where they precipitate, an exponentially greater immune response. Unfortunately, with RS, it looks like the adverse effects of immunomodulation cannot be avoided, you cannot have bifidobacterial strain expansion and commensal clostridial expansion without some negative effects; however, leaving out the Bifidum accelerant seems to be indicated, at least in those who have some Bifidobacterial species diversity in place.

I am especially interested in seeing a larger sample size. I do not expect many "non-responders," although I think one would have to imagine poor compliance in some of the sicker patients insofar as the resultant symptoms will be misunderstood or simply not tolerated. It is encouraging to see that bentonite is having some effect in symptom mitigation; it has been proven to bind with endotoxins in the bowel, although it presumably has other effects that may be called upon via enhanced detoxification.

I wanted to add that the most notable improvement I have experienced thus far relates to improvement in my fatigue, increased body temperature, and significantly reduced reaction to high-protein and nitrogen-containing foods. After the first couple of weeks, I haven't experienced any of the more pronounced fatigue that I have come to know over the years. Also, my head is clearer, although there have been alternating moments where I am mobilizing something. I am clearly displacing lots of SRB, as evidenced by the wonderful sulfur odor. I would estimate that the improvement in three or four weeks parallels what I was able to achieve in about 5-6 months with a combination of anaerobically fermented foods. In total, I have probably only taken about 15 teaspoons.

I am presently taking about 1/2 tsp every 3 days or so, which allows for a tolerable immune response. Perhaps a significantly smaller amount taken each day is more sensible. I have been surprised by the effects that this has had on a couple of my children, in terms of its potency, especially with the presentation of some lymph node pain in the legs and feet. Also, my eldest, who has mild ME/CFS, has struggled to fall asleep, even after 5 days. I would say that RS has had an effect similar to what I expected: one where the response builds and is sustained, but I am getting fewer symptoms and more bacterial displacement; I believe this is clearly a feature of enhanced intestinal integrity resulting from mircobiota enrichment. The immune response did get away from me a bit, when I tried to take tsp doses consecutively. Fortunately, the lymphatic symptoms, cytokines, and CNS effects are so familiar to me, that I have learned when to pull back. There can be a bit of a bipolar effect, with the RS energizing effects followed by the the depressive symptoms of the endotoxins, which interfere with the metabolism of tryptophan.

I'm optimistic and encourage those to consider that the PS's primary effect appears to be in the selective enrichment of butyrate producing species (and by extension some Bifidobacterial species) while simultaneously reducing populations of proteobacteria. We need more data in ME/CFS, but the significance of this phylum of bacteria is that it is consistently over-represented in the handful of ME/CFS studies and a majority of studies I have seen looking at severely autistic children. This phylum is not-coincidentally dominated by SRB. I also see an over-representation of certain species that have more specific metabolic roles, in effect cleaning up the mess that is ME/CFS pathophysiology. Many of these same studies also demonstrate a conspicuous under-representation of butyrate-producing species, and the implications of this are highly consequential in maintaining illness. I need to look at these more closely, and the lack of subspecies differentiation is limiting, but this is what I am picking up. If one has CFS, I am pretty sure they will benefit from Butryate-producing clostridal species; in fact I am going to be surprised if some highly-visible ME/CFS clinicians are not advocating use of this within the next year.
 
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Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
There certainly are a lot of people who seem to benefit from the goitrogenic foods, mainly the greens, and I suppose it could be their beneficial action that is causing my reaction to them, but I just thought of one goitrogen that most likely wouldn't be considered medicinal but causes the same reaction....peanuts. My logic may be off, let me know if it is.

Either way, you're right that RS and it's effect on butyrate synthesis is a better choice.

Last night 1/2 hour after taking it, my feet and hands got cold, but I slept much more soundly than usual. I'm wondering if the cold hands and feet are simply from the blood getting a little dirtier and thicker and circulation in the extremities decreasing. Another thing that happened was that I started breathing much more deeply. Usually my breathing is very shallow, almost unnoticeable. I didn't get a morning headache, so my reaction to it isn't so unbearable. I did get the sticking pain under the breastbone that someone else had mentioned. I wouldn't be surprised if I do have an infection in the upper GI tract. The idea that the possibility of RS and/or the right probiotic can balance or reactivate the immune system and so many different areas of concern can be dealt with makes me really hopeful.

Thanks again for your insight.

Sympathetic activation for sure, but I wonder if hydrogen sulfide may play a part in these symptoms involving the cold hands and feet; I am going through something similar. and the increased acetate production may be mediating the breathing as it sounds like you increased CO2 concentrations. That is a sign of increased energy metabolism. At my worst my breathing became very shallow and 6 breaths per minute.
 
Messages
40
@Vegas very, very informative post! I had a lot of 'a ha'-moments reading it ;-)

Some background on my last few weeks:

I started supplementing 5gr of GOS (Bimuno) for about a week. I got a lot of sulphuric gas and constipation as a result. I initially thought this was a setback, and quit after about a week of using it. But after reading your post it might've been rapid Bifidobacterial expansion (which GOS has been known to stimulate) causing die-off of SRB. Am I correct in saying that I mistook the sulphuric gas as the fermentation of GOS by pathogenic bacteria, when it really was die-off of pathogenic proteobacteria?

I since have stopped GOS and dialed back the other fibers. I also introduced magnesium (both transdermally with magnesium oil as well as mag citrate). Along with the PHD I daily take ±10gr RS, 5gr Psyllium Husk, occasionally some l-glutamine and a sh*tload of kefir (around 0,7l a day). I actually much better now, but I know I still have ways to go.

If the Bimuno was indeed having a positive effect, I'm going to start to introduce it again, starting with 1gr a day.
 

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
@Vegas very, very informative post! I had a lot of 'a ha'-moments reading it ;-)

Some background on my last few weeks:

I started supplementing 5gr of GOS (Bimuno) for about a week. I got a lot of sulphuric gas and constipation as a result. I initially thought this was a setback, and quit after about a week of using it. But after reading your post it might've been rapid Bifidobacterial expansion (which GOS has been known to stimulate) causing die-off of SRB. Am I correct in saying that I mistook the sulphuric gas as the fermentation of GOS by pathogenic bacteria, when it really was die-off of pathogenic proteobacteria?

I since have stopped GOS and dialed back the other fibers. I also introduced magnesium (both transdermally with magnesium oil as well as mag citrate). Along with the PHD I daily take ±10gr RS, 5gr Psyllium Husk, occasionally some l-glutamine and a sh*tload of kefir (around 0,7l a day). I actually much better now, but I know I still have ways to go.

If the Bimuno was indeed having a positive effect, I'm going to start to introduce it again, starting with 1gr a day.

What other fibers are you taking?

I heard rice is beneficial for re correcting the dysbiosis in this way, is this true?
 

jstefl

Senior Member
Messages
250
Location
Brookfield, Wisconsin
I started on the Bob's Red Mill potato starch in late December. I haven't wanted to comment until I had some feelings about where this is going. I have been through many trials of supplements where the initial results seemed great, and then things tapered off,or even worsened later, so I am trying to be patient.

I started very slowly with about a 1/2 teaspoon per day, and very slowly increased the intake. I have been taking it with a variety of probiotics, including Prescript Assist, Bio Gaia Protectis, and Simply Right 4X Probiotic. I find that each type has a positive affect for a week or so, and then things turn negative. Changing the probiotic every few days seems to work for me.

My initial response to the PS was lots of gas. It was very foul smelling, and I did my best to stay away from others. It was pretty uncontrollable. There were a few embarrassing moments, such as the time that I was in a store with my grandson, and leaked a bit of gas. He smelled it immediately, and announced" Grandpa, I smell poop", loudly enough for others to hear. I really wouldn't want to take this if I were in a work environment.

Now that two and a half months have passed, the gas is much less of a problem. It hasn't completely stopped, but the smell isn't as awful, and it is more controllable.

I have noticed the vivid dreams that others have talked about. They seem very real, and I find it difficult to know if I am awake or sleeping at times. Sometimes. I wake up and look at the clock, and fall back asleep and continue the dream. When I wake up again, several hours may have passed, even though the dreams were so realistic, it seemed like minutes.

I suffered through a cold for five weeks in late January, and all of February, so the PS was the least of my worries. That was a strange experience, as I went 21 years without having a cold. I have been attempting to shift my immune system back to the TH1 mode, and it seems to be working, as I have been having colds on a regular basis the last two years.

In the last week or so, I have been feeling very tired. Not the tired but wired feeling that I have been living with for so many years, but the actual "I want to lay down and sleep" type of tired. Falling asleep seems easier now, but the length of sleep hasn't changed much, and I still feel the need to nap after lunch.

At this point, my energy level isn't much changed, but I am taking fewer painkillers during the day. I still need something for pain when I wake up, but there have been days when I haven't taken any more during the day. This alone would make the PS experience worthwhile, as pain has been one of my biggest problems.

I have modified my diet some, but nothing real drastic. I haven't had any serious food allergies, although in the past few years, dairy has been somewhat of a problem. I have tried to stop all bread, potato's, and sugar containing foods, but I allow myself to cheat on occasion.

I have tried to follow this thread, but the chemistry gets to be confusing, and the endless terms and abbreviations make me tune out at times.

In summary, I will definitely keep taking the PS to see where this goes. The pain relief has been wonderful. This certainly has been the most cost effective treatment that I have tried so far. I have been ill for over 23 years, so I don't expect things to turn around after a few days or weeks. I will post on a regular basis, whenever I feel that I have something to say.

John
 

anne_likes_red

Senior Member
Messages
1,103
same here Anne!! I unleashed a monster too :eek: I wasn't sure if it was a healing crisis or what...it almost felt like the start of ME all over again which was very disconcerting to say the least. However i think it was probably a "healing crisis" of some sort...i had pints of mucus appearing from everywhere, severe violent sneezing, swollen glands and generally feeling absolutely dreadful and it was unrelenting. Was that similar to what you experienced? I'm feeling a bit better now thankfully, i hope you're ok! I'm glad the clay and bentonite helped. :)

Hi Frou, I read back there that you might have had an extreme reaction. Hope you're feeling OK now too.
My RS response seems to be a bit different from yours. I haven't had extra mucous, or gas.....so far. The unrelenting bit sounds similar though. Were you prepared for such a reaction from potato? LOL <-- that's me laughing, or I'd cry.

I did have swollen glands in the neck initially...not so much lately though. I ran a temperature for a week or more and I had an uncharacteristic sore throat on and off. I also experienced a profound need for sleep at odd times - though that might have been due to bad timing of my RS dose. The biggest thing for me is the lymph swelling (vague burning/numb sensation) in the legs...the thighs mainly, but a sensation running right down to my feet! I don't have any pain in my liver or spleen but I have developed very tender spots on both upper arms which feel bruised and warm to the touch. I checked on an acupuncture diagram online and those points (LI 14) relate to the large intestine.

@Vegas - yes despite some challenging symptoms I am seeing this as a meaningful positive! I've noticed a reduction in the deep muscle pain I've experienced since early in my illness.
I might have had a few bifidus strains together in a commercial yogurt once last week, otherwise I've been avoiding supplementing any and will continue to do so. Good to know you find the reaction from RS on it's own more tolerable.
Yes it must must be a response to pathogen displacement. Not knowing which pathogen/s exactly is mildly frustrating but I'll live with that! (My money's on some proteobacteria too. Makes a lot of sense.)

I'm trying to figure out whether over representation by some of those bad boys might have been contributing to my molybdenum deficiency all this time. ...Connecting dots not my strong point at the moment...still bringing the beast to heal.

I'll update again after things have settled and I've given much smaller doses a fair go.
Thanks again to All the people contributing so generously to this thread. :hug:

Anne.
 

maddietod

Senior Member
Messages
2,859
I'm less than 2 weeks into this, but I got quickly up to 4T a day, without any problems. I take 1 each of the 3 recommended probiotics with the starch; the 2 SBOs in the morning with yogurt, and the other one afternoon with kefir.

I moved up to 4T as quickly as possible, hoping for sleep support. I've played with the timing of RS, and it has no effect. My dreams are sometimes sharper, clearer, but that's all.

The gas is, um, interesting. There are some good things about living alone. I'm going to spend today and tomorrow at a friend's house, and I'm going off the starch. So I'll see what effect that has when I get back on it.

My teeth are whiter!

I've tested negative for parasites repeatedly, and also negative for leaky gut.
 

froufox

Senior Member
Messages
440
thats interesting Anne, and no, I would never have thought that potato could create such havoc! lol :D Like you I had the sore throat and swollen glands too .... in my case I do have leaky gut and I presume that partly explains my severe reaction - symptoms eg sneezing, mucus, were exacerbated by eating....my body seemed to react to everything I ingested. I do believe that I have parasites and from previous stool tests (though I'm sure things have changed) no bifido and high strep (normal levels of proteobacteria) so I guess its not surprising that I had such a strong reaction.

As with others, it does feel like it is having a positive effect too...I virtually never get colds, like jstefl, and when I did have the intense cold/flu symtoms, my ME symptoms clearly abated somewhat (eg brain fog, fatigue), suggesting perhaps an upregulation of TH1. This has happened to me before. Just to add I also had the sulphur smelling gas (actually that continues since my last dose over a week ago) and I think that I have been sleeping slightly better too.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
@Vegas, Remember saying, " What else does your GIT want, threonic acid."

I've been wondering where one gets that.

And I do understand what you mean about HPU/KPU being a diagnostic finding, or in other words a symptom of a condition, not a specific disease. Is the porphyrin buildup caused by lack of specific enzymes in the path to building something else? I don't know what I don't know, if you know what I mean. But do you think the excess porphyrins accomplish something besides pain to draw attention to a problem? I don't know how porphyrins could cause pain, and I don't even know if it's actually the buildup of porphyrins that is causing the pain. I do know that glucose slowing by surely relieves the pain.

This discussion was last week so I'll paste the paragraph about this below.

"Many "specialists" in certain disease states or conditions will claim that this is a feature of this particular condition or disease, but this is illogical. HPU/KPU or whatever you want to call it is associated with many inflammatory conditions, it cannot specifically point to one particular condition or disease. It is not a disease but a diagnostic finding. I have seen it claimed that the porphyrin has no purpose, but that is not likely. There is significance to its complexes with other molecules. It carries out a role, I will have to expound on this later."
 
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Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
I started on the Bob's Red Mill potato starch in late December. I haven't wanted to comment until I had some feelings about where this is going. I have been through many trials of supplements where the initial results seemed great, and then things tapered off,or even worsened later, so I am trying to be patient.

I started very slowly with about a 1/2 teaspoon per day, and very slowly increased the intake. I have been taking it with a variety of probiotics, including Prescript Assist, Bio Gaia Protectis, and Simply Right 4X Probiotic. I find that each type has a positive affect for a week or so, and then things turn negative. Changing the probiotic every few days seems to work for me.

My initial response to the PS was lots of gas. It was very foul smelling, and I did my best to stay away from others. It was pretty uncontrollable. There were a few embarrassing moments, such as the time that I was in a store with my grandson, and leaked a bit of gas. He smelled it immediately, and announced" Grandpa, I smell poop", loudly enough for others to hear. I really wouldn't want to take this if I were in a work environment.

Now that two and a half months have passed, the gas is much less of a problem. It hasn't completely stopped, but the smell isn't as awful, and it is more controllable.

I have noticed the vivid dreams that others have talked about. They seem very real, and I find it difficult to know if I am awake or sleeping at times. Sometimes. I wake up and look at the clock, and fall back asleep and continue the dream. When I wake up again, several hours may have passed, even though the dreams were so realistic, it seemed like minutes.

I suffered through a cold for five weeks in late January, and all of February, so the PS was the least of my worries. That was a strange experience, as I went 21 years without having a cold. I have been attempting to shift my immune system back to the TH1 mode, and it seems to be working, as I have been having colds on a regular basis the last two years.

In the last week or so, I have been feeling very tired. Not the tired but wired feeling that I have been living with for so many years, but the actual "I want to lay down and sleep" type of tired. Falling asleep seems easier now, but the length of sleep hasn't changed much, and I still feel the need to nap after lunch.

At this point, my energy level isn't much changed, but I am taking fewer painkillers during the day. I still need something for pain when I wake up, but there have been days when I haven't taken any more during the day. This alone would make the PS experience worthwhile, as pain has been one of my biggest problems.

I have modified my diet some, but nothing real drastic. I haven't had any serious food allergies, although in the past few years, dairy has been somewhat of a problem. I have tried to stop all bread, potato's, and sugar containing foods, but I allow myself to cheat on occasion.

I have tried to follow this thread, but the chemistry gets to be confusing, and the endless terms and abbreviations make me tune out at times.

In summary, I will definitely keep taking the PS to see where this goes. The pain relief has been wonderful. This certainly has been the most cost effective treatment that I have tried so far. I have been ill for over 23 years, so I don't expect things to turn around after a few days or weeks. I will post on a regular basis, whenever I feel that I have something to say.

John

That's good news, John. What type of pain do you have? It's interesting to see how many different issues the potato starch can help with.
 

Asklipia

Senior Member
Messages
999
Now taking one teaspoon PS every three days or so. In water, no yogurt anymore.
Lymphatic swelling in the neck, big cramps in the legs and toes. Farting with no smell, strange. A couple of days, waking up with a lot of mucus in the nose.
All this comes and goes.

On the positive side, more K2 is being produced, the teeth are smoother and the skin is softer, I noticed this because I grazed myself twice when it would not have happened normally. This was a sign I had when I started K2 supplementation years ago.

The eyes are wetter too. When I take my contacts off in the evening, they glide off very easily, as though my eyes were swimming in beneficial tears.

Something lymphatic is happening in the head. I have a bitter taste in my mouth several times a day. The teeth seem looser, the gums tighter. This has been going on since the beginning and now the teeth are firm in tighter gums.

A very small amount of goo is coming out of my ears.

(For yogis only : My husband had a sudden taste of amrit. This had happened to me before in prayer, he had it waiting for a train. I had described to him the taste : kind of cocoa butter-like. When you have not been eating any cocoa butter or chocolate for ages.)

Something very strange is happening with our appetite : we are not hungry at all!!! We normally eat from waking up time until at the latest 4 pm and do not have cravings any more. But now we cannot eat half of what is on our plate. We feel full all the time. It seems that something we were looking for in our food must be made out of a small teaspoon of PS???????
We are more thirsty though drinking more water I find.

Urination freer and more copious.
Bowel movements now three times a day, not once as before. There was no difficulty before and none now, just the amount is bigger. With definitely less food going in at the other end. Which tends to prove fecal matter is really something only vaguely related to the amount of food ingested!!!!

More hormones are being produced : I feel my emotions much much more!!!!!! Since a big downside of my ME/CFS was a lack of emotions, I suppose this is a very important sign.

Also another strange sign : every time I do things which are positive for my health, many new people appear in my life. Yesterday I was invited by a friend to a party. It turned out this was a huge ladies only party, where I met many interesting people who I am sure are going to become part of my life.
Coming out of autism?

It is quite disturbing to realize and to be faced with the inescapable fact that what I thought was myself is just the expression of some gut flora. Who am I?
Some gut flora was dictating to me that I live in isolation?
Some other bacteria decide that I can have friends?

I mean, am I possessed? And what about the others? Are they possessed too, and those faces just a cover for a mass of more or less friendly bacteria?
This is turning out into some kind of fast and radical Tantric initiation!!!!! No need to go and meditate in graveyards. Now there is not a day when this thought is not present. I have a particularly nasty neighbour. I now wonder what is living in her gut. Is she really in control of what she does? I always suspected not, but I thought she must have been taking lots of drugs. Maybe she is, but what about her gut flora????????
:alien::alien::alien::alien::alien::alien::alien:

Good luck to all,
Asklipia
 
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froufox

Senior Member
Messages
440
Asklipia, very interesting! :) I can relate to the lack of emotions, inability to socialise (not just due to lack of energy)... I guess it just shows the power of bacteria and how they play a huge part in dictating/shaping our behaviour/how we feel and think! Which has definitely been my experience over the yrs too (gut better = brain/emotions etc better) and research has found.

I guess since the RS will be increasing some of the beneficial bacteria, this will increase the synthesis of dopamine etc leading to more reward seeking behaviour. I think ive had moments of this too though not as dramatic as you.
 
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Asklipia

Senior Member
Messages
999
In summary, I will definitely keep taking the PS to see where this goes. The pain relief has been wonderful. This certainly has been the most cost effective treatment that I have tried so far. I have been ill for over 23 years, so I don't expect things to turn around after a few days or weeks. I will post on a regular basis, whenever I feel that I have something to say.
John
Thank you so much John for bringing your experience. We all need a bit of hope! :) Your observations are very useful and your contribution very valuable.
The idea of rotating the probiotics is very interesting, as well as the names of the ones you used.
It is good to know how you have been proceeding, we are all beginners with Resistant Starch! Since you started in late December this gives us an idea of what might be in store for us late comers. Fantastic to hear that something is working for you!
I wish you a very nice recovery. This can be a wonderful time if you feel you are indeed doing something right.
Please post again!
:hug:
Asklipia
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
@Vegas, Remember saying, " What else does your GIT want, threonic acid."

I've been wondering where one gets that.

And I do understand what you mean about HPU/KPU being a diagnostic finding, or in other words a symptom of a condition, not a specific disease. Is the porphyrin buildup caused by lack of specific enzymes in the path to building something else? I don't know what I don't know, if you know what I mean. But do you think the excess porphyrins accomplish something besides pain to draw attention to a problem? I don't know how porphyrins could cause pain, and I don't even know if it's actually the buildup of porphyrins that is causing the pain. I do know that glucose slowing by surely relieves the pain.

This discussion was last week so I'll paste the paragraph about this below.

"Many "specialists" in certain disease states or conditions will claim that this is a feature of this particular condition or disease, but this is illogical. HPU/KPU or whatever you want to call it is associated with many inflammatory conditions, it cannot specifically point to one particular condition or disease. It is not a disease but a diagnostic finding. I have seen it claimed that the porphyrin has no purpose, but that is not likely. There is significance to its complexes with other molecules. It carries out a role, I will have to expound on this later."

Threonic acid? This is your own biosynthesized butyrate, you likely have diminshed capacity to synthesize this because of inhibited hydrolysis and you will be well-served to put your butyrate-synthesizing bacterial friends at work for you instead of trying to add amino acids or cofactors to bolster endogenous synthesis. In fact, your intrinsic capacity is pretty limited. Those critters do really like acetic acid, did you ever feed them ACV?

Anyway, threoninic acid comes down the aspartate pathway, but if you find Aspartame (Nutrasweet) disagreeable, this is a hint for you that you don't want this amino acid. Acutally the precusor to Aspartate is Oxaloacetate, which has to be deaminated. I supposed you could take a lot of these things, but I think your metabolism is going to try to keep some of these compounds from being more completely metabolized, in order to save you from death, which is pretty important, I think. This is an icky part of the metabolism where B6 or PLP makes matters worse. Aspartate transaminase is the enzyme that precipitates the interconversion of not only aspartate and a-ketoglutarate, but also oxaloacetate and glutamate. Methionine synthesis is here as well, and from this the significance of the CBS issue has been, unfortunately, exaggerated. Dr. Yasko discovered an important part of the metabolism as being relevant to ME/CFS and autism, it's just that genetics had less to do with this than what was in our guts. Yes, I am opinionated.

Adreno says he uses MgThreonate, so I'm guessing he gets benefits from this. Adreno, what benefits has this provided, and were there any adverse consequences? If you want to synthesize this, you are going to need to enhance all those "hydro" reactions, which just means keep fixing the gut. . threonine--C4H9NO3 vs. C4H8O5--threonic acid. Notice the loss of a hydrogen molecule with a couple of oxygens coming over with it. The constituent parts of the amino acids are held together with peptides, which are a kind of amide. That peptide bond or that amide bond is broken via hydrolysis, which involves the additon of a water molecue. This takes a whole bunch of ATP, and the breaking of these bonds has significant consequences. An amide is converted to a carboxylic acid AND an amine or ammonia. This is where those counter-regulatory measures have to get really busy and control the synthesis of some of these compounds, especially if you have a hole in your gut.

The porphyrins are mediating a response; this is just like any biomolecule. They do have an affinity for LPS, so their abundance may reflect an adaptive one involving mitigation or enhancement of an immune/inflammatory response. This is not necessarily an LPS thing, it's likely a more general response to an antigen, an immune-mediated response that is nonspecific for endotoxins. Like porphyrins, histamine can also bind to LPS, and I believe this has been shown to afford the host benefits. Immunomodulation sounds tricky. I just try to think about there needing to be a balance of the immune response and the suppression of the response and to carry this out you need different molecules to execute such a complex response. I think we humans tend to polarize things too much.


Edit: I really need to read some of these things before posting.
 
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Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
Happy that you have no major problems with the PS!
The white teeth might be a result of extra K2 being created in the gut!

I was wondering about all this talk about teeth, but I think mine may have changed a bit as well. Would the texture feel smoother? Are you suggesting that there have been changes to the enamel, in a matter of weeks? I'm aware of some of the means by which this could take place, but I hadn't really thought about this that much. Actually, when you study the genus Bifidobacteria, which prosper in a calcium medium, and have can a dramatic effect on bone morphology even independent of K synthesis, I guess I see where you are coming from with the teeth. I've long thought that this held the key or at least was highly relevant for the problems seen, particularly with women, involving bone demineralization. There also seems to be a significant tie-in with the inorganic mineral manganese, doesn't this have a K connection with prothrombin? Perhaps what you are also seeing is some of the load taken off your own hydroxylase enzymes.
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
Asklipia, very interesting! :) I can relate to the lack of emotions, inability to socialise (not just due to lack of energy)... I guess it just shows the power of bacteria and how they play a huge part in dictating/shaping our behaviour/how we feel and think! Which has definitely been my experience over the yrs too (gut better = brain/emotions etc better) and research has found.

I guess since the RS will be increasing some of the beneficial bacteria, this will increase the synthesis of dopamine etc leading to more reward seeking behaviour. I think ive had moments of this too though not as dramatic as you.

So, if you don't mind me asking, did you find yourself as a "responder" good or bad to folinic acid or methyltetrahydrofolate and did you have any particular favorable or adverse reactions to other B vitamins.?
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
I was wondering about all this talk about teeth, but I think mine may have changed a bit as well. Would the texture feel smoother? Are you suggesting that there have been changes to the enamel, in a matter of weeks? I'm aware of some of the means by which this could take place, but I hadn't really thought about this that much. Actually, when you study the genus Bifidobacteria, which prosper in a calcium medium, and have can a dramatic effect on bone morphology even independent of K synthesis, I guess I see where you are coming from with the teeth. I've long thought that this held the key or at least was highly relevant for the problems seen, particularly with women, involving bone demineralization. There also seems to be a significant tie-in with the inorganic mineral manganese, doesn't this have a K connection with prothrombin? Perhaps what you are also seeing is some of the load taken off your own hydroxylase enzymes.

My teeth and bones had become weak around 2007-10 when I had undiagnosed hyponatraemia, and I reasoned that I was losing bone minerals as well as sodium, so I started supplementing them. My teeth were painful, I had lost several fillings and a chunk of tooth, and suffered my only-ever fracture (at the age of about 55) from a minor fall, and my bones were hurting. After I started supplementing, my dental problems reduced significantly (no more losses and very little further pain) and I have had very little trouble since, and almost no bone pain.