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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    I think most of this is, at the root, is an energy thing, including MK4 and Vitamin D biosynthesis versus a direct consequence of the bacterial organisms, but if Trevor Marshal has evidence of this, o.k. Of course I don't know exactly what is meant by "infected," I guess I just see this to be more likely an indirect consequence involving many other factors. In the bacterial world, some organisms, including some Bifidobacterial and Bacillus species biosynthesize K, and some use it for their growth. I'm not sure how important a microbial source may be to humans, but given that this synthesizing capability should be acquired at birth via innoculation Bifidobacterial organisms from the mother, it may be of consequence.

    Hydrolysis of MK4 like Vitamin D would inhibited by free radicals. Really, I think we need to look at this situation more molecularly, so to speak. What is necessary for many of these hydrolase enzymes to function is Biopterin, aka BH4, but it is not really a biopterin problem, you have to go down further, looking at the nucleotides that make up DNA, purines and pyrimidine, which include guanosine and adenosine among others. This is part of the one carbon cycle, which cannot function without tetrahydrofolate, so there is a folate connection for you. Actually, by fake folates, I'm assuming she is referring to folic acid. There are a number of problems here that relates to what I was describing before, but I will spare you the details.

    Purines are themselves aromatic compounds that are built around a nitrogen molecule. It so happens that there are some compounds that have a special affinity for LPS, and this includes nitrogenous heterocyclic compounds, amines including histamine and tetrahydropyrrole, as in HPU, KPU, Pyroluria. This is a well documented abnormality in ME/CFS, which may relate to the biological mess I have been describing. Seems that were LPS goes, these things follow.

    Now this brings me to the catabolism of substances that seems to be relevant. From basic to more acid: amides are converted to more alkaloid carboxylic acid->amines->ammonia. Recall what I said about what can happen in the colon:

    "The second, method whereby the Bifidum will decrease plasma ammonia is through it's ability to alter pH. Lower pH reduces the production of ammonia by intestinal organisms. What I think is more consequential though is that a lower, and more acidic pH will enhance hydrolysis. In the lower pH of the large intestine ammonia (NH3) can more readily bond with Hydrogen, creating ammonium (NH4). The importance of this reaction is that ammonium cannot pass through the bowel wall into the blood. Reducing pH in the colon thus allows for ammonia to be converted to a less toxic form, and one that does not diffuse into the blood."

    You really need that hydrogen bonding and conversion to NH4 (Nitrogen + 4 Hydrogen Molecules). NH3 (ammonia) is, through the process of hydrolysis, combined with a water molecule to form NH4 and one of those OH groups again; the hydrogen molecule from H2O hops onto the ammonia and renders it much less toxic. You don't want that extra hydrogen molecule hanging around because your mitochondria are not going to like that nor is your cell lining, but lots of bad bacterial don't mind, in fact they prefer it.

    So I started off talking about K & D, but maybe some of the food sensitivities are starting to make sense. Amines which includes purine rich plant alkaloids, phenols, which include salicylates, they cannot be efficiently metabolized if there is a hydrogen bottleneck. It's a hydroxyl radical problem, at least that's what it looks like to me, but I'm sure as heck not a chemist, microbiologist, immunologist, etc. We do know that bifidobacterial organisms enhance the metabolism of these substances, and I doubt this is coincidence even though we should have he inherent capacity to take care of this without the bacterial contribution. Of course you can see some real problems when you lose commensal clostridial species to produce butyrate and maintain the intestinal lining yet these are dependent upon the Bifidus species for acetate and for keeping the other pathogens in check. The high colonic pH maintains the problem of intestinal permeability, impairs the metabolism of amines, sustains the dysbiosis and simultaneously crushes the energy metabolism and the immune response.
    Sidereal, dannybex, Gestalt and 2 others like this.
  2. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Mg Glycinate is fine. Bet some who take MgThreonate will not like this too much.

    Porphyria what are the chances? :) Sounds a lot like what I just wrote. see below.

    CYP affects VitD, I made a rhyme.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
    Violeta likes this.
  3. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Do you happen to know how a lack of vasopressin fits into this? I looked up 21-hydroxylase, and it talks about aldosterone, which I thought was the antagonist to vasopressin. But vasopressin deficiency seems to fit my symptoms. (One more reason I started taking reishi.) The symptoms are constant thirst and urination with no sugar in the urine and no high blood sugar levels, along with adrenal insufficiency and most of the time dilated veins in my hands, which I can't think of the correct word to describe that right now, maybe vascular something or other. I don't know about salt wasting, but I do crave salt, and for many years actually ran on salt.

    Thanks, and please, no rush on replying.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
  4. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    What are the chances of having porphyria? slim
    What are the chances you just wrote about something that concerns porphyria? almost nil
    You have heard of porphyria, wow.

    The only part that I can recognize as being connected to porphyria is this:
    "Purines are themselves aromatic compounds that are built around a nitrogen molecule. It so happens that there are some compounds that have a special affinity for LPS, and this includes nitrogenous heterocyclic compounds, amines including histamine and tetrahydropyrrole, as in HPU, KPU, Pyroluria. This is a well documented abnormality in ME/CFS, which may relate to the biological mess I have been describing. Seems that were LPS goes, these things follow."

    Allopathic medicine seems to keep the explanation behind porphyria hidden. They give you little rules to follow, but few clues. I have read, though, that it can be brought on by either heavy metal toxicity or pathogen. When you say that where LPS goes, these things follow, what do you mean? I have seen a community of people with c. pneumonia that have what they call secondary porphyria.

    And is there more in that message that pertains to porphyria? I keep thinking there has to be a way out of it. I keep thinking I'm getting better and eat just say a vegetable with sulfurophane and I get sick all over again.

    Most people think it's really strange that glucose and coca cola, believe it or not, (phosphorus?) made with sugar have helped me get a lot of relief, but I don't actually know if they helped me get better or just relieved symptoms. That's a tough thing to ask for an opinion on, but it's a lonely problem, so any ideas would be greatly appreciated.

    I am back to feeling somewhat normal today, so I'm trying some bifidobacteria again; we'll see how it goes this time.

    Edit in: I just found this explanation, and I see that the 21-hydroxylase deficiency can be related to porphyria. I had noticed when reading at a porphyria forum, and have experienced myself, that stress can bring on symptoms just as clearly as trigger foods or medicines.

    Although porphyria usually causes excessive need for potassium, which I can't make fit in the puzzle.

    Mutations in the CYP21A2 gene cause 21-hydroxylase deficiency. The CYP21A2 gene provides instructions for making an enzyme called 21-hydroxylase. This enzyme is found in the adrenal glands, where it plays a role in producing hormones called cortisol and aldosterone. Cortisol has numerous functions, such as maintaining blood sugar levels, protecting the body from stress, and suppressing inflammation. Aldosterone is sometimes called the salt-retaining hormone because it regulates the amount of salt retained by the kidneys. The retention of salt affects fluid levels in the body and blood pressure.



    Oh sheesh, I think you nailed it. Congenital, does that mean there's nothing one can do about it?



    .
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
  5. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    I decided to try Richard Nikoley's triple-threat probiotic regimen, to top off my zoo cages, using the following probiotics:

    Prescript Assist: Arthrobacter agilis, Arthrobacter citreus, Arthrobacter globiformis, Arthrobacter luteus, Arthrobacter simplex, Acinetobacter calcoaceticus, Azotobacter chroococcum, Azotobacter paspali, Azospirillum brasiliense, Azospirillum lipoferum, Bacillus brevis, Bacillus marcerans, Bacillus pumilus, Bacillus polymyxa, Bacillus subtilis, Bacteroides lipolyticum, Bacteriodes succinogenes, Brevibacterium lipolyticum, Brevibacterium stationis, Kurthia zopfii, Myrothecium verrucaria, Pseudomonas calcis, Pseudomonas dentrificans, Pseudomonas fluorescens, Pseudomonas glathei, Phanerochaete chrysosporium, Streptomyces fradiae, Streptomyces cellulosae, Streptomyces griseoflavus.

    AOR Probiotic 3: Streptococcus faecalis T-110, Clostridium butyricum TO-A, Bacillus mesentericus TO-A

    Garden of Life Primal Defense Ultra: SACCHAROMYCES BOULARDII, LACTOBACILLUS PLANTARUM, BACILLUS SUBTILIS. Lactobacillus Paracasei, Bifidobacterium Longum, Bifidobacterium Bifidum, BIFIDOBACTERIUM BREVE, Bifidobacterium Lactis, Lactobacillus Acidophilus, LACTOBACILLUS CASEI, Lactobacillus Rhamnosus, Lactobacillus Salivarius, LACTOBACILLUS BREVIS

    The protocol is to take one of each pill in the morning and one of each in the evening, followed by RS and/or food an hour after each dose. I take 4 Tbsp of RS/day

    Both AOR and PDUltra suggest up to three pills/day, so one is just getting 2/3rds of a full dose of those two probiotics on this protocol.

    I don't have ME/CFS and am healthy, no immune issues or anything that should make me need to be extra cautious with probiotics.

    I have to say, my brain felt amazing — very zen-like — after each RS dose. Very, very powerful. I loved the way it made me feel.

    Apologies for the TMI, but, after the second day, I noticed two very short, thin, white threads and one thicker white thread on one of my stools. They didn't strike me as worms, and seemed more like threads of mucus. And I haven't seen anything like it since then. But, by the 3rd day — while still feeling terrific — I noticed that I felt a slight twinge coming from the area about an inch below my breast bone. And that area felt tense instead of the usual softness one would expect. By day four, it was a very mild warm pain, but it hurt to touch that tense muscle spot. It almost felt stress-like — and if I practiced breathing exercises, the area would get softer and the sensation would lessen. Very odd.

    So, I backed off and stopped the probiotics and the RS for two days, which is never a bad idea once in awhile. The dull sensation is gone now and that spot feels less tense. My stools are fine. I'm tempted to take these probiotics again, working up slowly from lower doses, since I believe I was missing some of these species. However, I'm not sure what the pain was indicative of. I've never heard of a herx reaction that made you feel great everywhere except for a localized area of the gut. Has anyone else?

    From what I can tell, even high doses of probiotics should be relatively safe for a "healthy" person with no immune issues. But, I can't help but wonder if it really was some kind of pathogen. I don't think probiotics are supposed to do that. Perhaps I went too quickly all at once. But, I've looked up the symptoms of worms, and I don't have any of them — I feel perfectly healthy. Any ideas?
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2014
  6. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    I think that you went too quickly all at once, apart from symptoms, just for the following reasons.
    - The manufacturers of those probiotics emphasize that you have to start slow.
    - They provide what they think is a balanced product. Maybe not meant to be used with two other probiotic mixes on the same day.
    - These mixes are very heavily dosed, not accounting for the intake of RS that may boost their effect.

    You say that you are healthy. Enjoy this!:):balloons::)
    Experiments are very interesting, and I am the first one to be fascinated by what is happening in the body.
    However, they are more fruitful if we change things bit by bit to really pinpoint what is going on.
    Please take good care of yourself and don't rock the boat too hard.

    Yes, I know these experiments affect the brain tremendously. It is not just a matter of feeling good though. Time to take advantage of this to understand that we are not what we think we are and ponder all the implications. It would be a pity to miss on this.

    Lots of good wishes,
    Take it easy!:hug:
    Asklipia
  7. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    I take Mg Threonate, haven't noticed any bad effects from it. Seems quite effective at calming down excitotoxicity.
  8. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    @Radio

    Like Asklipia says, it would probably be good if you could add the probiotics one at a time, so you can identify the offender.
    Ripley likes this.
  9. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    More observations on RS:
    It seems I get effects from very small amounts of Potato Starch that I never had on big amounts of cold boiled potatoes.

    - Does this mean that the effect is dependent on RS2 (Potato Starch) and not on RS3 (cooled boiled potatoes)?
    - Or it is a special effect of RS taken in isolation (I suppose that in my boiled potatoes there is RS3 + available starch).

    As to Potato Starch inducing more Vit B6, here is some interesting information on B6, which could explain some of the effects :
    Vitamin B6, The Under-Appreciated Vitamin
    on the Weston Price website.
  10. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    I think I am going to space it as you do. Something very important is going on and I do not want to rush it and miss the details.
    anne_likes_red and froufox like this.
  11. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    I'm back in!

    I stopped the probiotics for three days so far and this morning took one half tsp. RS. The night time increase of adrenaline reduced considerably when I stopped the probiotics (Mutaflor and 4 strains of B. bifido) but was still slightly there this morning. It had not stopped me sleeping though, that is going back off. I have also started melatonin 0.25 mg. desperate for better sleep. So we shall see how things go during the night.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
    Violeta and Asklipia like this.
  12. Asklipia

    Asklipia Senior Member

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    You can be hooked on this.
    This is the oxytocin, the hormone of desire.
    See here
    Microbial symbionts accelerate wound healing via the neuropeptide hormone oxytocin.
    "Further, we find that Lactobacillus reuteri enhances wound-healing properties through up-regulation of the neuropeptide hormone oxytocin, a factor integral in social bonding and reproduction, by a vagus nerve-mediated pathway."
    Since Lactobacillus reuteri was not in your withches' brew, we must conclude that you had it inside and the RS fed it! Or that another one of your probiotics had the same effect!
  13. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    Are there other people like @Ripley that had threadworms in their stools? I used to have when I was very little as a child and I remember parents gave me a medicine that stopped them. But it is very interesting that we both have or had that in the past.

    @Ripley are there any other people having threadworms on the other forum where you picked up RS?
    froufox likes this.
  14. South

    South Senior Member

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    @Violeta - I remember reading about phosphorus having something to do with energy in the body. Saw you mention phosphorus, just thought I'd paste a link about it: (please note, the author of this linked site has political/religious opinions elsewhere on his site in an odd manner; I only use his site for theories about minerals to then look up on other sites).

    http://drlwilson.com/articles/PHOSPHORUS.htm
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  15. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    What you describe are features of diabetes insispitus. I had some of these symptoms, but they have long since disappeared. They would sometimes worsen temporarily when subjecting my body to extra physiological stress, which I think fits what RVK is saying. Basically he maintains that it is a symptom mediated by glutathione availability:

    Below is what Rich said, may he rest in peace:

    "The diabetes insipidus in ME/CFS is usually found to be central diabetes insipidus, due to low secretion of antidiuretic hormone (vasopressin). According to my hypothesis, this is due to glutathione depletion in the hypothalamus and pituitary. Some people have been helped by taking desmopressin, which is a synthetic form of vasopressin, available orally or as a nose spray. However, the sodium level in the blood can go off-normal on this treatment, and needs to be monitored."

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...on-test-for-partial-diabetes-insipidus.15362/
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  16. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    O.K. I had to look this one up, Mg Threonate is not a chelate of Threonine, like Mg Glycinate is of Glycine, it is a chelate of Threonic Acid, which is the substrate of L-Threonine. (My apologies for assuming there was a molecular binding to Threonine) Mg Threonate is thus one step removed from threonine, because it holds threonic acid with Mg. By the way, I spoke of threonine being required for maintenance of intestinal integrity, well this is part of the intrinsic or human mechanism for butyrate synthesis. The problem is, humans suck at making butyrate whereas some Clostridial species excel here. L-Threonine has a fancier name: 2R,3S-2,3,4-trihydroxy-butyric acid.
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
  17. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    That is tape worm, and not likely an indication of any serious problem. But, I will say, like other bacterial, protozoal, fungal organisms, or any other infection, these things are going to be more common in someone with GIT dysbiosis. Hypochlorhydria is likely one of the most factors in keeping these out of your system, and HCL production is highly dependent upon energy.

    Disease is heritable in more than one way. You may have simply acquired an inferior set of microbes at birth. or you could have just eaten lots of dirt...without any SBO's, apparently. :)
    froufox likes this.
  18. Rand56

    Rand56 Senior Member

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    Hi Vegas

    Unless there is something I am not understanding, how can getting rid of tyrosine be a good thing since it's a precursor to dopamine synthesis?

    Rand
  19. froufox

    froufox Senior Member

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    zzz0r I passed what looked like a tape or threadworm (it looked like a kind of noodle) a few weeks ago, 2 days after my 2nd dose of RS. I fished it out of the loo with a plastic knife and i could tell by the "feel" of it with the knife, that it was kind of rubbery/veiny in texture. It also had some blood attached. It was definitely nothing I had eaten, nor was it mucus. It was about 3-4 inches long and was attached to a stool. Sorry if TMI for some people!

    Ive had symptoms of parasites/worms over the yrs anyway and have had very dramatic improvements at times following parasite/worm treatment, albeit temporary. I do agree with Vegas that they can be a symptom of poor gut function, low HCL, low immunity etc

    I continued to have one of the worse cold/flus of my life the last 2 days, after my 4th dose of RS, but it seems to be calming down somewhat now, phew and I am definitely feeling better in some ways. It didnt help by going off my diet a bit and eating too many bananas! :redface: Its been quite hellish though so i dont think ill be taking it for a while. I had also been taking CDS recently which probably exacerbated things.
    Asklipia likes this.
  20. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Last edited: Mar 6, 2014
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