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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
What did your symptoms used to consist of?

And what did you do for leaky gut?

Do you mean before improvement? Pretty-well all the typical ME symptoms: PEM, poor perceived temperature control, anxiety, poor sleep, poor tolerance of exertion, chemical sensitivity, gut problems, nasal congestion, visual problems, brain fog, polyuria, poor balance...but very little pain, and hypertension rather than hypo.

My treatment and results are summarised in my profile. I put them there to save having to keep re-posting them! :)
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Vitamin D = it gets much better on that front if you stop destroying it with Anti-K. Sunbathing is the answer.

I wonder whether we can get enough Vitamin D that way if we have polymorphisms in the genes for Vitamin D receptors, as many of us have?
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Or if we live somewhere where there is no sunshine for a substantial part of the year...

In the UK it is apparently impossible to get enough Vit D that way for about 6 months of the year, between the autumn and spring equinoxes approximately. If we can boost our Vit D levels enough during the period when there is adequate solar UVB I think it can pretty-well carry us through the darker period. But I am using a UVB lamp during the darker period in an attempt to keep levels up. I'm not having tests so I don't know if it is working. (Too much hassle and exertion to visit doctors.)

I have 3 VDR polymorphisms that probably reduce my VDR activity, but I think people who are heterozygous for them may be able to get some Vit D that way. They may just need longer exposure.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Which one are you using? They look expensive. But maybe just an UVB bulb would do.

This one.

Yes - they are expensive, but I felt that I might not be absorbing oral Vit D due to gut problems, and as Vit D seems to be so important for health, I thought that it was a worthwhile investment.

Sorry - we are straying somewhat from resistant starch!
 
Messages
40
@MeSci Yes we are, but veyr informative nonetheless!

Edit: Holy sh** MeSci, these symptoms are eerily similar to mine. I never thought lack of balance could be attributed to gut problems.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
@MeSci Yes we are, but veyr informative nonetheless!

Edit: Holy sh** MeSci, these symptoms are eerily similar to mine. I never thought lack of balance could be attributed to gut problems.

It might not be. It's just a common ME symptom, as are the others.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
Not really :
Dietary resistant starch prevents urinary excretion of 25-hydroxycholecalciferol and vitamin D-binding protein in type 1 diabetic rats.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23677864

It's all tied together, isn't it?

I'm not promoting this, but the Marshall Protocol, a protocol originally for Sarcoidosis, consisting of avoiding all Vit D, taking low doses of antibiotics along with Benitar to keep symptoms from getting to annoying has an interesting take on vit d. Trevor Marshall says the vit d receptors are infected, causing a multitude of problems. I don't know if he actually found the genes to be mutated; I'll have to check. The folks there have all the classic immune deficiency symptoms and diseases.

I have seen a lot of people say that even after taking high doses of vit d that their levels didn't go up appreciably, so there must be something else involved.

Let me guess....bacteria?
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
It's all tied together, isn't it?

I'm not promoting this, but the Marshall Protocol, a protocol originally for Sarcoidosis, consisting of avoiding all Vit D, taking low doses of antibiotics along with Benitar to keep symptoms from getting to annoying has an interesting take on vit d. Trevor Marshall says the vit d receptors are infected, causing a multitude of problems. I don't know if he actually found the genes to be mutated; I'll have to check. The folks there have all the classic immune deficiency symptoms and diseases.

I have seen a lot of people say that even after taking high doses of vit d that their levels didn't go up appreciably, so there must be something else involved.

Let me guess....bacteria?

There is a good and relevant discussion on Vitamin D here.
 

Asklipia

Senior Member
Messages
999
It's all tied together, isn't it?
Yes, this is what I believe.
I have no information on the reality of what is happening with the patients on the Marshall Protocol.
I did not go this route, on the contrary, I did lots of sunshine and lots of lambs brains, hoping to assimilate enough K2 to let my body enjoy higher levels of Vitamin D.

Most probably the lowering of levels of vitamin D is an adaptation of the body for a lowering of Vitamin K.
Low levels of vitamin K could occur because of Fake Folates which turn vitamin K into anti-K, or because of a lack of K2 producing bacteria, or both. Stress also certainly plays a part.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
Yes, this is what I believe.
I have no information on the reality of what is happening with the patients on the Marshall Protocol.
I did not go this route, on the contrary, I did lots of sunshine and lots of lambs brains, hoping to assimilate enough K2 to let my body enjoy higher levels of Vitamin D.

Most probably the lowering of levels of vitamin D is an adaptation of the body for a lowering of Vitamin K.
Low levels of vitamin K could occur because of Fake Folates which turn vitamin K into anti-K, or because of a lack of K2 producing bacteria, or both. Stress also certainly plays a part.

That route makes more sense to me, too.

Maybe when the bacteria guy checks in he'll have some extra input, too.:nerd:
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
I second this thought from MeSci.

Some of the symptoms being studied on this thread as being signs of improvement could also be signs of regression.


A simple explanation could be that CFS/ME is a group of symptoms caused by something in the bloodstream. When you feel better, you have reduced those substances, but there are still some stored in your glands, organs, and soft tissues. There are also some stored inside the bacteria and biofilm in the gut.
When you start to take something that enhances the immune system or even just changes the pH of the blood, it causes some of the stored substances to reenter the bloodstream, and voila, the symptoms return.
Pain in the joints is a sign that some of the substances are being stored there.

So to decide if something is good for you or bad for you, you have to figure out what it does in the body, and also how much is good, is it the best choice at the moment, etc. etc, etc.
 

Helen

Senior Member
Messages
2,243
...
Low levels of vitamin K could occur because of Fake Folates which turn vitamin K into anti-K, or because of a lack of K2 producing bacteria, or both...

Asklipia, maybe this has been discussed and I just missed it. Could you please tell , what are Fake Folates ? Are these statements facts or hypothesis? Thanks.
 

Asklipia

Senior Member
Messages
999
Asklipia, maybe this has been discussed and I just missed it. Could you please tell , what are Fake Folates ? Are these statements facts or hypothesis? Thanks.
Fake Folates is the name I gave to man-made folates, which includes Folic acid, Folinic acid, MSG and other glutamates.
You can look for my former posts about this.
This is a theory of mine, but I cannot say it is mine! Just the result of a lot of reading so it must be expressed somewhere. Or maybe not?
If I dreamt it up, never mind, on the basis of this I have managed to get cured I think.
My call in life is not to publish any scientific work so I do not keep a stack of links to justify my ideas, sorry!

But if you are interested I am sure you will be able to find the information that led me to this.

Glutamates have an anti-K action, because they combine with Vitamin K. If the result is not usable for some reason (wrong type of glutamate or too much of glutamate around) this induces a vitamin K deficiency because there is not enough vitamin K around to coalesce with all that glutamate and that some of these man-made glutamates are trapping vitamin K in unusable compounds.
For example : a lot of MSG and not eating enough Vit K or eating lots of K1 and not have the bacteria to change it into K2 = vitamin K deficiency.

Vitamin K deficiency means big problems with calcium allocation. And with Vitamin D.

I really do not want to discuss this too much on this thread, I am now interested in our experiment with Resistant Starch and its ramifications.
I do not have the qualifications for judging if references are worthy or not. Nor the means to do independent testing. I have built my hypotheses to survive, and I have tried them on myself.
So please take what I write as just that : as faithfully as I can, I report what has happened to me and the intuitions that led me.
The facts that I relate as being my reaction to what I experimented are as exact as possible. I relate them here in detail so that someone more qualified may make more sense of them.
I am not advising anyone to imitate what I do. I am nobody"s DOCTOR!
 
Last edited:

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
It's all tied together, isn't it?

I'm not promoting this, but the Marshall Protocol, a protocol originally for Sarcoidosis, consisting of avoiding all Vit D, taking low doses of antibiotics along with Benitar to keep symptoms from getting to annoying has an interesting take on vit d. Trevor Marshall says the vit d receptors are infected, causing a multitude of problems. I don't know if he actually found the genes to be mutated; I'll have to check. The folks there have all the classic immune deficiency symptoms and diseases.

I have seen a lot of people say that even after taking high doses of vit d that their levels didn't go up appreciably, so there must be something else involved.

Let me guess....bacteria?

Vitamin D is nothing without hydroxylation, which is carried out by hydroxylase enzymes in the liver and kidney. (Not to be confused with Hydrolase enzymes) Hydroxylation is the process that makes the Cytochrome P450 system work and oxidizes those things that would otherwise makes us ill. It is also essential for biosynthesis and metabolism of all hormones/prohormones including those that largely affect our voluntary energy expenditures--all the catecholamines, VitD, cortisol, they all will be affected by impaired hydroxylation; it is seemingly of great importance to keep the control of oxidizing bad stuff and synthesizing energy together because global decreases in hydroxylation will affect so many processes related to the regulation of oxidative stress. As an example of decreased hydroxylation, you have something like congenital deficiency of 21-Hydroxylase, which causes adrenal insufficiency, salt wasting, etc., sounds a bit like "adrenal fatigue," don't you think?

Vitamin D completely lacks biological activity until hydroxylation. It simply has no significant effect on humans until it is hydroxylated. Hydroxylation is also critical for amine metabolism. With enhanced hydroxylation, one can more efficiently process hydroxyl groups, which are just groups that contain an Oxygen molecule bound to a Hydrogen molecule, but there is a special problem caused by a particular kind of hydroxyl group with a different charge called the "hydroxyl radical." This is something we have to deal with in abundance due to our existing poor ability to suppress oxidative stress combined with our high NOS/ROS burden. Hydroxyl radicals are highly reactive molecules that destroys your proteins, your fats, your DNA. This molecule doesn't stay around long, but it causes lots of problems. As you may have guessed, endotoxins are also negatively charged and generate their own hydroxyl radicals.

A number of these hydroxylase enzymes are particularly notable, including the aromatic amino acid hydroylase enzymes. This includes tyrosine, phenyalanine, and trypophan and thus influences a whole host of critical biologic molecules that are metabolized from these. Energy, hormones, sleep, mood obviously have the potential to be affected. All the stress hormones and melanin are produced from phenylanine. I think I mentioned that i felt that the dark circles under many peoples eyes (particularly when they experience the effects of circulating endotoxins) is related to the cellular debris from microbial organisms that metabolize phenols because the byproduct is melanin. In effect, I think there is biological role for these organisms that can decompose melanin, which suggests we have high concentrations of phenolic and related compounds. A similar condition, at least biochemically and symptomatically, hepatic encephalopathy, also demonstrates an accumulation of aromatic amino acids and a scarcity of BCCA. This is also a condition where elevated plasma ammonia is nearly universal; actually it shares countless similarities with ME/CFS among a number of notable differences. Of course, I think the evidence of hepatic dysfunction in ME/CFS is growing, and any GIT syndrome is going to affect the liver. One of theories regarding the pathogenesis of hepatic encephalopathy relates to an accumulation of phenols.

Looking at the aromatic amino acids, which require hydroxylation, tyrosine, has that same -OH (hydroxyl) group. It just so happens Bifidobacteria are really good at getting rid of phenolic compounds, like tyrosine. Salicylates are phenolic compounds, as are those neurotransmitters that come from phenylalanine. Toxic compounds like cresols, another phenolic compound, accumulates in those with lower counts of Bifidobacteria, and these accumulations are not trivial. Tryptophan, well you know that this is the precursor to serotonin, I will not discuss this one now, but you can extrapolate the consequences this may create.

What about the stuff that I really don't like, threonine. Makes me feel awful, involved in maintaining intestinal integrity. It's metabolism is closely tied to serine, cysteine, glycine, active site for VDR deglycosylation by N-acetylgalactosaminadase occurs at a threonine residue. Threonine has an -OH (hydroxyl) group, and it is incorporated as part of a set of critical enzymes called the serine/threonine-specific protein kinase group, these actually carry out phosphorylation functions, including phosphorylation of the vitamin D receptor.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
Vitamin D is nothing without hydroxylation, which is carried out by hydroxylase enzymes in the liver and kidney. (Not to be confused with Hydrolase enzymes) Hydroxylation is the process that makes the Cytochrome P450 system work and oxidizes those things that would otherwise makes us ill. It is also essential for biosynthesis and metabolism of all hormones/prohormones including those that largely affect our voluntary energy expenditures--all the catecholamines, VitD, cortisol, they all will be affected by impaired hydroxylation; it is seemingly of great importance to keep the control of oxidizing bad stuff and synthesizing energy together because global decreases in hydroxylation will affect so many processes related to the regulation of oxidative stress. As an example of decreased hydroxylation, you have something like congenital deficiency of 21-Hydroxylase, which causes adrenal insufficiency, salt wasting, etc., sounds a bit like "adrenal fatigue," don't you think?

Vitamin D completely lacks biological activity until hydroxylation. It simply has no significant effect on humans until it is hydroxylated. Hydroxylation is also critical for amine metabolism. With enhanced hydroxylation, one can more efficiently process hydroxyl groups, which are just groups that contain an Oxygen molecule bound to a Hydrogen molecule, but there is a special problem caused by a particular kind of hydroxyl group with a different charge called the "hydroxyl radical." This is something we have to deal with in abundance due to our existing poor ability to suppress oxidative stress combined with our high NOS/ROS burden. Hydroxyl radicals are highly reactive molecules that destroys your proteins, your fats, your DNA. This molecule doesn't stay around long, but it causes lots of problems. As you may have guessed, endotoxins are also negatively charged and generate their own hydroxyl radicals.

A number of these hydroxylase enzymes are particularly notable, including the aromatic amino acid hydroylase enzymes. This includes tyrosine, phenyalanine, and trypophan and thus influences a whole host of critical biologic molecules that are metabolized from these. Energy, hormones, sleep, mood obviously have the potential to be affected. All the stress hormones and melanin are produced from phenylanine. I think I mentioned that i felt that the dark circles under many peoples eyes (particularly when they experience the effects of circulating endotoxins) is related to the cellular debris from microbial organisms that metabolize phenols because the byproduct is melanin. In effect, I think there is biological role for these organisms that can decompose melanin, which suggests we have high concentrations of phenolic and related compounds. A similar condition, at least biochemically and symptomatically, hepatic encephalopathy, also demonstrates an accumulation of aromatic amino acids and a scarcity of BCCA. This is also a condition where elevated plasma ammonia is nearly universal; actually it shares countless similarities with ME/CFS among a number of notable differences. Of course, I think the evidence of hepatic dysfunction in ME/CFS is growing, and any GIT syndrome is going to affect the liver. One of theories regarding the pathogenesis of hepatic encephalopathy relates to an accumulation of phenols.

Looking at the aromatic amino acids, which require hydroxylation, tyrosine, has that same -OH (hydroxyl) group. It just so happens Bifidobacteria are really good at getting rid of phenolic compounds, like tyrosine. Salicylates are phenolic compounds, as are those neurotransmitters that come from phenylalanine. Toxic compounds like cresols, another phenolic compound, accumulates in those with lower counts of Bifidobacteria, and these accumulations are not trivial. Tryptophan, well you know that this is the precursor to serotonin, I will not discuss this one now, but you can extrapolate the consequences this may create.

What about the stuff that I really don't like, threonine. Makes me feel awful, involved in maintaining intestinal integrity. It's metabolism is closely tied to serine, cysteine, glycine, active site for VDR deglycosylation by N-acetylgalactosaminadase occurs at a threonine residue. Threonine has an -OH (hydroxyl) group, and it is incorporated as part of a set of critical enzymes called the serine/threonine-specific protein kinase group, these actually carry out phosphorylation functions, including phosphorylation of the vitamin D receptor.

That's an incredible amount of information. Most of which I don't understand, but will work at it until I do.

I would like to ask one simple question, though, if you have time. I bought a magnesium supplement that is chelated to glycine and lysine. I see glycine is among the aminos whose metabolism is closely tied to threonine, which I do think I have a problem with, too. If I remember correctly, glycine is an amino that can very easily cause problems when one has uric acid issues. Would magnesium glycinate be bad, in that case? I usually sabotage myself one way or another, and if that's what I'm going, the sooner I find out the better.

I'd just like to add that with respect to the information in the first paragraph, I have not been tested but have found that I have 99% in common with porphyria symptoms. Which means that I have to avoid or keep to a minimum anything that triggers Cytochrome P450 enzymes, because the production short circuits and causes build up of porphyrins. Do you think that having a shortage of CYP450 enzymes affects Vitamin D, or is it only the other way around?

Thanks for all the information you provide, I really appreciate it.