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A Little Poisoning Along the Road to ME/CFS
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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Tundras of Europa
    Kockens has an organic version (if it's marked "KRAV" it's organic).
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2014
    Sasha likes this.
  2. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Bob's isn't organic, as far as I can see.
     
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  3. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    Yes l think you are right.
     
  4. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    For those interested in organic..
    I had doubts about the Frontier Trading starch but I've determined it behaves exactly the same in water (and feels the same) as raw potato starch I made myself when I was playing around with small doses and the Honig brand which I got to try later on.
    Also, Frontier is what I've used since I started big doses a couple of days ago and I got that often reported reaction of rock solid sleep and crystal clear recall of long and extremely detailed dreams.

    I was having an uncomfortable gut reaction on the smaller doses so I "fasted" on bone broth, fresh juices (fibre strained out) and aloe vera juice for a couple of days and then I took 2 Tbsp....that's when I had the great sleep. Obviously that approach wont suit everyone, but it worked well for me so I'm putting it out there.

    I've taken a 2 Tbsp+ dose twice now, around 5pm. The second dose did not promote good sleep and dream recall for what that's worth. I'll reintroduce some bifido coconut yogurt and other things this weekend, and see if I can still get away with minimal negative reaction to the big doses. The only gut reaction I got was around 9pm, a slightly tight feeling in the gut and a kind of humming/buzzing sensation. The only other change I've noticed is slightly swollen lymph glands in the neck.

    Anne.
     
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  5. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    "Leitch et al. [24] found relatives Eubacterium rectale, Ruminococcus bromii and Bifidobacterium adolescentis to be the main colonisers of resistant starch particles, and these same species were detected using stable isotope probing with labelled starch by Kovatcheva-Datchary et al. [25]" (source)

    Saw Grace/Dr.BG reference the above in a recent comment to Tim Steele. Apparently she is also big on Clostridium butyricum which can be found in the AOR ProBiotic-3.

    Also saw Tim Steele takes Cocoa powder with his RS and Greens. Thinking of adding the greens to the mix as well.

    Also found a north american supplier for GOS from Bimuno. http://www.medtrition.com/preb2-about/
     
  6. aprilk1869

    aprilk1869 Senior Member

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    Effect of Soaking Solution Concentration on Resistant Starch and Oligosaccharide Content of Adzuki, Fava, Lima and Mung Bean

    Legume starches are typically more resistant to digestion than various other starches, rendering them low glycemic index foods, and potential substrates for beneficial colonic fermentation. The presence of oligosaccharides however reduces acceptability of various legumes. This study aimed to quantify resistant starch levels in some commonly consumed legumes - adzuki, fava, lima and mung bean - and assess the effect of varying soaking solution concentration on resistant starch and oligosaccharides. Legume samples were treated for twelve hours with either 1 % or 5 % citric acid or sodium bicarbonate solutions. A control sample was soaked in distilled water. These were autoclaved at 120 oC and freeze dried. Samples were analyzed for resistant starch by the procedure of McCleary and Monaghan 2002, and for oligosaccharides using a Megazyme? analysis kit. Adzuki bean had the lowest resistant starch content in the distilled water controls (2.94 g /100 g dry weight), while fava bean had the highest resistant starch content (5.15 g /100 g dry weight). Treatment with 5 % bicarbonate solution, decreased resistant starch in all legumes, while soaking in 5 % citric acid solution resulted in increases in resistant starch. Soaking in 5 % citric acid or sodium bicarbonate resulted in decrease in total starch, except for lima bean. There were minimal changes in oligosaccharide levels. Concentration of pre-process soaking solution therefore has considerable effect on resistant starch formation and retention, and a less noticeable effect on oligosaccharide levels.

    http://www.medwelljournals.com/abstract/?doi=jftech.2003.4.8
     
  7. Xhale19991

    Xhale19991

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    I have SIBO and IBS. I find that I can't tolerate any form of carbs. The ketogenic diet is the only thing that gives me significant relief from all my digestive woes. Potatoes always give me a flare up as do most every other carbohydrate source I have tried. Anyone else experience this?
     
  8. South

    South Senior Member

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    [quote="...Also found a north american supplier for GOS from Bimuno. http://www.medtrition.com/preb2-about/[/quote]

    Unfortunately they added xylitol to the product. Xylitol kills some kinds of bacteria, and has never been studied as to whether it kills bifidos or not. Some people get diarrhea just by taking xylitol.
     
  9. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Sorry to hear that. Here's a response from Paul Jaminet that addresses someone in a similar situation.
    In other words, you just need to focus on a gut-healing and gradually reintroducing safe starches as you can tolerate them. Go slow.

    More details for those with carb intolerance were provided here:

    White rice is typically what people start on with serious gut issues. It's the easiest starch to tolerate (easy to digest "Congee" was used in China for millennia). However, your gut bugs may even react to different kinds of white rice. For most people, "sushi rice" (short grain) is best tolerated. If short grain white rice fails, try long grain white rice. You can even over-chew rice to get carbs without them entering your gut while you're starting out – though, that will cause the glucose to enter your blood more quickly. Avoid brown rice and be sure to properly rinse your rice till the water is clear (get a "rice colander" from Amazon to make it easier). Eat small amounts of white rice and build up gradually over time. Safe starches should improve the mucin in your gut barrier over time.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2014
  10. Abha

    Abha Abha

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    I'm on 4 tbs PS for some days now.I haven't had the dreams that some have mentioned but I have had that "satiated feeling". My sleep is much better and I don't seem to be running to the toilet so much during the night to urinate.At times however I do feel nauseous.I have some constipation too and my stools seem to be not so loose.I take the PS first thing in the am and last thing at night.I take it with spring water and goat's milk kefir.I'm taking cabbage juice and carrot juice too.

    On Radio4(or was it 5live?)this morning the experts were discussing the latest developments in GM potatoes.Could the GM work affect the starch content too?.....Here is a link re this work....
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-26223459
     
  11. Abha

    Abha Abha

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    Following on from above...

    Potatoes are seemingly sprayed about 15 times a year in a normal season for blight but if the weather is particularly bad(very wet)the crop is sprayed about 25 times.In threads such as this there is usually mention of organic potatoes etc...This will be different from country to country and even within countries.Can a crop that is sprayed for blight be still considered "Organic"?

    In John Heinerman's book(1995)..."New Encyclopedia of Fruits and Vegetables"..It states..
    "In Ireland men consume more than 170% more potatoes than their Irish American counterparts do.Irish men ate 267grams of starch daily(mostly from spuds),while second generation Irish-Americans in Massachusettes consumed only 116gms of starch daily(with only a small portion coming from potatoes).Statistics indicated that only 29%of all deaths in Ireland for the late 1960S in men aged 45-64years were the result of ischemic heart disease,compared with a whopping 42% of all deaths for the same period in second -generation Boston men".

    This wouldn't be the case today as in the past 30 years or so there is a Chinese or Indian/Pakistani Restaurant/Take a way...in every village(almost)in Ireland.The availability of worldwide travel and food programmes on TV have also drawn the locals away from the reliable "old spud".

    In the same book..."Suicide is often in the news(still is in Ireland/more so today?)these days(USA),particularly among our young people.A San Diego State University history professor Howard Kushner.is inclined to think that societies which consume significant carbohydrates have much lower incidence of suicide than those cultures which do not..In a paper published in the summer 1985 issue of the "Journal of Interdisciplinary History",Dr Kushner postulates that that potatoes and pasta could be keeping untold numbers of Irish and Italians from killing themselves,whereas,the Danes,Germans and Austrians,who consume less of these carbohydrates have higher suicide rates as a result".

    I think there is a PhD Research paper waiting, in the follow up of this old data,for anyone who is interested in such matters!!!!
     
  12. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    In those with "normal" distal bowel flora, I think you are going to see a laxative effect, but the converse can occur in those with large bowel dysbiosis as a result of the displacement of the gram-negative pathogens and the associated inflammatory effects of the endotoxins. In my opinion this is analogous to what is seen with IBS-C. This condition is characterized by a very significant elevations of pro-inflammatory cytokines, but specifically an increase in IL-1β is observed. This is distinctly different than IBS-D. IL-1β affects peristalsis, which is mediated through substance P.

    I think you are going to see inflammation and thus constipation if you try to modify the environment too quickly. From my experience this can occur through many forms of immunostimulation, Lipoic Acid, Probiotics-Fermented Foods, GSH, etc. Endotoxins are going to be released when the cells die. The other problem leading to constipation is caused by preferentially feeding the pathogenic bacteria. This will similarly result in a rise in LPS and can cause problems. cheap carbs are the primary offenders.

    Mg is great though.
     
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  13. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    I've had success with PS, so I decided to give some to my son, whom I believe has some sort of dysbiosis from may rounds of antibiotics when he was young. Unfortunately, he has not been so lucky. After 4 days of 1 tsp of PS in applesauce he reports diarrhea, feeling slightly ill in his lower abdomen and a noticeable negative turn to his mood/demeanor. I can't confirm this, but I'm afraid he's suffering because the PS is either feeding something bad or there is an increase of endotoxins from something dying. Not sure what to attribute this to, as PS seems like such a benign substance, and it's such a small dose, to boot. :(
     
  14. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    With potato starch, we aren't really talking about eating potato flesh and whatever toxins are in them. We are talking about a highly purified hard granule that is left behind when you wash away all of the potato flesh.

    The granules are just a very pure form of amylopectin.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amylopectin

    You can actually make potato starch with the worst and most disgusting potatoes — the starch is just as pure and safe as the starch made from perfect potatoes, once the process is done.
     
  15. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    I would stop for two days and then try a half teaspoon or even a quarter teaspoon for a few days. Focus on probiotic foods, especially probiotic from raw grass-fed dairy if you can. If tolerated, raw milk from grass fed cows can do wonders for kids.
     
  16. Vegas

    Vegas Senior Member

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    Yes, that is the pattern. I have seen this in my children as well, but these same signs and symptoms can be induced through various immune stimulants, not simply via RS supplementation. It is undoubtedly the consequence of the endotoxins. I also read through some of the symptoms reported by in the threads Ripley linked. This non-ME/CFS population demonstrated some things that I would have expected,albeit the symptoms were much milder and short-lived. The immune activation is really not fun nor is the GI distress. Here are some other things to look out for.

    Signs:
    Many of these organisms are sulfate reducing bacteria, so when their cells are lysed, you will get the characteristic hydrogen sulfide odor. This is a favorable development to the extent that you are displacing unwanted bacteria, but it can be positively correlated with symptom intensity. Another sign is the characteristic dark circles and puffiness under the eyes.

    Symptoms:
    Mood: Expect mood fluctuation. The effect of LPS in causing depressive symptoms in animal experiments is pretty compelling. This is transient, but something to carefully monitor. Once you kill some of those pathogenic organisms, you will reap benefits; these gram-negative pathogens don't go down without a fight. I find that mood lability consistently accompanies bacterial displacement but as time has passed the lows are not as low.

    Hypoglycemia: While LPS in large doses in significant concentrations will diminish appetite, moderate exposures will tend to cause hypoglycemia, achiness, sweating, and an overall icky feeling. This is a major stressor on the Kupffer cells in the liver, in the pancreas, and elsewhere. When the cytokines really start cranking, you can get some nausea as well, thanks to SP

    Lymphatic Involvement: He may complain of some "sore" spots, which corresponds with specific lymph nodes most directly connected to the GI tract. Under the left shoulder blade, behind the knee, in the neck, and a number of other lymphatic "hot spots."

    Tiredness/Fatigue, disrupted sleep, skin breakouts are some other possibilities.

    Are you giving him anything else?
     
  17. thomas_3000

    thomas_3000

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    @Vegas That part regarding the sulfate reducing bacteria is very interesting. Any more info on that?

    I have IBS-C (w. flatulence, anxiety, bad sleep, low energy, fodmap and egg intolerances) and I have quite the gut distress with RS and fermented foods/probiotics.

    The quality and regularity of my BMs has also fluctuated throughout the RS experiment (around 7 weeks now). I started with 3/4 small BMs (never feeling fully "empty") and when I worked up to 4TBS RS + 1 TB Psyllium Husk (mixed with water and kefir) my BMs were regular and Brystol 3/4. Mood and sleep were amazing (anxiety was mostly gone as well), but a lot of flatulence remained.

    Then I introduced the Prescript-Assist SBO and N-Acetyl Cystein and now it's mostly back to where it was before. Sleep is less (somewhat restless sleep), mood is down as well and anxiety is up a bit again. After I introduced the Prescript-Assist probiotic I got some terrible smelling sulphuric gas. It's gotten somewhat less now.

    A fight is being waged down there, I assume. I'm not sure how to proceed, but I think I just keep plodding along. The NAC and P-A supplementation can't be harmful, I guess.
     
  18. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    His flatulence is often strong and unpleasant. Dark circles under his eyes always accompany his seemingly transient foul moods and stomach complaints. What does this indicate?

    I'm sorry, what is SP?

    I find it impossible to sleep in the same bed with him because of how often he tosses and turns in his sleep. Regarding skin, he gets red skin very easily from any kind of abrasion, which I attribute, perhaps wrongly, to histamine.

    Daily: vitamin c, yogurt with added Natren bifido, and apple/applesauce for pectin.
     
  19. Sushi

    Sushi Moderator and Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Thanks for this Vegas.

    I looked at my tests and the only pro-inflammatory cytokine that is really elevated is IL 8 and that seems to be from taking GcMAF. IL-1β is normal. But I am raising the RA dose very, very slowly. It does help with bowel function if I also add a bit of extra magnesium. So far I am up to 2 teaspoons. I know that I have dysbiosis.

    The only other symptom that you mentioned (that I am getting) is a slight puffiness under the eyes. Otherwise all is well.

    You mentioned the possibility of "a major stressor on the Kupffer cells in the liver." I am about to add a medication that can be hard on the liver. Any thoughts on how that might interact with RA?

    Sushi
     
  20. dmholmes

    dmholmes Senior Member

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    @Vegas, sounds exactly like my situation. VSL#3 and Prescript-Assist for a bit before starting RS, had great improvement in chronic constipation. After a couple of months of adding RS constipation returned.

    I did test equivocal on Cyrex LPS IgG, and had the sulphur odor flatulence for the first couple of weeks of RS.

    What's the best way to proceed with this?
     

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