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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Hi Ripley - I don't think Kresser is banning white potatoes for the 'reset' part of his diet because of sugar issues but because it's in the nightshade family. He says so on this page:

    http://paleologix.com/about/dietary-guidelines/

    Slightly strange because he only bans the other nightshades for people with autoimmune problems, as he says further down.

    It's the 'nightshadey-ness' I suppose I'm really hoping has been washed out of the potato starch during its processing.
  2. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Ah, yes. You're right. Most people who pay attention to their health already know if they have nightshade intolerance or not. I think you would know, but he's right that it would be judicious to remove all nightshades if you were trying to "eliminate" suspected toxins and then see what you can add in or not.

    If you are feeling good with PS, I would continue with it for now. Unless you are particularly sensitive, the toxins should all be gone from PS. In the 1800s they discovered they could to make PS from the worst potatoes with the most toxins and the starch was still clean and free of those toxins when it was examined by scientists under a microscope and by eating it cooked. But, you have to test on yourself to know for sure. For all we know, and this is just speculation, some nightshade intolerances might happen from certain inopportune bacteria reacting to some RS. But, as we know, cooked potatoes don't contain that much RS.

    If you aren't feeling so great with added PS, try consuming green plantains in smoothies or dehydrated as chips, or with plantain flour in lieu of potato starch. If you feel good with added PS, stick with it for now.
  3. Sasha

    Sasha Fine, thank you

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    Hard for me to know if I've got a nightshade intolerance - I've only recently realised that some of my symptoms are related to allergens (I've identified gluten as worsening my chronic sinusitis and cashews and eggs as giving me eczema). I think I need to go through an exclusion diet while paying attention to those things.

    I haven't noticed any bad effects from PS. I think I'll continue with it.
  4. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    I've been ramping up my RS intake for a few weeks now, and it wasn't until I hit 3 tbsp RS + 1 tsp of psyllium that I noticed an effect (taken in the AM with 12oz water and a small meal). I can't quantify it, obviously, but I do feel noticeably better physically, mentally and my bowel movements are also improved. A big thanks to everyone who contributes here!

    Earlier in the thread I noticed folks mentioning something called a "herxheimer reaction". I googled it briefly and see it's what I'd call "die-off". How does one identify if that's truly an issue? I am doing well on RS, a prebiotic, but taking probiotics almost always makes me feel ill. The Jarrow EPS and other higher "potency" ones in particular make me feel awful. Would herxheimer be a possibility? Something else?
    Beyond and Ripley like this.
  5. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    That was my mistake stating that GOS comes from breast milk. Got it confused with all the talk on infant formula. I also realized the caloriesproper blog is biased to a low carb narrative. I appreciate your critiques.

    I believe diversity is key, so I'm thinking of mixing GOS, PS, Plantain flour, Cocoa flavonols, Pectin, maybe a little Psyllium with bifido bifidus and infantis, thus making a super-charged bifido booster.

    Also taking SBO's and several other probiotics for variety at other times of the day.
    Sasha likes this.
  6. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    It's never a bad idea to diversify — in fact, it's highly recommended. Hopefully you get some good results with GOS, but it's worth pointing out that GOS is just a stop-gap for the formula manufacturer. Real human breast milk actually has 200 different “human milk oligosaccharides”. In a way, human breast milk has more "fiber" than protein!
  7. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

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    (re image/table which I tried and failed to copy and paste)

    I am encouraged that cellulose is quite good for producing butyrate. As a vegan I get plenty of cellulose! :)
  8. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Those two seem to be different. I believe this is the full paper - http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1075996413001029

    Reading it now; very interesting.

    1) Am I missing it somewhere, or does it not say what the "control" consists of?

    2) iin vitro fermentation, via frozen stool samples. o.0

    3) The RS is amylose corn starch, not PS.

    4) I'm struck by all the tested fibers strongly lowering the % of Firmicutes, Clostridia and Clostridiales. I assume they're lower because other bacteria increase in absolute number relative to them, rather than them dying off.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2014
  9. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Well, again, in vitro is a bit different than in vivo. In vivo would be better. So I wouldn't put all your faith in the results of that study.

    Nevertheless, fibers can enduce die-off by increasing SCFA production, through fermentation, which in turn lowers the pH as the colon (or colon simulator, in this case) becomes more acidic. The beneficial acidity tends to kill off pathogens.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2014
  10. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Not that anyone needs much convincing, but here's another great quote from Tim Steele on the evidence for our dietary requirements in consuming a wide range of fibers.

    See. RS is just a part of the equation. It just happens to be difficult to obtain in the modern diet.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2014
    dmholmes, Gestalt and Sasha like this.
  11. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    In vivo has several other thousand confounding variables that are nearly impossible to account for using the best of modern technology. Therefore measuring things in vivo is exponentially more difficult leading possibly to highly flawed readings and conclusions. I think in many cases I may trust results in vitro more where variables can be isolated and controlled and individual gut-biome variance has less of a confounding factor. I think the important thing to remember is that any study (vivo or vitro) having to do with the black box that is the gut-biome needs to be taken with a grain of salt. The cumulative or meta data will give you the best information rather than any single study or experiment.
    Ripley likes this.
  12. finalgates

    finalgates

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    what dosager of pectin are better than RS(at what dosages) for bifido?
  13. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    The tatertot quote, above, is referring to how RS fits into what researchers have called the "carbohydrate gap". Basically researchers have calculated that human SCFA production can't be fulfilled — particularly in the Western diet — without RS.

    Here's a quote from the report that tatertot was referring to in that quote:


    And here's another description of the "carbohydrate gap" in layman's terms:

    So, that's what RS does for us, in a nutshell. It closes the "carbohydrate gap" that allows us to fulfill our maximum SCFA output in conjunction with the other fibers.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2014
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  14. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Here's a fantastic blog about microbiota musings:

    http://mrheisenbug.wordpress.com

    Heisenbug was a bit skeptical of Tim Steele's American Gut Project results, in this post:

    Resistant Starch: Case closed? Not so fast.

    Tatertot responded and they had a great exchange. Heisenbug followed up with this post:

    Gut vs. Gut: This is how & why Resistant Starch is working

    and this post:

    Was I too hard on Bifidobacteria?

    He seems to have an open mind and the critical reviews of the role of RS are excellent reads. Nevertheless, even Heisenbug seems convinced that RS consumption is necessary. Whether he gets most things right or wrong, I can't say (no one can), but it's a really great blog covering these complex topics.
    Gestalt and Sasha like this.
  15. thomas_3000

    thomas_3000

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    Going off on another tangent here: Does anyone has a formulated opinion about the use of butyric acid (in the form of sodium butyrate) in the treatment of dysbiosis?

    There's an extensive post on it here, by Stephan Guyenet: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.nl/2009/12/butyric-acid-ancient-controller-of.html
    Keep in mind that this was written in 2009, way before the RS 'craze'.

    Here are my thoughts on it:
    Sodium butyrate has been shown to be successful in treating a range of GI disorders (Chron's, UC), both through oral supplementation and the use of enemas (research examples are in the Guyenet article). Since butyrate lowers the ph of the colon (makes it more acidic) I suspect that butyrate might be very helpful in improving gut health. The lowering of the ph of the colon is also one of the benefits that resistant starch offers. RS feeds bacteria that produce butyrate which lowers the ph. Sodium butyrate does this directly. Thus, it seems, that combining butyrate supplementation with RS (and possibly other fibers) will create an even more pronounced effect. Another benefit is that supplementation with butyrate will directly decrease the colon's ph, while with RS and other fibers you might be feeding the wrong bacteria, and thus the colon's ph might increase resulting in a higher degree of dysbiosis and worse symptoms.

    This ties in well with Dave Asprey's bulletproof coffee and the bulletproof diet. Bulletproof coffee is basically coffee with a shitload of butter and coconut or MCT oil. Until recently I was a proponent of the Bulletproof Diet, as it made me feel somewhat better. Yes, a lot of people notice good results with an increase of butter/coconut oil intake, but what you essentially do is that you bypass the trillions of bacteria in your colon that will produce the butyrate (and acetate,etc) for you (for free!), if you just feed them enough. I've heard Asprey talk about that he's sensitive to close to everything (hence his affinity with mycotoxins) and that the Bulletproof Diet works well for him. As a result I believe he is doing a low-FODMAP approach of his diet. I've also heard him say that he basically doesn't fart on his diet. Hmm.. wonder why? Might there be close to zero colonic fermentation taking place? I believe so. It might just be that he isn't feeding his gut microbiota. He's tried RS and reportedly stopped with the RS supplementation because he was afraid he was feeding the bad bugs. In his case that probably is true because he probably has a severe dysbiosis and the only thing that's keeping that somewhat under control is his enormous intake of butter.

    The solution is obviously not just to increase butyric acid intake. But in combination with the right fibers it might result in a synergistic effect (?)

    Thoughts?
  16. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Not really an option for someone suffering from steatorrhea, me and a lot of others with inflammed intestines have that. One day I took too much organic traditionally fermented butter and it gave me greasy diarreah. So much for the butter butyrate.

    Sodium and magnesium butyrate are very interesting supps that I would want to try, but probably resistant starch is a cheaper supplement with a broader positive effect.
  17. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    @Ripley

    After a stool analysis my doctor wants me to take Galactomune prebiotic, Ther-Biotic factors 1 and 4 (4 strains of Bifido and Lactobacillus rhamnosus) Mutaflor, Mastic gum and Nystatin to get rid of candida and strep. I am up to 1 Tbs RS and taking bifido already. Would you say it is okay to start on the doctors recommendations?
  18. South

    South Senior Member

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  19. Christopher

    Christopher Senior Member

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    Anyone combining RS with other forms of fermentable fibers?
    Beyond likes this.
  20. xjhuez

    xjhuez Senior Member

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    Psyllium. Considering apple pectin and beta-glucan.

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