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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by Ripley, Dec 11, 2013.

  1. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    What I was trying to gather, when I asked if you were "low carb", was whether or not you were eating sufficient quantities of starches in your diet. If you read the recent Candida thread, you would have seen the evidence on why low carb diets don't work against yeast/Candida over the long term. If you are avoiding "gluten, dairy, sugar, and yeast" but not eating enough starches, you aren't fermenting and that means likely in or near ketosis with an alkaline gut — which will ignite yeast/Candida and promote fungal infections, particularly since yeasts are eukaryotes and all eukaryotic organisms have mitochondria that can eventually adapt to and absorb ketones as a prime fuel source. Plus, those acid-producing SCFAs kill pathogenic yeasts!

    So, that's what I was going after.

    And if you are eating sufficient quantities of starch, then you would already know if you can tolerate resistant starch because a diet with sufficient levels of starch already provides ~8g of resistant starch per day!

    Before you dismiss a moderate-starch diet, consider the fact that many low carbers have resolved their fungal/yeast infections by simply adding a good amount of starches to their diets.

    And finally, a pattern has emerged from reports on freetheanimal.com where the people who claim that RS doesn't work for them tend to be very low carbers who don't eat enough "safe starches". It seems that something is off with the guts of these low carbers. At this point, all fingers are pointing to an alkaline gut/intestine that promotes pathogens with RS probably just feeding the bad guys. But, if you eat enough (RS-rich) fermentable carbs your gut starts fermenting and shifts to a more acidic pH that inactivates pathogens and promotes beneficial flora. But, of course, doing that requires eating foods that contain RS.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
  2. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    By the way, I WOULD ENCOURAGE EVERYONE TO PAY ATTENTION TO THEIR WEIGHT AS THEY UP THEIR RS CONSUMPTION. Since RS improves nutrient absorption, you should technically be more satiated as you consume more RS. Although many people end up naturally eating less from this feeling of satiety, some people have a habit of eating portions that they are used to and may end up absorbing more calories than they previously were. In that situation, that person would gain weight if they didn't adjust their diet.

    Tim Steele explains here:

     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
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  3. South

    South Senior Member

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    @satori Did that testing lab have you use unheated raw potato starch and do a Metametrix test both before and after? I just ask because some of the labs, even the big name ones, forget to mention that testing before and after using a new substance is better proof than only testing once.

    I'm wildly curious whether candida/fungi/yeasts can eat the resistant starch that is in the raw (unmodified) potato starch.

    I might do this unscientific experiment: put the unmodified potato starch in sterile water, add some baker's yeast from the grocery store, put it in a warm place and wait a half day or so. Although baker's yeast is a different kind of yeast than candida is, they share some abilities to digest nutrients. If my little experiment gets bubbly, I guess that might be a hint for us. But not conclusive.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
  4. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    @South, I doubt you'll find much of a meaningful answer from his results. If yeasts like Candida are benign in acidic environments and pathogenic in alkaline environments that means that they would react differently in different environments. The fact that many low carbers resolve their fungal infections by increasing their starch consumption suggests that the increased fermentable starches helps create a beneficial acidic environment chockfull of SCFAs and that those starches don't promote pathogenic yeasts/fungi in that acidic environment.

    Secondly, if RS did feed yeast/candida, it's unlikely that @Gestalt would be seeing his Candida symptoms improve so much. Based on the conversations we had in that thread, my guess is that he was eating a good amount of safe starches too.

    Based on the pattern of other negative results coming in from low carbers at FTA, my guess is that RS feeds pathogens in an alkaline gut (since an alkaline gut seems to promote pathogens, as well as Candida and yeasts) and feeds beneficial flora in an acidic gut that is fermenting sufficient quantities of fermentable carbs.

    So, I think we are talking about two different universes of microbiota here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
  5. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    @South, it really isn't that simple. Again, you would need to account for the different pH between an alkaline (low-fermenting) large intestine and an acidic (high-fermenting) large intestine.

    And the SCFAs from the high-fermenting gut plays a beneficial role as well.
     
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  6. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Is it possible to get a usefull amount of resistant starch from food alone?

    What would be best for this, potato, sweet potato, white rice?

    Should these foods be prepared in any certain way?
     
  7. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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  8. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    The other day I took RS in the morning, but not the evening. I woke up the following morning starving with my glucose crashing.

    If on the other-hand I take RS closer to bed-time I don't have this issue. I realized that RS via feeding bifido and manufacturing SCFA's providing an alternate fuel (especially for the colon) has a glucose sparring effect. Pretty cool.
     
  9. satori

    satori

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    I did before and after tests and used Bob's Red Mill PS. I've done before and after with many things. I'm not lacking in starch and have done before and after tests for just about every diet and supplement you can imagine. The science isn't as simple in practice as it is in theory.
     
  10. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    If you are eating PHD-levels of starch, then you are probably already consuming 5-8 grams of RS per day.

    That's true. It's not simple. That's for sure. For those who fail on RS (and keep in mind that there are other forms of RS worth trying besides potato starch) Dr. Grace/BG hypothesizes that those people are zookeepers feeding either "empty zoo cages" or "viper-filled zoo cages". I think those are excellent descriptions of what happens when prebiotics fail for someone.

    If you have empty zoo cages, she stresses the importance of consuming other fibers from foods (FOS, NSP) and making sure you are getting a variety of good probiotics (SBOs, fermented foods, bits of soil) to populate those cages. And RS helps carry those probiotics to the colon.

    If you have "viper-filled zoo cages" yes, it's more complicated.

    Since some people with fungal/yeast infections have done well with increased starches and RS, my guess is that those who don't do well have a "zoo cage" problem. Either the beneficial bacteria are missing or some really nasty pathogens are occupying their playground.
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014
  11. Gestalt

    Gestalt Senior Member

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    Hence why I now take Bifido Bifidus and Infantis with my RS, just to be certain I am at least feeding some of the good guys that help crowd out and eliminate the bad guys. :)
     
  12. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    I tried the backdoor delivery yesterday, using 1 tbs PS and some regular probiotics. I can't say I get a better reaction this way. Using RS (PS) seems to make me sluggish, anxious and bloated, as well as giving me mild headaches and brain fog.

    I don't know if I have "vile" or "empty" cages, but my GI fx showed no opportunistic pathogens. I do probably have some yeast, though.

    I have been following the PHD for a few weeks now, and that seems to go well. I have much improved glucose regulation on the diet, and no GI problems. I also seem to tolerate fermented foods like sauerkraut well, but as I said earlier the PA SBOs didn't sit well with me.

    Perhaps I will just focus on following the diet and eating fermented foods for now. I might try some of other SBOs that Dr. BG recommends. Or perhaps I should try another type of RS, like tapioca.
     
  13. thomas_3000

    thomas_3000

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    The thing with mild headaches and brain fog is that they could either be good or bad (good being an herxheimer reaction, and bad being that you feed the bad guys).

    The fact that your GI fx does not show opportunistic pathogens isn't all that telling. Pathogens have this tendency to create biofilms to ensure they don't get excreted. i.e. they might still be there, but they just don't show up in your stool (test). If the test showed that you must have a relatively healthy gut it might be a good idea to supplement with Klare Labs Interfase Plus or N-acetyl Cysteine (NAC). Both are effective at disrupting biofilms (although Interfase+ probably even better than NAC).

    Did you do a retention enema btw? And which probiotics did you use?
     
  14. Abha

    Abha Abha

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    Hi Ripley,

    How long have you been using resistant starch(which type?) and what benefits have you found?You may have answered this elsewhere so ,please forgive me if you have.I have bad gut/brain/bowel problems(physical problems too)....and my candida problems are much worse.At times I have managed to cope with them and do the correct things re diet....but at times too I have let my defence weaken and my present state is the result.Have you tried Tapioca starch?I'm using two types of kefir at present...goat's milk and water.Have you any thoughts on these re this protocol.?...Any comments very welcome..Thank you...
     
  15. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Thanks. I did retention, yes. Used a mix of lactobacillus and bifido.

    I do take NAC and enzymes on a regular basis, although not biofilm specific. I have tried Kirkman biofilm defense and others without any noticeable effect.
     
  16. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    You can always try a little RS down the road. You may want to ease off slowly, rather than all at once. Give the gut bugs a chance to ease off gradually.

    Most tapioca starches seems to have fair amount of digestible starch in it, so it tends to spike blood sugars and doesn't seem to be that powerful.

    I would try plantain flour (from Barry Farms) before giving up completely. Green plantains are a good source of RS, particularly for those with nightshade issues. Another option is to peel a green plantain and stick it in a smoothie.
     
  17. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    Hi Abha,

    I've been using RS since last summer, while I was recovering from a yeast/fungal overgrowth that got out of control from going too low carb. You can read about what I did to fix my problem. A year before that I was a pretty normal/healthy person before going low carb. After 8 months of going too low carb, I had panic attacks, short term memory problems, insomnia, adrenal fatigue, blood sugar issues. I was able to fix all of those with that protocol in just a few months time. YMMV, but that's what worked for me.

    Unless you have a glucometer and can confirm no post-prandial spikes after taking tapioca, I would avoid tapioca starch. Depending on the source (and even the package), there isn't enough RS in it. Tapioca seems to be unreliable. Try plantain flour instead.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
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  18. brenda

    brenda Senior Member

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    I have just been speaking to my doctor for the results of a DD CSA.

    Expected/Beneficial flora
    3+ Bacteroides fragilis group
    NG Bifidobacterium spp.
    2+ Escherichia coli
    NG Lactobacillus spp.
    NG Enterococcus spp.
    3+ Clostridium spp.
    NG = No Growth
    Commensal (Imbalanced) flora
    2+Beta step not group A or B
    2+Providencia retteri
    2+ Serratia liquefaciens group

    I see Bifido is not present. I have just started to take it in powder form but wonder if that will get to the bowel? I am taking it with my RS tonight. Does anyone know whether RS is ok with any of these bacteria? She wants me to take Nystatin and caprylic acid +Mutiflor
     
  19. Ripley

    Ripley Senior Member

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    I was on PHD for a few months before I tried RS. And during those few months, I had a nice gradual improvement. But, prior to PHD, there were all sorts of things that gave me brain fog. Taking magnesium oil gave me brain fog. Eating high quality beef liver gave me terrible brain fog. Eating beef kidney gave me brain fog. Earthing gave me nausea. It was like anything I did that was supposed to be "good" for me made me feel worse.

    The first thing that turned me around was a powerful herbal anti-fungal/biofilm disruptor tincture called A-FNG. It comes from Byron White Formulas. They only sell through a practitioner who knows how to use it — it's just too powerful to sell directly to people. The doc had me use something similar to this protocol and it gradually increases your doses till you get herx reactions and then backs off and you work up to 20 drops 2x/day. Doc wanted me low carb but since I had gotten sick from low carb I went with the PHD and he was fine with that. It worked wonders, but it was just one piece of the puzzle.

    Just two or three drops of the A-FNG formula started to lift my brain fog within a day. It was like someone turned on a light switch in side of me. The whole point of trying A-FNG is to see if you get herx reactions or improvements. If you get either, it's a good sign that you have a fungal infection (otherwise it shouldn't do anything).

    Eventually, after a few months, I was feeling 60-70% better and I added in RS for blood sugar regulation — I was one of the early n=1 adopters. At the time I was surprised to get another boost in my recovery. That's when I realized it was more powerful than just for blood sugar regulation. And after a few months of using A-FNG, under the guidance of a practitioner, and eating PHD, and then supplementing with RS, I no longer got brain fog from beef liver or beef kidney or magnesium oil. Those things began to make me feel good.

    @adreno I think you would probably do well to back off of supplemental RS if you don't feel good with it. If you are eating sufficient PHD-level starches (weighed your food to check) then you should be getting about 5-8g of Resistant Starch, which is way more than most Americans. And if that makes you feel good, then just stick with it. So, if 5-8g of RS from food makes you feel good, and 30-40g of supplemental RS makes you feel bad, then just stop supplementing the extra RS for a few months. You'll still be getting good amounts of RS. Even if you only took a half-teaspoon of PS, you'd still be getting way more RS that an average American.

    Many people get terrific results with the PHD, and those results tend to happen slowly (months). If they happened quickly, I imagine people would get herx reactions. Luckily, the changes are more gradual. So, the PHD helps a lot, but the changes happen gradually, and it also supports your immune system while you attempt other provocations (antifungals, antivirals, etc). Over time, things change once you figure them out. I think you can't go wrong with the PHD if it makes you feel better. If you want to, try a little RS in a few months and let your gut guide you.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2014
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  20. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

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    Thanks @Ripley , I might give the A-FNG a go. Like you, there are many things that on paper should be helpful for me, but just end up making me feel worse. That said, the PHD is definitely making me feel better.

    I think you are on to something here. I have probably not put enough emphasis on diet before. I have believed I ate quite healthily, but after reading the PHD I can see I have done many things wrong. I used to think that eating for example gluten free buns and mayonaise couldn't be that bad, but I probably have eaten way too much omega 6 and grains. I've also eaten lots of chicken which apparently is quite full of omega-6. I guess all the small things add up.

    The worst problems for me has been "adrenal fatigue" and orthostatic intolerance, and those are improving. I do not seem to get the severe crashes I had before where I felt like I was going to die. I can stand and walk longer. I am cautiously hopefull about the future :)
     
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