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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

S

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
That's scary about h. pylori, @Sidereal. I'll be having a test for that this week and if it's positive I expect I'll be offered the big guns. Then I'll be in a bit of a quandary.

I worked up a tsp a day to 12 tsp (4 tbsp) daily with the RS, and apart from increased wind (nothing spectacular!) for a while and an immediate vanishing of long-term constipation, there were no noticable effects. The improvement in my OI was gradual.

That's all gone down the pan (quite literally, perhaps! :cool:) now that I've had to cut right back on the PS and have stopped the VSL-3. I'm down to 4 tsp/day of PS and I'd like to stop it altogether but I get total constipation if I do. I'm hoping the PA and/or butyricum might sort that out and allow me to stop the PS.

I'm sorry that your illness started with abx. It must be horrible to be able to point to an intervention that was supposed to help you and know it gave you this horrible illness.
 
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Gondwanaland

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,095
I want to play with Myiarisan too :aghhh::cry:

My order has probably been incinerated by customs :(

I still have hope though, since I have already received stuff after 3 months :eek: Still 2 more waiting weeks before giving up hope :ill:
 
adreno

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
I have a problem with SIBO as the hypothesis stands.

Firstly, it was initially believed that the SI should be sterile, but this was found to be false. Who actually knows which and how many bacteria should reside in the SI? Secondly, there are no definitive tests for SIBO, all of them have false positives/negatives. And finally, there seem to be no effective treatment. Treatments with antibiotics are hit or miss, and many relapse.

It seems most likely to me that the many relapses mean that antibiotics are not the way to deal with any "SIBO". Instead, there must be some perpetuating factors, in my mind this is dysbiosis, or lack of ability to control overgrowth of bad guys. Both tests and treatments for "SIBO" sounds pretty much like a waste of time to me. Then again, these are just my thoughts.
 
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S

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
adreno said:
Both tests and treatments for "SIBO" sounds pretty much like a waste of time to me.
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Some of the proposed treatments like rifaximin and other antibiotics are sheer lunacy. How are you supposed to ever win the battle against the overgrowth of pathogens if you keep wiping out the commensals? It's as if they've learned nothing from the C. diff story.
 
JPV

JPV

ɹǝqɯǝɯ ɹoıuǝs
Messages
858
Sidereal said:
I also have H. pylori that gives me gastritis every so often so it's not surprising that there should be nasty symptoms.
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I'll just leave this here...
The effect of probiotic treatment with Clostridium butyricum on enterohemorrhagic Escherichia coli O157:H7 infection in mice

For example, C. butyricumhas been shown to have antagonistic interaction against Candida albicans, Clostridium difficile, enterotoxigenic E. coli, Klebsiella spp., Salmonella spp., Vibriospp. and Helicobacter pylori [16–21]. In addition, butyric acid produced by C. butyricum has a proliferative effect on mucosal cells in the intestine [22] and it was reported that butyric acid produced by C. butyricum has therapeutic efficiency against the inflammatory bowel disease [23].
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S

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
JPV said:
I'll just leave this here...
Click to expand...

Thanks, it certainly feels like displacement of H. pylori is happening and there is lots of upset in the small intestine also but the side effects are pretty severe and probably not something I can push through. We'll see.
 
S

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
adreno said:
I have a problem with SIBO as the hypothesis stands.

Firstly, it was initially believed that the SI should be sterile, but this was found to be false. Who actually knows which and how many bacteria should reside in the SI? Secondly, there are no definitive tests for SIBO, all of them have false positives/negatives.
Click to expand...

You raise good points - in my reading about this, I haven't come across any case/control (or indeed any) counts of bacteria in the SI. I don't know if that would even be possible, without surgery. And if patients aren't having their bacterial counts measured, what is the breath test validated against?

Anybody know?
 
S

Sidereal

Senior Member
Messages
4,856
Sasha said:
You raise good points - in my reading about this, I haven't come across any case/control (or indeed any) counts of bacteria in the SI. I don't know if that would even be possible, without surgery. And if patients aren't having their bacterial counts measured, what is the breath test validated against?

Anybody know?
Click to expand...

I don't know, the test seems fairly controversial...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1856094/

SIBO is a condition caused by an abnormal number of bacteria in the small intestine. Symptoms related to bacterial overgrowth in the small intestine are diarrhoea, weight loss, anaemia, and malabsorption.56,57,58,59 SIBO is a common cause of malabsorption and malnutrition,56,60 especially among the elderly61,62 and in patients with blind loops,59 stenosis,63 diverticula,64,65 and motor disorders.66,67 Recently, SIBO has been suggested to be associated with a large number of different conditions, such as coeliac disease,34chronic pancreatitis,68,69 hypothyroidism,70 Parkinson's disease,71 and fibromyalgia.72 However, the proposed contribution of SIBO to IBS has received the greatest attention, with studies demonstrating prevalence values of 38–84% of SIBO in IBS,8,9,72,73,74 but these studies have been heavily criticised,75,76,77,78,79 and contradictory results exist.80,81 In most cases the diagnosis of SIBO has been established by the use of hydrogen breath tests, usually with glucose or lactulose. However, the use of breath tests and interpretation of the result require knowledge about these tests. In some studies discussion around possible sources of errors with the test has been very sparse, as well as alternative interpretations of the results.68,82,83,84,85
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Abnormal versus normal results
Definitions of normal and abnormal results of breath tests are even more variable than for cultures. The lack of generally accepted definitions raises a situation where you can almost choose the test and definition that best suits your purpose. It is not uncommon to see the same authors change their definitions of a positive test in different papers.8,9,72 Only a few papers have described adequately their reasons for choosing a certain cut off point.23,24,25,104
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adreno

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
SUMMARY:
A fundamental problem with SIBO, and one that allows controversy to simmer, is the lack of a universally accepted and applied gold standard for the diagnosis of SIBO. Hopefully, the application of molecular microbiological methods to the characterization of the small intestinal microbiome will tell us, once and for all, what is normal and when 'abnormality' is truly responsible for symptoms and disease. Meanwhile, therapy remains, for the most part, empirical and is based on the correction, wherever possible, of any underlying cause, attention to nutritional deficiencies, and the use of antibiotics.
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24406476
 
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whodathunkit

whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
adreno said:
I guess so :p
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I'm glad to see Caveguy back, and Prostrate Wheelchair Woman gone. Although I did like the first avatar of yours I ever saw the best. I call him "Up-close Caveguy" (your current one is "Selfie Caveguy"). Up-close Caveguy is what you actually look like in my head, BTW. LOL
 
aimossy

aimossy

Senior Member
Messages
1,106
Nice to see a SIBO conversation. I have been tested and have methane SIBO very high levels, but am iffy about the science being great and many relapse like adreno said. I have issues about killing off my good stuff too like sidereal says. The odd success story re treatment I have come across but not many at all. It's enough to drive you bananas. I don't tolerate Bananas!!
 
Gondwanaland

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,095
Sidereal said:
Last week I was also experimenting with vitamin K2 which I think worsened my fatigue so it's hard to say what's going on exactly.
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I wonder if it would hurt less if take a K2 dose while immersed on a sodium bicarbonate bath, and the heart wouldn't jump out of my chest again :cautious:
 
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