The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[adreno]

How much pectin are you guys taking? Is there any significant difference between citrus and apple pectin?

 

[anne_likes_red]

@anne_likes_red, wow, sorry to hear. Were you taking it every day? Thanks for the warning. I'm getting serious hypotension + feeling like trash globally from modified citrus pectin.

Once per week at first and built up to daily, then back to 2 x per week after I realised effects were lasting 2 - 3 days.
At least the experience has highlighted the need to address the SIBO issue more thoroughly!

With RS I had underlying improvement at the same time as immune provocation....although in the longer term bad outweighed good. SIBO again? (Still investigating.)

 

[anne_likes_red]

@adreno I've had no problem with homemade crabapple pectin in the past - difficult to define a dose there sorry!
Citrus....same sorry...don't roll your eyes hard to define because I was eating whole organic orange. And I mean whole. LOL.
1/4 orange --> fever for 3 days. Repeated many times.

 

[adreno]

In modified citrus pectin, the pectin has been chemically altered to break its molecules into smaller pieces. Pectin in its natural form cannot be absorbed by the body and is considered a type of soluble dietary fiber, whereas modified pectin can be absorbed into the bloodstream.

http://www.cancer.org/treatment/tre...icine/dietandnutrition/modified-citrus-pectin

Why would anyone want modified citrus pectin (unless they have cancer, obviously)? For prebiotic purposes, you don't want it into the bloodstream. Also, it's helluva expensive.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Maybe my gut is so "leaky" those rules don't apply ... LOL.
Yeah I knew that about the bioavailability, and at first (a couple of months ago) thought it must be the phytochemicals in the flavedo (outer skin) I was "reacting" to. I'm assuming it's the pectin - but possibly not. The reaction kicked in 4 - 5 hours after ingestion, though the first couple of times I tried it I had canker sores erupt in mouth and throat after 2 hours. I also had (minor compared to RS) improvement in sleep and in dream recall which made me suspect an effect on gut flora. Hopefully positive.

I had a bad reaction to MCP in the past but stopped taking it after a few days.

 

[whodathunkit]

@anne_likes_red and @Sidereal : Modified citrus pectin (MCP) is also a chelator of things like lead, iron, etc. Metals which are also components of biofilms. So I wonder if your bad reactions had anything to do with biofilm disruption and bad guys getting a little extra zapped? Perhaps a herx (in the most common sense of usage). Not saying that for sure...just thinking out loud.

What else are/were you guys taking besides MP and potato starch?

MCP was part of my chelation regimen several years ago (I wasn't taking it too help feed gut flora but purely to help leach metals from my system) and found it quite valuable. Sorry to hear you're having trouble.

 

[anne_likes_red]

I'm taking a minute amount of PS in a probiotic and getting other resistant starch from diet.
I'm also taking 1/2 tsp LAG most days. Crabapples are ready for harvest and we use the extracted pectin in drinks - probably just a very small dose?
(I'm off oranges for now.)
The net result for me, now things have mostly settled, seems to be that I have more upper GI issues than I did before I started, and worsened gut motility. Also on-going lymph issues.

Yes I took MCP as a chelator originally - this was a few years ago.

 

[Sidereal]

@adreno, I took a gram of the Swanson MCP product (a tub of it cost about 20 bucks so not that expensive) yesterday and woke up feeling rubbish and flu-like. Standard herx-like reaction I get to pretty much every prebiotic. Then a couple of hours ago I stood up to go downstairs and didn't realise how bad my OI had gotten until I nearly fell down the stairs, everything was spinning. Took my BP, 87/60. This stuff is no joke. I was unprepared for the severity of the reaction.

@whodathunkit, what dose did you take to start off with?

 

[Sidereal]

I should add this isn't the first type of pectin I've supplemented. I've also tried baobab and beet root pectin. Both gave me massive hypoglycaemia after a couple of days. Before the hypo kicked in, beet made me feel great and the dark circles around my eyes started disappearing. Alas, I had to discontinue it because eating every 30 minutes is not feasible lol.

 

[whodathunkit]

@Sidereal, I just don't remember. It was largish, though...probably at least 2x what it recommends on the bottle. Because that's just how I am sometimes.

@anne_likes_red: Well, dang. Sorry it made things worse. Do you think it's because all the good stuff isn't making it to your large intestine? Have you considered a small enema with a little ps and probiotics and maybe another thing or two? I almost went that route because what I was taking seemed to not be getting where it was needed. Little bit of decreased motility (not bad, but if it had continued I would have gotten concerned fairly quickly), gas, bloating, etc. But things seemed to resolve kind of suddenly after a couple weeks bolus dosing everything. I was one workday away from trying some ps and other stuff loaded into an emptied Fleet enema bottle as per someone's recs early on in the thread, when BOOM.

Not advocating you bolus dose, because I understand the sides might be too much going that route, but rather trying to illustrate maybe getting something into the distal colon might help, if you think you have SIBO and that's part of the problem. I think that's what happened to me...I finally got enough of the good stuff where it was supposed to be.

But as always, I'm no expert. Just thinking out loud.

Edited to add: incidentally, my blood sugar is WAY down after all this, and under control. I had my first under-100-first-morning-glucose today, in probably 2 years. For me that's a good thing.

 

[Sidereal]

@whodathunkit, my impression is the same, as if RS and other stuff is stalling before it gets to the distal colon where you want it. My SIBO has definitely worsened somewhat but my other symptoms have improved so I'll keep going for now. How much stuff did you take when you were bolus dosing, roughly? I do worry for those of us who have really leaky guts, would bolusing just lead to horrible endotoxemia and no benefit. It sounds like you were able to overwhelm whatever was holding your progress back. I must say I've had the same idea, just never had the stones to try it.

 

[whodathunkit]

@Sidereal: well, I did some work on my leaky gut (doctor diagnosed me) a few years ago with some probiotics, chelation, etc. I also did a lot of work on my adrenals (improved but did not cure) and my thyroid with iodine. I seriously think that foundational work I did back then, while not nearly as aggressive as what I've attempted here at PR, set the stage for being able to handle my recently aggressive measures. I also went gonzo on Freddd's methylfolate protocol, which also helped prep me for this gut challenge. Then I went gonzo on the gut. Just tired of feeling like crap, I guess, and wanted to see if I could speed things up a bit.

That's by way of saying that I agree with you, many would probably not be able to handle the bolus dosing. I came into this with some foundational recovery already in place. I don't think i would have been able to handle my aggressive measures with the gut as well if I'd tried it back then as opposed to now. Or even if I'd tried it before methylation. I would have had much worse sides, perhaps "derailing" sides.

Anyway, the bolus: 4 tablespoons PS morning and night (some days did a few extra tablespoons, up to 12 tbsp/day). For those who are shocked by this I will say I deliberately set a timeframe of no more than 2 weeks to do this. I'm aware that such high doses for a protraced period of time are not good. But I wanted to see if I could get "push" stuff into to my distal colon. My poor colon has been put through the ringer with crap food, stress, abx, colonics a couple decades ago, fibroids crowding my abdomen, etc. I didn't know what it might take to get it normalized again, especially with the crowding. Aside from flora and lining problems, its likely being pinched in at least a couple places.

I also added in beta glucan caps and glucommannan caps. Then I added in 3 scoops of arabinex per day. Also inulin. Plus I was high-dosing AOR and Prescript Assist at 3 caps per day. I also rotated in and out VSL-3, Natren b.infantis and b.bifidum, plus some multi-strain high bifido stuff. I

Like I said, I was about at the end of my self-imposed deadline for bolus dosing (a day away from loading an empty Fleet bottle with some stuff and trying the bolus at the other end ) when the mail started to move, so to speak. As someone characterized it earlier in the thread, Bristol Type Awesome.

So now I'm back down to 1 tablespoon PS per day, along with 1 tablespoon banana flour, 1 scoop arabinex, less beta glucan, less glucommanan, much lessened dosages of probiotics, etc. More of a normal regimen. And I'm trying to get more fiber from foods. As my colon recovers I expect this will be easier, although not sure if I'll ever feel secure enough not to supplement some fiber. I won't ever risk a backslide on this. It's too important.

 

[Sidereal]

Anyway, I started taking 4 tablespoons PS morning and night (some days did a few extra tablespoons, up to 12/day). For those who are shocked by this I will say I deliberately set a timeframe of no more than 2 weeks to do this. I'm aware that such high doses for a protraced period of time are not good. But I wanted to see if I could get "push" stuff into to my distal colon. My poor colon has been put through the ringer with crap food, stress, abx, colonics a couple decades ago, fibroids crowding my abdomen, etc. I didn't know what it might take to get it normalized again, especially with the crowding. Aside from flora and lining problems, its likely being pinched in at least a couple places.

I also added in beta glucan caps and glucommannan caps. Then I added in 3 scoops of arabinex per day. Also inulin. Plus I was high-dosing AOR and Prescript Assist at 3 caps per day. I also rotated in and out VSL-3, Natren b.infantis and b.bifidum, plus some multi-strain high bifido stuff. I

Omg.

 

[whodathunkit]

Omg.

Yeah. I know. It's a character flaw.

 

[Sidereal]

Yeah. I know. It's a character flaw.

Your story reminds me a bit of another anecdote of endotoxemia followed by massive improvement in metabolic disease I read a while back in the comment section of Hyperlipid's blog. Stuff like this, as well as my own personal experiences with various prebiotics, have convinced me that the microbiome is key. How to fix it and whether it is fixable is a lot less clear, though.

Wooo, there is 'something' to this RS thing, I'm afraid. A 70 y.o. type 2 diabetic lady (insulin treated) on my blog saw her BG and HbA1c deteriorating over the past years, despite strict adherence to a very low carb diet. She is very determined, not the cheating kind of person. I suggested to try RS (potato starch), which she did. First her BG's went erratic for a while, very unpredictable. I suggested to stop the experiment, but she decided to give it some more time. Then after about 2 months, fasting and pp readings came down quite dramatically. Long story short, her HbA1c went from 8,2 in december 2013, to 5,8 a few days ago. I assure you, the only thing she changed was adding RS.

She has now embarked on the Taylor approach. I am very curious if she will accomplish unassisted normoglycaemia after 30 years of type 2. It would be quite revolutionary.

[...]

Before she started the RS intervention, she injected 55 units of Lantus (long acting insulin) once a day. Over the last half year she had to gradually decrease her bolus and is now on 43 units/day.

She tracks her ketones with a ketone meter (plasma) and has been in ketosis more or less constantly since she started very low carb some years ago. First she saw the expected (dramatic) glycaemic improvement, but, as I said, much to her frustration her blood glucoses and A1c's started creeping up after a while. Nothing worked to get a better grip on it, so she is over happy with this apparantly succesful hack.

My feeling is that she has a massively insulin resistant liver and that the ectopic fat which causes this is very stubborn. RS is converted in the colon to butyrate, acetate and propionate. These SCFA's induce enterocytic gluconeogenesis, which in some paradoxical turn puts a brake on hepatic glucose output. Don't ask me how this works, maybe Peter would like to elucidate us .

She is still making some c-peptide (0,31 fasting). Let's assume that her liver and pancreas indeed contain too much fat and that this is indeed causal to her inability to achieve unassisted normoglycaemia. Will the 600 kcal/day Taylor approach be able to get this stubborn surplus moving (and if so, why didn't her very low carb regimen accomplish this)? Will this then be enough to spark more life into the remaining beta cells, as Taylor predicts?

If she persists we will have an answer in August...

[...]

Peter, my rudimentary 'explanation' is that RS can shift an LPS-spewing and thus diabetogenic microbiome into a non or less toxic one. It's interesting that this woman became very ill prior to the onset of glycaemic improvement. She reported all the symptoms of sepsis and I'm afraid that my 'suggestion' almost killed her. After that episode (a battle between 'good' and 'bad' bacteria?) things started to move into he right direction.

If there is some truth to my speculation, we must conclude that very low carb is sometimes not enough to starve and replace a toxic/diabetogenic microbiome.

 

[Asklipia]

@adreno I've had no problem with homemade crabapple pectin in the past - difficult to define a dose there sorry!
Citrus....same sorry...don't roll your eyes hard to define because I was eating whole organic orange. And I mean whole. LOL.
1/4 orange --> fever for 3 days. Repeated many times.

Sorry about that @anne_likes_red
I wonder if this reaction is not due to candidiasis. It is widely agreed that citrus fruit are to be avoided when trying to reduce Candida. Maybe nothing to do with pectin itself.

 

[jepps]

@anne_likes_red and @Sidereal it´s only a thought, and everything could be wrong, but there could be 2 possibilities:
The RS/fibre ratio is important. With RS alone or if the RS amount is to high compared with the fibres, we support bacterias feed by the RS, which suppress other essential bacterias. This could promote SIBO, and than we should treat SIBO for a few weeks, before setting back to RS and fibres. Treating SIBO means to reduce RS+fibres and taking herbs for SIBO for a short periode.
Typical SIBO-symptoms is (according to Chris Kresser) reacting to lactobacillus.

Another possibility is, that because of Th1 response, which is supported by the gut, low grade viruses come up, or a chronic viruse flares up because of candida die off, which was bound to candida+heavy metals. The Th1 response to the virus makes symptoms, and the virus should be treated with several rotating herbs for a short time (not to long to do not any damage to the flora).

If the Th1 response is not very strong, and the chronic infection is mild, the symptoms will pass. But if the infection is strong (maybe lyme or coxsackie as in my case), and intense brain symptoms are involved, then the immune system needs support, and herbs are needed.

Binders for mycotoxins and heavy metals could be important, I take zeolite, which is also preferred by Dr. Grace.

According to Chris Kresser it takes years to heal the gut. The more we react to prebiotics and fermented foods, the more muddled is our gut and the longer takes the process of healing.

 

[anne_likes_red]

Sorry about that @anne_likes_red
I wonder if this reaction is not due to candidiasis. It is widely agreed that citrus fruit are to be avoided when trying to reduce Candida. Maybe nothing to do with pectin itself.

Well that's something I hadn't considered. More investigating due I think...
Thx

 

[jepps]

Another possibility could be, that with treating the gut, and as microbes are dying, metals are released. As metals act as antibiotic, they can provoke a temporarily SIBO. This can last a few weeks, then should go away. If not, or if symptoms are worsening, we could consider the temporarily SIBO protocol.

 

[whodathunkit]

Incidentally, to anyone interested in the blood sugar control angle of straightening out your gut, my first morning glucose this morning was 79. That's as low as it's ever been since first started monitoring it 6 - 7 years ago. Before today the lowest it's ever been was mid-80's.

Two and half months ago it was *179*.

Full disclosure: I've also been doing intermittent fasting for the last couple/few weeks...started that about the same time I started the bolus dosing. So that's probably helping blood sugar, too, but I credit a large portion of the improvement with addressing the gut via pre- and probiotics.

Your story reminds me a bit of another anecdote of endotoxemia followed by massive improvement in metabolic disease I read a while back in the comment section of Hyperlipid's blog. Stuff like this, as well as my own personal experiences with various prebiotics, have convinced me that the microbiome is key. How to fix it and whether it is fixable is a lot less clear, though.

I now suspect a broken microbiome is probably one of the few things that is almost completely fixable for the majority of people. The biggest barriers are probably self-education and time. That is, some may not want to or be able to make the time to self-educate or make the time commitment necessary to work through all the side effects and then to keep the gut functioning optimally. Straightening out the gut, and then keeping it straight isn't something you can work on for a month or six months or two years and then quit. It's for life.

For me, like my LCF, mfolate, mB12, and adB12, this gut regimen is for life. Hopefully in massively reduced doses in the not-too-distant future, but it's just going to be part of what I do every day from here on out.

Rocky Balboa swallowed his raw eggs...we'll just be drinking nasty concoctions of PS, banana flour, larch tree bark, and various probiotic strains.