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The relative importance of leaky gut prior to methylation treatment

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Beyond, May 30, 2013.

  1. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    I need some guidance on this. When my worst problems started (which back then I could only barely link to "CFS" or autism like I do now) the first thing I got was flaky eczema or dermatitis in sides of the nose, one eyebrow and sometimes in forehead, more scalp dandruff and severe sleep problems. I also had a gurgling stomach and not really healthy BMs. Eventually I got a IgG testing of 16 foods that came back highly positive for all of them, these multiples intolerances granted me a diagnosis from a functional doctor for Leaky Gut Syndrome. This guy was useless down the road btw.

    During these three years none of these symptoms have resolved, although a increasingly healthy and strict diet makes my skin problems shrunk to only the nose and scalp area. Thus I assume I still have leaky gut, even while I dont have very obvious digestive problems, especially sticking to a paleo diet. Eating dark chocolate, chip crisps, etc seems to trigger discomfort lately. Sometimes I eat dairy and it doesnt gives a problem gut-wise, once in a wedding recently I ate gluten and what not and was almost fine. I feel like my gut its more sensitive now than how it was, but my diet its very antinflammatory.

    It is commonly said that if you have leaky gut problems they need to be taken care before starting methylation. However, my digestive system its quite asymptomatic while my energy, sleep and mood/mental problems are quite bad and getting worse. Plus, I never gave it a good thought, but I have some degree of brain fog, because I find terrifying and impossible the idea of learning to drive and people always told me I was a "mess" when I was trying to fit into the system ignoring my health problems, lots of anecdotes with "the mess", some of them frankly comic! Haha. And my problems with putting up with my family and society with my "hypochondria" and "psychosomatic illness" are getting hot, not to mention my own emotional burden of being like this, like a prisoner in my own house and body. I need tangible improvements soon, for my own morale and to release pressure from the family.

    So I was wondering if someone have ignored the leaky gut thing that wasnt severe and have been succesful with methylation, which its an easy and standarized protocol, whereas curing the gut its very troublesome it seems, plus there are those that say curing methylation helps the gut. I also have adrenal and thyroid issues but I think I can handle those, making some steps to manage them with doctors...
  2. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

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    I know my most recent doctor agrees that curing methylation helps the gut. I'd been trying on my own (quite unsuccessfully) to heal my gut on my own. Then I saw a naturapathic doctor who focused on gut health (with little improvement) for about six weeks. Then I saw this doctor - who started methylation treatment. Within three weeks, my chronic diahrrea and sensitivity to foods was immensely improved. I hadn't realized the skin issues were related - but, my patch of eczema on my eyelid is gone, my adult acne is improved, as is a lot of the itchy scalp - none of which I thought was related to any of this. And I'm beyond relieved to report that the bone-crushing fatigue is almost completely gone. I'm still 'tired' sometimes. But it feels like a normal tired - the kind that comes from doing more with my body than it's used to - as opposed to - I can't function anymore, must go lay down now-kind of tired.

    In my expectations - I would expect folks to have multiple issues if they have issues with methylation and methylation treatment might not heal everything. But treating it might thin down the complex list of symptoms we seem to get to help make it easier to diagnose whatever is left.

    Good luck
    Red04, maryb and Beyond like this.
  3. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    http://www.melodiagrill.com/uploads/2/9/2/8/2928807/leakygut.pdf
    I am really interested in hearing what caledonia and LaurieL think of this subject, since both of them are succesfully tacking methylation and both had gut problems prior to it that also treated. How important would you say its the treatment of the gut problems? I found especially intriguing the approach of LaurieL for leaky gut, the retinoids and g-pathways and all that stuff. Cannot find much of it anywhere. Btw I sent the 23andme spit tube a week ago :D
  4. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    PennyIA
    Sounds like you got a good doc - helping the gut is a biggie for most of us, I am dairy,gluten,egg,sugar free in addition to many other food which cause a reaction, but still not moving forward.
    Are you able to share any of the treatment details.
  5. SB_1108

    SB_1108

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    Have you tried the l-glutamine for your leaky gut? That helped my skin within 2 days of taking it.
    Beyond likes this.
  6. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    C´mon SB!! Arent you from CureZone? I am Blistering Fate :D

    I have tried two things with glutamine, which are Glutamine Micronized (10-15 grams per day, literally saw the powder in my pee) and IPS of Biotic Research. Didnt feel much from any of these. What changed in your skin? My leaky gut skin symptoms are eczema/dermatitis in the nose and lots of itchy dandruff. I might need to try plain glutamine lol
  7. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I've done some stuff for my gut over the years prior to methylation treatment which has helped some, but by symptoms, I still have at least yeast and leaky gut. My Nutreval test showed markers in all three areas - malabsorption, gut dysbiosis, and fungus/yeast. I'm also leaking taurine and have MTHFR C677T, which are indications I could have h. pylori.

    However, even with that all going on, the methylation supps are definitely working.

    I just ordered the Metametrix GI Effects stool test, to get further info on my various gut problems.

    So my suggestion would be to give methylation supps a try first and see what happens.
    Beyond and helen1 like this.
  8. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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    Does anyone have a good resource for leaky gut basics? I've always assumed I have it, but like you, Beyond, I haven't gotten anywhere with it. Am gluten-free now, my genes show I shouldn't be lactose intolerant but am. And I have hashimoto's thyroiditis, suggesting leaky gut from early on.

    A woman I used to work with had a son who had terrible stomach problems and she took him to some specialists at Stanford and they suggested a low-residue diet, to let the villi repair themselves. That diet was very interesting -- nothing raw, nothing tough like meat fiber, everything processed, nothing acidic like tomato sauce or orange juice, etc. I did it for a month and it did help me significantly at the time (years ago), but it's a very unhealthy diet. I called it the rice diet since all I had was things like rice crispies, rice and well steam veggies, rice cakes, gentle melons like cantelope, etc. And I've had bacterial overgrowth in the past (a course of antibiotics for pneumonia cleared it up for awhile).

    I also am unable to tolerate fats, my gut goes wild whenever I have something with too much fat. One test I had showed I couldn't absorb certain fatty acids, I think long-chain. That leaves things like coconut fat, which are absorbed in other ways.

    Anyway, I've never tried glutamine. My skin issues have mostly been related to increased Synthroid.

    I gave my doctor the Metametrix test form and she said she didn't see a reason for me to take it.
  9. caledonia

    caledonia

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    I'm still feeling my way on this, but Dr. Jess Armine on MTHFRsupport.com Blogtalk Radio show says it's a three step process. You working on the surface lining of the gut, which is only one cell thick, then the next layer and so on. Chia and ghee are two supps which are used. I'm trying to find out more about this.

    Bone broths are also supposed to excellent for healing leaky gut too, so I've incorporated them into my diet. http://www.westonaprice.org/food-features/broth-is-beautiful

    You can order the Metametrix test online without your doctor's order. In fact, I just did this last night myself. The service you order it from provides a doctor to put their stamp on it. https://www.integrativepsychiatry.net/gi_effects_stool_analysis_profile.html
    Jarod likes this.
  10. SB_1108

    SB_1108

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    Blistering Fate/Beyond - Yep thats me!! After about four years I finally took the plunge and joined Phoenix Rising! I've been on Curezone the whole time and only stalked you guys here on Phoneix. But as I see more people discussing copper toxicity on here, I thought it was finally time to join! :) Nice to "see" a familiar face!

    Regarding the Glutamine - I took Jarrow's L-glutamine... seems to really work for me.
  11. Creekee

    Creekee Senior Member

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    Hi Beyond,

    Fwiw, you may put me in the group who is seeing gut improvement with the methylation protocol. I had gone from super bad gut problems to about 70% improvement, but plateaued there. No matter what I tried, I could not seem to make any additional gut progress. So I went ahead and started the SMP.

    Just over three months later, gut is showing slow and steady improvement. Did not experience any gut-related backslide during startup, either.

    Couple other things you might find interesting:

    - My biggest improvement in gut health happened when I started eating homemade yogurt. I never saw much improvement with packaged probiotics, but the fresh yogurt is amazing.

    - My 30-year insomnia is gone. Can you believe it? About ten days into the SMP, I just started sleeping through the night. Still taking one OTC sleeping aid, but regularly getting nine hours a night without rx drugs. It has to be either the SMP or the adrenal support I've been doing. Or a combination. Whatever, it feels like an absolute miracle.

    Hope you find the magic combination for your situation!
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  12. Victronix

    Victronix Senior Member

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  13. PennyIA

    PennyIA Senior Member

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    They are similar to some of the posted simplified treatments for MTHFR.... methylfolate, methylcobalamin, P5P, ALA, NAC, Vitamin C, Vitamin D, probiotics, multivitamins, etc. Plus chiropractic treatment and lymphatic massages; epsom salt baths, etc.

    I'm also gluten free, dairy free, no greasy food (post-gall bladder surgery) and due to complications after oral surgery - am also on a liquid diet. The best part of the liquid diet is that it's a lot easier to avoid gluten this way. The only good part of post-oral surgery is that I no longer have teeth with amalgam fillings.

    I'm a little tired over the past two days (but then again, I was on vacation in NYC and only just got back). But I am amazed at the improvement. I went from having diahrrea 9 days out of 10 even after gut treatment... to nothing post aggressive MTHFR treatment. I have had diahrrea once in the past four weeks. Definite improvement.
    maryb likes this.
  14. LaurieL

    LaurieL Senior Member

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    Beyond,

    I can not even begin to convey how severe my gut problems were prior to methylation. And I had made some strides in toxin removal and probiotica.

    IMO, I think it is too general of a statement to lump gut problems/leaky gut into a general, one size fits all approach. I believe in some, you can do a lot of healing prior to methylation, and in others it takes methylation to get the process started, and then other therapies can then be quite effective after methylation, as opposed to prior to methylation. There are also some that will never have a normal gut, as certain mutations give the tendency to have a bad gut, and there for lifelong maintenance/efforts.

    I would second Creekee's observations concerning homeade yogurt. I have done this for many years now, I even had my mother of pearls from Greece from a supplier here in the US. (You can find these suppliers online). They say these will last you for a long time, but what I found is that over time, they get really acidic, and produce more and more whey. I like a thick, mild flavor. I have also bought starter from local health food stores. Today, my gut problems are little enough that I can buy a 10$ quart container of Greek yogurt and eat a bit everyday and remain well enough.

    Leaky gut, also means toxins. And you will never heal your gut, unless you address toxins. Large molecular weight toxins are easily absorbed, but low molecular weight toxins are not. Many in the mold forums use cholesteramine, but I am not a pharma fan at all. I found using apple pectin fiber mixed with metamucil to be exceptionally effective.

    You will also need to set ahead, a schedule to detox with activated charcoal. With activated charcoal, you will not absorb any supplements. So time your supplements accordingly, as charcoal will bind any minerals/metals.

    The villi in the gut cannot heal without toxin removal. I repeat this again, as it is very important, and not much talked about.

    Sarccomyces Boulardii is also very helpful, in not only crowding out the bad bacteria, but also yeast and fungii. The thing I like about S.boulardii, is that it only stays in your system for a short time. So it crowds out the bad guys, and then dies off when you stop taking it, supposedly takes about 7-9 days. What the use of using this, if you don't put the good guys back in.

    Buttermilk is also very helpful and chock full of good guys. I don't have a dairy intolerance **, so dairy free I would think would be much harder to achieve, and unfortunately I wouldn't be very helpful in that regard. Interestingly, only recently, I am unable to **drink milk, but yogurt, buttermilk,, sour cream, cheese, no problems with them, just store bought milk.

    Once you get the toxins down, and you start noticing the changes in the flora, you need to feed the villi. The villi need certain nutrients to regrow or heal. As mentioned above, the G-proteins and retinoids. I used cod liver oil very successfully. My only advice is to get smaller bottles, as the oil can become rancid, and keep in the fridge. Vitamin A and Vitamin D oppose each other. I took both, as I knew I needed both, so I provided my body with both, in balance of each other, a similar concept with copper and zinc. I have actually used this concept very successfully with some of my other supplements as well.

    I used L-glutithione, high IgA colostrum which also contains lactoferrin, which is important in binding iron, there for making it less accessible (theoretically) to the bad bacteria. Some have enzyme systems quite capable of taking the iron and breaking it down from its bound state with lactoferrin. I also used another colostrum in which had intrinsic factor, which is what is used to absorb B12.

    You should also used digestive enzymes which contain ox bile, and TMG will also help with digestion as well.

    Very cool, you sent in your 23andme test!! Will be looking for the results in a couple of months!!

    LaurieL
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  15. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    I might have copper toxicity, as zinc makes me too agressive. It has been said that when stressed people become estrogen dominant and hold on copper. I am interested in triyng molydebnum, vit C and see.
  16. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Yes I have that test in my mind as well. I think its quite useful.

    Thanks for the info caledonia! A friend of mine knows him, and Armine told him a few more things for the leaky gut, marshmallow root was one of them, cannot remember more. But I am definetely taking chia seeds (grinded) and ghee butter. I have already tried organic ghee it smells and tastes amazing. I can mix the seeds with kefir :p
  17. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Creekee, sure it is a miracle! ;) Sleep problems are a big obstacle to wellness. I am very glad that so many people are getting better with methylation, especially in the sleep area which its certainty one of my weak spots.
    I am definetely gonna do homemade kefir again, tried it for a while and stopped, but the taste its addicting and its too healthy to miss it.
  18. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    Too bad when we depend on skeptical and close-minded doctors,Victronix. They have done a lot of damage. I hope you are able to make the doctor understand you need testing, but some times you have to try your luck with other...
  19. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

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    LaurieL, yes its relative to the personal case. I think I will need both some gut treatment and the methylation protocol, as my tests show the famous Glutathione Depletion. I plan to get a 200 food intolerance tests to avoid problematic foods as I start healing the gut.

    Thats right, the toxin removal isnt discussed at all in the places I have read about. Will bear it in mind. Makes sense that you need to clean the wall before attempting to rebuild it.

    I wonder if yogurt would be better than kefir... theorically no, but I like both. In cultures for health they have an impressive array of yogurts. I dont think I have strong dairy problems, I dont get gut pains or anything with cultured dairy or even cheese.

    Thanks for your long and informative response.

    Yes I am impatient to see the results! I want to dig in other areas other than methylation.
  20. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    PennyIA
    thanks for the reply - no easy route is there? So hard for those of us without a doctor or naturopath with understanding this whole process.

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