Invest in ME Conference 12: First Class in Every Way
OverTheHills wraps up our series of articles on this year's 12th Invest in ME International Conference (IIMEC12) in London with some reflections on her experience as a patient attending the conference for the first time.
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The link between the first polio vaccine in 1934 and the first observed ME outbreak

Discussion in 'General ME/CFS News' started by Countrygirl, Nov 11, 2017.

  1. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    There is no especial reason to blame thimerosal for this.
    Various natural infections have been found to cause CFS, from flu to giardia.

    The modified polio virus in these early attempts at attenuation is one plausible trigger. Polio already has a well known effect in those who get it, https://www.medicinenet.com/post-polio_syndrome/article.htm Post polio syndrome in some aspects mimics CFS, and it's not a huge stretch to imagine that an attenuated vaccine might cause a different form of post polio syndrome.

    Or, indeed that the attenuated infection directly caused CFS.
    Pandemic influenza diagnosis for example caused a doubling of new cases of CFS.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26475444 -
     
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  2. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    There are some really interesting posts above, but I haven't been able to do them justice yet as I have had a rather challenging 36 hours that involved an ambulance (heart problems following another bout of malignant hypertension) and the police, as it seems I locked a burglar in with me, when I went to bed. He then bolted from the house. Just for a lark, they seized all the keys hanging on a ring for four houses, (not ones I own unfortunately) , my front door keys, padlocks and car keys.........and turned the lock leaving me imprisoned inside. I heard footsteps in the night and assumed a large animal was stomping around between the space between the floor and ceiling.............thank goodness I didn't realise the truth. Now it is going to be a very expensive time employing locksmiths.

    In the meantime, I found the following which was written by Dr Hyde:

    http://www.me-cvsvereniging.nl/sites/default/files/A Short History Of M.E. Dr. Byron Hyde.pdf
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
  3. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    No, I agree. \i think it was only a statement of fact.

    For me, my view is that ME seems to be the result of a double-whammy that involves a damaged immune system.............organophosphates, organochlorines, heavy metals for example.........and an infection. For me it was a combination of a tetanus jab, chronic and heavy exposure to organochlorines, and an infection that just wouldn't resolve.

    Edited to add: I also had about seven years of antibiotics, with many courses of the claimed ME-causing antibiotic Septrim.
     
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  4. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Nor are they harmless, if you consider the breast cancer-linked MMTV retrovirus that dogs may transmit to humans, or the Bartonella infection that cats can pass to humans!
     
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  5. RogerBlack

    RogerBlack Senior Member

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    Toxoplasmosis has problematic implications too, before even getting to rabies which still kills a few tens of thousands a year in India mainly.
     
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  6. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    Ah yes, Toxoplasma gondii, the cat parasite that makes women more intelligent, confident and sexually promiscuous, but makes men more stupid. An ideal bioweapon perhaps for any feminist groups planning to takeover of the world!
     
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  7. Mithriel

    Mithriel Senior Member

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    "The first failed polio immunization: Medical publication interest however centred around the staff of the Los Angeles County General Hospital when 192 physicians and hospital health care workers fell ill following an immunization of what was thought to have been an injection of sterile immune convalescent serum taken from what was believed to have been recovered polio patients. It was never resolved whether their illness was caused by the immunization or contact with the thousands of patients who appeared at the doors of the hospital in 1934."

    That doesn't sound like an actual vaccine, but the hope that something in the blood of recovered polio survivors would help prevent the disease. It is easy to forget how little was known about medicine in 1934.

    My mother had a medical book from about then that she always consulted, much to our amusement. One part speculated that boys came from eggs from one overy while girls came from the other.

    I read an article recently, no idea where, that spoke about the first case of autism,but it was a boy. His US doctor called it Autism while a German doctor Asperger was looking at the disease in Europe.

    I am wary about "evidence" against vaccines. The real problems with them are muddied by polemic and the autism community feel the same way about vaccines "causing" autism as we do about BPS theories. All that money wasted to no avail.
     
  8. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    A bit :angel:off topic, but I found this interesting discussion about Hip's MMV reference above.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3181333/
     
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  9. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    What I found the most perplexing about the MMTV – breast cancer research is that although the association between this retrovirus and breast cancer was discovered over 50 years ago, even today, it's still not settled whether this virus actually plays a causal role in breast cancer or not.

    Which just goes to show that even if you find a pathogen associated with a particular disease, it can take a very long time to complete the next step in the research, which is proving whether or not the pathogen actually causes the disease, or plays a causal role in the disease.
     
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  10. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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  11. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member

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    It sounds like an attempt to confer temporary passive immunity by administering an antiserum. It's basically taking antibodies from someone who had recovered from, or is naturally immune to, an infectious disease and giving them to someone who has been, or might be exposed. The antibodies attack the pathogen and, in doing so, can stimulate the host immune system itself to go after a pathogen that had previously evaded it. The immunity only lasts a few weeks or months.

    Immunoglobulin therapy is based on the same idea but is less specific, targeting several different pathogens.

    Prior to the rise of vaccines, antiserum therapy was more widely used to treat/prevent dangerous infections, but it is still used to treat things like exposure to tetanus, rabies and hepatitis infections. I'm not sure if an effective polio antiserum was ever developed.

    Recently, antiserum therapy was somewhat famously used to treat Ebola cases. I know this was done in the US, where a recovered Ebola patient(s) was used to provide antiserum for others.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
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  12. lnester7

    lnester7 Seven

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    Back on topic, does @Countrygirl do you think David T knows this?
    Also, I am concerned for his well being the last person asking similar questions isn’t it still on wheelchair today?!!
    also I am afraid if he gets to close he will get discredited.
     
  13. HowToEscape?

    HowToEscape? Senior Member

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    Conspiracy theories are massively harmful, they are like malware for public understanding. They are information viruses designed to hijack people’s thinking at a point where they are vulnerable to the information virus payload. There also a little bit like the fungus that turns insects into zombies; once a person contracts I conspiracy theory they unconsciously work backwards from the theory to filter all available facts, or further information virus particles disguised as fact.

    There are still people who think the Moon landing was a hoax and there is no rational argument or evidence you can present them which will convince them otherwise. They think HIV was invented by the CIA, and the people were healthier back when half died in childhood. Decades ago it was UFOs, now it seems medical BS has replaced that line of cr—.

    Resolving an issue based on evidence + logical argument and then testing whether results support the theory is an anomaly throughout human history, and it is perhaps now losing favor.

    The US government now spends approximately 100 times as much per year attempting to put a scientific laws on magical thinking (NCCAM) than it does investigating our disease. That’s per order of several influential congressman, such as Tom Hayden who never stopped being a hippie. The harm done by denying resources for real research matters not a bit to them, much as epidemics of preventable diseases matter not a bit to an anti-vaccine conspiracy theorist.
     
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  14. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member

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    Well, what was known as "convalescent poliomyelitis serum" was certainly given to patients in the 1934 Los Angeles outbreak. According to this article of the time, they produced some 15 gallons of the stuff and attempted to administer it as soon as possible to persons who showed the first signs of infection. However, the article mentions nothing about giving the serum prophylactically to the medical staff at LA County Hospital.

    I doesn't prove that it wasn't given to the medical staff at LA County, but it seems an odd omission if it was. Also, if both patients and medical staff were given the same serum, you might expect to see an ME like condition in patients who recovered (if the condition in the medical staff was caused by the same serum). Of course, in patients, those symptoms would likely have been attributed to some kind of post polio syndrome and not the serum.
     
    Last edited: Nov 12, 2017
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  15. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member

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    Yes, it's a bizarre irony that the first director of NCCAM was Dr. Stephen Straus, perhaps the one person most responsible for ME/CFS being dismissed as "all in the head" for three decades.
     
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  16. halcyon

    halcyon Senior Member

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    It was given to the staff. Read the case reports in Gilliam's paper.
     
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  17. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member

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    Thanks for suggesting this. Just my luck, I went over the whole report only to discover that the relevant information was on the last two pages. :bang-head:

    I've attached those last two pages (89-90). The gist of it is that of the 196 hospital staff members who became ill with ME-like symptoms 96 (49%) had received human serum. However, 15 of those received the serum after they developed symptoms, and another 4 developed symptoms on the same day they got the serum. So, 81 (41%) developed symptoms which began at least one day after the serum was administered. 100 staff members (51%) developed symptoms without exposure to the serum.

    The report says that all hospital employees were offered "either normal adult serum or serum from persons convalescent from polio." It appears both types are referred to as "prophylactic serum" in the report. So even among those who received serum, it is unclear what kind of serum they got.

    I am not trying to debunk the polio serum hypothesis. I think it is interesting. I'm just trying to get the actual data.

    Gilliam - Page 89.jpg Gilliam - Page 90.jpg

    [ ETA: The total number of cases was 198, but in only 196 of those cases was the serum history known. ]
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2017
  18. Countrygirl

    Countrygirl Senior Member

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    Yes, we know they can be harmful and just plain exasperating and the examining of accounts by PR of some of the 'theories' relating to our community is invaluable and necessary to get to the truth. However, I m not quite sure exactly what part of this report of the story given by a doctor-patient who was a witness of the event and his doctor who investigated the story is considered to be a conspiracy theory.

    Is it the involvement of The Rockefeller Institute?

    As I am in another part of the world, I know nothing about the Institute. When I first read the transcript of BH's talk, I assumed that the Institute had a financial stake in the vaccine distribution. To me, what was relevant to the vaccine story was that some organisation was prepared to pay out an eye-watering amount of money in exchange for signing a gagging clause. From my point of view, the relevant issue is the compensation, although confirming which organisation paid such large sums of money would help us to understand the motivation.
     
  19. bertiedog

    bertiedog Senior Member

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    My history looks just like yours as I experienced every one of those things without knowing any of it could be damaging me and i got sick in 1979 after 2 weeks of flu. The only other relevant addition would be the strong endocrine issues I experienced following the loss of 4 pints of blood immediately after childbirth involving my adrenals and later the thyroid too. That was in 1975 so it all ties together.

    Pam
     
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  20. Forbin

    Forbin Senior Member

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    Below is an article on the use of antiserum in the 1934 LA polio outbreak. The article was published about six months after the outbreak began (in December 1934).
    Two types of serum were used. Pooled serum from healthy adults and serum from convalescent polio patients. The serum from polio patients could be expected to contain polio antibodies, but I think the pooled serum from healthy adults was probably also expected to contain antibodies to polio. Most people who become infected with polio are asymptomatic and don't even know that they've caught the virus. Others may experience only mild, flu-like symptoms. So, even prior to the widespread use of polio vaccine, you could still have a lot of healthy people running around with polio antibodies in their blood. The doctors may have pooled the healthy serum to increase the odds that the resulting serum would contain polio antibodies.

    At any rate, the article states that people who got either type of the "prophylactic serum" were actually slightly more likely to come down with polio, though their chances of becoming paralyzed seemed to have been reduced by a very small amount (if at all). There were no significant differences between those who received "normal adult serum" and those who received the "convalescent serum." So, in that particular trial, the experimental use of human antiserum in the prevention/treatment of polio was considered a failure.

    Interestingly, the article concludes with a passage about what made the 1934 Los Angeles polio outbreak so different from past outbreaks.
    In this article, I believe all the cases that resembled ME were included with the polio cases at the time.

    The outbreak was unique enough that the article ultimately refers to the infectious agent as the "California virus," and later as The California Strain. [I'll alert Hollywood.:)]

    It does make one wonder if the oddly "weak" but highly contagious nature of this polio strain had something to do with the development of the cases that resembled ME. Other early ME-like outbreaks were referred to as "abortive poliomyelitis" in their day.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
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