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The Histamine Gene rs10156191

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I don't think allergy SNPs should be taken so lightly. Their environment interactions are too powerful, especially for already debilitated people.
Except that there's no indication that they are allergy SNPs. They're on a gene which is associated with histamine, but most SNPs on any gene will not be having an impact. Most of the SNPs which 23andMe is testing are pretty irrelevant, and for the rest nearly everyone has the normal version.

Hence it's important to see if an individual SNP is capable of having an impact before blaming it for something.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,094
Most of the SNPs which 23andMe is testing are pretty irrelevant,
If I stop addressing my issues via the SNP reports, then I am back to the drs who think it's all in my head and keep worsening. So I will rather stick to the positive results I am having for both my husband and myself. I would be lost about what to do for my husband if it weren't the SNP reports. I have been hitting jackpot by sticking to those recommendations!
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
If I stop addressing my issues via the SNP reports, then I am back to the drs who think it's all in my head and keep worsening. So I will rather stick to the positive results I am having for both my husband and myself. I would be lost about what to do for my husband if it weren't the SNP reports. I have been hitting jackpot by sticking to those recommendations!
"Inventing random connections" and "no treatment at all" aren't the only options. The third option is to try understand the actual science instead of accusing innocent SNPs :D I'm going to try to explain this, but I'm not much at good at it, so please disagree or question as desired:
  • Human DNA contains in excess of 3 billion SNPs, spread out over 23 chromosomes. This is called the human genome.
  • There are an estimated 20,000-25,000 genes on the human genome. Each gene is a sequence of SNPs, which work together to describe how a protein in the body should be made.
  • Different parts of a gene do different things. The SNPs in some parts of a gene are translated into amino acids which form proteins. These coding parts are called exons.
  • In the exons, each group of three consecutive SNPs spell out which amino acid should be created next on the protein which a gene creates. Thus CTC in an exon would indicate that a Leucine should be added.
  • But even in exons, our bodies aren't too picky about perfect "spelling". Thus anything in an exon starting with CT and having a third SNP will add Leucine: CTA, CTC, CTG, and CTT all add Leucine, in addition to TTA and TTG. Hence many variations ("typos") are 100% known to be irrelevant and completely harmless.

  • When a variation in an exon results in a different amino acid being created, it's called a missense mutation. For example, replacing CTC with CGC would result in Arginine being substituted for Leucine.
  • Some missense mutations have little or no impact, due to the physical properties of the mutant amino acid being nearly identical to the normal amino acid. For example, if we have ATC instead of the normal CTC, Leucine is replaced by Isoleucine, which has identical physical properties to Leucine. Unless the exact structure of the Leucine in that exact position is needed for the protein to connect to another protein (which is unlikely) this change has no impact.
  • Other missense mutations can have a big impact, especially if the new amino acid behaves very differently. Hence a protein might end up with a weaker bond due to the new amino acid, and perhaps it will break down at a lower temperature now, and not survive long enough to do its job. Or it might form too strong of a bond, and not break down when it should.
  • Nonsense mutations result when a variation in a SNP results in a premature "stop" command, saying that the protein is finished. This is usually pretty bad news, unless it happens near the end of the exons, and not many amino acids are missing. But usually it results in the protein created by the gene being completely ineffective.
  • Pathogenic missense and nonsense mutations which result in a gene becoming completely non-functional isn't always a problem, however - some genes are essentially duplicates of each other, or perform non-essential functions.
  • Common missense mutations which have a large impact are not really pathogenic. They simply represent a normal, non-harmful variation. Hence if production of something is substantially down-regulated by one gene, perhaps its degradation by another gene is also down-regulated. Alternatively, the body might easily accommodate an excess of something, or just eliminate it faster if levels get higher.

  • Things are a little trickier in the areas on genes which aren't in exons, known as introns. SNPs in the introns can do a variety of things.
  • One function of intron SNPs is that repetitions of long sequences can identify where a gene starts and ends.
  • Another function is that SNPs in these introns say where the exons are and that they should be translated into proteins.
  • But mostly, we don't really know exactly what's happening in much of the introns, or why.
  • Nonetheless, it's pretty uncommon for variations in the SNPs in introns to have a significant impact on gene function: at least 85% of such SNPs are on exons, not introns, even though exons are much much smaller than introns.

  • Next we have huge stretches of SNPs between the genes, called intergenic. Some of the SNPs in intergenic bits can have an impact on nearby gene function, but most of it isn't known to do anything.
  • On the ends of chromosomes we have telomeres, which are sacrificial lambs and don't do anything except provide a protective buffer for the SNPs further down which do do stuff. These telomeres get shorter as we age, at least partially in reaction to oxidative stress.
  • But generally speaking, these intergenic SNPs and SNPs on telomeres aren't impacting genes.

So we can do a few things to determine which SNPs are actually causing issues. First we can ignore the intergenic and telomere SNPs. While there's always a chance that something will be discovered to show an impact, the current state of science says we don't know enough to draw any conclusions at all from those SNPs, and that they're unlikely to be relevant. There's not even a hint of how most of them might potentially have any impact.

Next, we can largely ignore SNPs on introns. Some have an impact, but thus far I've never seen any research showing them to have more than a small impact. It might be a statistically significant effect, but based on the effect sizes found in research these are usually up- or down-regulating a gene by 5% or less. It's small beans - they might add up, but one or two isn't doing much, and might even be completely offset by other mutations on the same gene: +5% from one, and -5% from another?

And then we can take a look at SNPs in exons, which is where nearly all of the real action is happening. Some of these SNPs in exons don't result in any change at all, but most do result in a change. If there's research, we can read it, and it will usually exactly how much gene function is reduced as a result of these mutations. Hence we know that MTHFR C677T +/- reduces MTHFR function to about 65% of normal, and is associated with an increase of birth defects if the mother doesn't compensate for it. Then we can compensate for it ourselves by eating more vegetables or taking a small dose of methylfolate, especially during pregnancy.

If there isn't research yet for missense mutations in exons, we might be able to predict the impact based on various highly complicated models, or by making simpler comparisons between the alternative amino acids.

But there are a few things we can't do. We can't assume that a lot of ME patients having a mutation is relevant to developing or perpetuating ME/SEID. For example, in the 31 ME patients I have data for, the average reduction in MTHFR function across all MTHFR SNPs tested by 23andMe is -31%. But for the 31 controls, it's an average of -32%. Additionally, no published research has demonstrated an excess of genetic or functional deficiency in MTHFR or active folates in ME/SEID patients. So while we can see where our functioning isn't optimal, by reading the research, we can also see that this dysfunction is pretty typical, again by reading the research.

Another thing we absolutely cannot ever do is assume that every SNP on a gene is relevant. There is a ton of data proving that a great many of those SNPs have no impact - as far as anyone can tell thus far, they are harmless background noise. There is also research showing that some are relevant, and that is what should be used to determine which SNPs might be causing us problems. Otherwise we are reduced to guessing.

And with 25,000 genes, and 3 billion SNPs, it is simply impossible for anyone to guess intelligently, or to draw any conclusions for treatments based on those guesses. If we take the absurd position of assuming that every SNP has a risky or +/+ version, then the result is that every human being has millions of "bad" SNPs. This is completely illogical, and an inexcusable abuse of the actual science or anything resembling statistics.

Thus we can look at our SNPs, see where they are on genes, and see if there's research about how those specific SNPs impact gene function. If they do impact function, we can determine if that can happen in a harmful manner, again by reading the research, or use it to direct further lab testing if it could be having a pathogenic impact.

Unless funds are unlimited, it simply isn't feasible to test every "treatment" for every SNP variation on every gene. And if taking that approach, there's no need to take SNPs into account in the first place, since that approach necessarily results in every gene being presumed broken without any actual supporting evidence. In which case, the SNPs themselves become completely irrelevant to the treatments being tried.

Hence if someone does want to use SNPs to find problems, they need to be used scientifically based upon the existing research, and not randomly. This shot-gun approach is actually undermining and even mocking the use of SNPs in finding actual problems. If we're going to use them, with or without the support of our doctors, we should be doing it correctly. Especially if doing it incorrectly is going to result in even less cooperation from our doctors.

And finally, we cannot make arbitrary connections between SNPs and effective treatments. Making a connection with any reliability requires using hundreds or thousands of patients. Otherwise we are just guessing that this one SNP means that this one treatment helps, even though there are billions of SNPs and thousands of potential treatments. Why that SNP and not the one next to it? Why not one on a completely different gene? Statistically we simply cannot make that connection reliably. This doesn't mean that a treatment doesn't or won't help, but it's important to not choose a random SNP to connect to a treatment - people might be overconfident that a treatment might help them, or people might think they shouldn't try a potentially helpful treatment because they don't have the "right" SNP. We have to be very critical and honest about what we actually know, and what we merely suspect.
 
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Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,094
The third option is to try understand the actual science
About what? I don't even know exaclty what I am aiming at. Just trying to work on my microbiome and optimize methylation
Hence we know that MTHFR C677T +/- reduces MTHFR function to about 65% of normal, and is associated with an increase of birth defects if the mother doesn't compensate for it. Then we can compensate for it ourselves by eating more vegetables or taking a small dose of methylfolate, especially during pregnancy.
I have no intention of being born again or give birth :D (sorry couldn't resist an easy joke), but it doesn't mean I don't need the nutrients even if I can't tolerate all the folate foods.
We can't assume that a lot of ME patients having a mutation is relevant to developing or perpetuating ME/SEID.
This links to the first quote above - I don't think there is a known cause to be addressed
Another thing we absolutely cannot ever do is assume that every SNP on a gene is relevant.
Hence if someone does want to use SNPs to find problems, they need to be used scientifically based upon the existing research, and not randomly.
I am not blaming any SNPs, just trying to optimize methylation (sensu Rich van K) based on my weak spots, and my husband's, and it is working! I now can recognize how the chemical exposures I have had in my life have interacted with the CYP SNPs and the consequences I experienced in my health.
And finally, we cannot make arbitrary connections between SNPs and effective treatments. Making a connection with any reliability requires using hundreds or thousands of patients.
I am not going to sit and wait for that to happen. DH ang I are already making progress, so, respectfully, what you are saying makes no practical sense to me.

I actually find the people who have publicly shared their lines of treatment to be very generous, since I don't even need to buy their supplements to get better (Rich van K, Ben Lynch, Amy Yasko) and can adapt the supplementation to my needs by myself, without sticking to a rigid protocol.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I now can recognize how the chemical exposures I have had in my life have interacted with the CYP SNPs and the consequences I experienced in my health.
No, you can't. Mostly you can only guess. And with millions of potentially relevant SNPs to choose from, it's a very blind guess.
I am not going to sit and wait for that to happen. DH ang I are already making progress, so, respectfully, what you are saying makes no practical sense to me.
I'm saying that "having" a SNP, and having a symptom which responds to a treatment are two completely independent occurrences until research proves otherwise. There are many ways a treatment might help, but that can't be claimed to be due to a SNP until it's been scientifically proven that the SNP is at least having an impact.

In some cases there is research showing that the SNP has an impact. In many cases, there is research showing that the SNP has no impact. In most cases, there is no research into the SNP at all. It is illogical to pinpoint a certain SNP (or even gene) as causing a symptom, simply because someone has arbitrarily declared it to be "+/+", in the absences of any research or other solid basis, such as protein modeling.

I am not saying people shouldn't try things. But I'm saying many of those things actually don't have any basis in their genetic data. Essentially they are trying random treatments, or treatments based upon their symptoms, and then they are taking a big black marker and drawing connections between those symptoms/treatments and some completely random SNPs. It doesn't work that way, and it can't work that way.

This is why being homozygous for 10 histamine SNPs doesn't mean anything. There's no research which has been mentioned showing any connection between those SNPs and the functioning of the gene which they are on. There also isn't much point in comparing data on the forum to try to figure out which be the "bad" version, especially if making the incorrect assumption that every SNP has a bad version. That's just back to guessing and to drawing random connections.

Unless there is research showing a connection between a SNP and gene function, it's impossible to rationally draw conclusions about most of those SNPs. The one exception might be if the responding ME or histamine patients have an excess of a rare allele for a SNP. But since no one is even talking about minor allele frequency (MAF), it just looks like a group getting together to play "let's pretend" and pick some random SNPs (out of billions) to blame.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,094
@Valentijn

I am successfully following clinical evidence and personal experience exchanges.

I will never convince you it works and you will never convince me it doesn't.

We should aim our precious energy elsewhere.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,094
I now can recognize how the chemical exposures I have had in my life have interacted with the CYP SNPs and the consequences I experienced in my health.
No, you can't. Mostly you can only guess. And with millions of potentially relevant SNPs to choose from, it's a very blind guess.
For the record, CYP-chemical interactions and +/+, +/-, -/- SNP status seem to be backed by research:
http://medicine.iupui.edu/clinpharm/ddis/main-table
 
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Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
For the record, CYP-chemical interactions and +/+, +/-, -/- SNP status seem to be backed by research:
http://medicine.iupui.edu/clinpharm/ddis/main-table
Well, that's just a big list. Most of the drugs listed don't link to research, and when there is a link there usually isn't even an abstract online, much less an article.

For the ones which do have articles, I'm seeing discussions of protein function in relation to drugs, but not of individual SNPs. So I'm not sure how you could possibly use that site to determine which SNPs have a +/+ version.
 

Fogbuster

Senior Member
Messages
269
23andMe says it is ABP1.

Hey guys, I have discovered that I have 7 snps on gene AB21, of which one of them is "rs10156191".

I have suspected for a while that I have a histamine related disorder being Mast Cell Activation Disorder and at the very least histamine intolerance that has been causing my huge array of symptoms and bizarre functional symptoms.

I "react" (a stress response goes off to) literally everything I eat; all foods, spices, cigarettes, alcohol, hair sprays, any (stressor) exercise more than walking and of course stress whilst also having severe cognitive dysfunction. The list could go on in regards to symptoms and things I react to, but I won't bore you with that.

What I would like to know is does this suggest that it's likely I have a histamine based disorder based on these genetic findings? Thanks
 

Fogbuster

Senior Member
Messages
269
ABP1 150553605 rs10156191 C or T
CT

tDUzbsKxhbx38E4erKnZ5A_triad-right.gif
ABP1 150554157 i6025303 A or G
GG

tDUzbsKxhbx38E4erKnZ5A_triad-right.gif
ABP1 150554553 rs1049742 C or T
CC

tDUzbsKxhbx38E4erKnZ5A_triad-right.gif
ABP1 150554798 i6056406 C or T
CC

tDUzbsKxhbx38E4erKnZ5A_triad-right.gif
ABP1 150554995 rs45558339 A or G
GG

tDUzbsKxhbx38E4erKnZ5A_triad-right.gif
ABP1 150557665 rs1049793 C or G
CC

tDUzbsKxhbx38E4erKnZ5A_triad-right.gif
ABP1 150557707 rs35070995 A or C
AA
 

Fogbuster

Senior Member
Messages
269
COMT V158M rs4680 AA +/+
COMT H62H rs4633 TT +/+
COMT P199P rs769224 GG -/-
VDR Bsm rs1544410 TT +/+
VDR Taq rs731236 AG +/-
MAO A R297R rs6323 G -/-
ACAT1-02 rs3741049 GG -/-
MTHFR C677T rs1801133 GG -/-
MTHFR 03 P39P rs2066470 GG -/-
MTHFR A1298C rs1801131 GT +/-
MTR A2756G rs1805087 AG +/-
MTRR A66G rs1801394 AA -/-
MTRR H595Y not found n/a not genotyped
MTRR K350A rs162036 AA -/-
MTRR R415T not found n/a not genotyped
MTRR A664A rs1802059 AG +/-
BHMT-02 rs567754 TT +/+
BHMT-04 not found n/a not genotyped
BHMT-08 rs651852 TT +/+
AHCY-01 rs819147 TT -/-
AHCY-02 not found n/a not genotyped
AHCY-19 rs819171 TT -/-
CBS C699T rs234706 AG +/-
CBS A360A rs1801181 GG -/-
CBS N212N not found n/a not gen




Yeah, so this doesn't look good. So I have 5 homozygous mutations, I only seem to have a heterozygous mutation on CBS C699T. CBS mutations are involved in Mast Cell Activation disorder. Is that hetero CBS mutation indicative enough to suggest I quite possibly have Mast cell issues?
 
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Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
Yeah, so this doesn't look good. So I have 5 homozygous mutations, I only seem to have a heterozygous mutation on CBS C699T. CBS mutations are involved in Mast Cell Activation disorder. Is that hetero CBS mutation indicative enough to suggest I quite possibly have Mast cell issues?
The 5 SNPs which you're homozygous for are pretty harmless ones, and in the case of BHMT-08 you have the beneficial version. COMT mutations can have a big impact, but are extremely common and normal variations.

VDR Bsm and Taq are a bit interesting because they are not identical in your case. Usually they are. There might be some increased issues with Vitamin D receptors due to that, but it's pretty speculative.

You also don't appear to have any MTRR or MTHFR issues based on that data.

CBS C699T + is also the more beneficial version, is very mild, and doesn't have any histamine connection as far as I know.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
@Fogbuster - Regarding the ABP1 (AOC1) SNPs, you have the most common version of each. It's extremely unlikely that any of them are causing you significant problems.
 

Fogbuster

Senior Member
Messages
269
Thankyou @Valentijn so much for your comprehensive response. It's really very much appreciated.

I have to say despite the generally overall good news (at least compared to what I was thinking) about my mutations, I am left dissapointed.

I have nothing really to explain my issues. I think I might start a thread as I am just so desperate. What makes my case so frustrating is I don't have chronic fatigue or many noticeable symptoms, nothing has come up in the tests to look for chronic disease, so the fact that I claim I have such severe cognitive symptoms and "react" to pretty much any substance I ingest is just a red flag to most people. It's 4 1/2 years I've had this, it's just off the scale of how absurd my situation has become.