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The Fight is on...Imperial College XMRV Study

starryeyes

Senior Member
Messages
1,558
Location
Bay Area, California
I appreciate all the views here. Parvofighter, once again, you make excellent points in a super intelligent way.
I really appreciate it and Koan and Kati, I totally agree with what you're saying.
 

Doogle

Senior Member
Messages
200
For example, if Wessely had his own commercial lab run by his first author testing for what's in his own paper, would anyone tolerate that?

I personally believe that Wessely running tests on patients using his own patient definitions, then manipulating data and publishing results to bolster the CBT programs he sets up in the UK and profits from personally, (he doesn't give the profits away for more research either) is much worse than the WPI VIP connection, and shouldn't be tolerated.
 

starryeyes

Senior Member
Messages
1,558
Location
Bay Area, California
CF and others who have issues with Mikovits--

I have to wonder why anyone here would keep posting that Blog and then insisting we read it. Is that really what you all think of Mikovits?
Did you want us to see that? Did it bother you when I said I'd stopped after the first few lines? Is that why one of you posted it again and stated that we should read all of it? I'm just thinking here... something's not right!
 

starryeyes

Senior Member
Messages
1,558
Location
Bay Area, California
CF – then why would you and others here post that particular blog when you yourself say here that there are other virologist bloggers who “express similar sentiments about loss of credibility in a more civil manner.” in two posts above this one?

Why would you and others post the blog that contains such disgusting, abusive terminology about Mikovits again and again here and encourage us to read the whole thing?
 

starryeyes

Senior Member
Messages
1,558
Location
Bay Area, California
CF wrote: Actually when I reposted the link, for some reason I thought the blog ended a third of the way down, before it got really profane. Actually, if I had seen that I might not have reposted the link.

CF - well I'm glad to hear that! I just find your viewpoint very difficult to understand. A page or two back you wrote, "We should be clamoring WPI not to come off as idiot frauds."

Idiot frauds? So that's how you think the WPI looks?

ETA: No, CF wasn't saying this. I read it wrong. Sorry CF.
 

starryeyes

Senior Member
Messages
1,558
Location
Bay Area, California
Actually, my comment about self-sabotage was about patients demanding these types of press releases.

Maybe that is just the problem, they are the hero/ines for PWC when they need to be the heros of science. This stuff smacks of how quacks write books to speak directly to PWCs so that they can skip around the scientific channels.

And let me just say that in terms of support, I have supported WPI beyond what they have so far yet to prove. I donated 1/3 of my 2009 income to WPI, and 1/3 of the Cure 4 ME Cause donations came directly from me or my fundraising, plus I donated a comparable amount outside of the FaceBook Cause directly through their PayPal button. And yet I wonder why I am donating 1/3 of my income when I don't even make enough for food and housing, and why as 1 person, 1/3 of the Cause came from me. I risk my own credibility with my own friends and network when I have solicited donations from them, as about 1/3 of them have PhDs in science, 1/3 have MS degrees in science, 1/10 are MDs, etc.

Damaging credibility is not supporting us.

CF - I think we were both posting around the same time when you wrote this so I missed it before. I see that you have a real vested interest in the WPI.

I'm glad I asked you to clarify where you're coming from because I think I was beginning to draw the wrong conclusions about that. I realize that there is a lot at stake and we all have different viewpoints on how things should be said and done. I'm sorry I misunderstood you.
 

kurt

Senior Member
Messages
1,186
Location
USA
No reputable researcher, scientist or grad student makes those types of statements in the linked article. I don't give that person a second of my time because they obviously are so enraged that they are not thinking clearly. Also people who rant like that are not likely to become connected in the 'real world', who would hire a loose cannon like that? So why bother with reading what they say? The web is full of crazy people and I don't have time to give them, life is too short. Also, I don't think the forum is well served by links like that. There is simply nothing to learn there about ME/CFS.
 

Mithriel

Senior Member
Messages
690
Location
Scotland
I know diagnostic virologists and PCR researchers. They are not terribly interested in XMRV yet. It is important to us but to them it is something of interest which may become important in the future.

The blog you talk about and others are just reflecting the general prejudice there is about CFS. I don't think it is important. Profane rantings are not scientific and lack credibility.


XMRV research will continue in other fields with or without CFS research and we only need the WPI and other ME and CFS charities to be concerned with us. If the NCI gets results or finds a drug for prostrate cancer then it will be relevant to us and the WPI will make sure any research is extended to us.

University researchers often set up companies to sell tests, it is commonplace, and it is only being used as a criticism because they will use any weapon against us.

Historically, ME was taken over by the weasels because the experts were polite, good people who played by the rules. It is a very dirty fight. The tone of this recent one was set by the Imperial study when they implied contamination in the WPI study.

If Mikovitzs has overreacted it is that, a reaction. Unfortunately the truth is that a conspiracy DOES exist.


I think the scientific world is mostly indifferent to what is happening and those who do notice it are probably enjoying watching things unfold.

Mithriel
 
T

thefreeprisoner

Guest
Regarding the attacks on WPI that they are just flogging a commercial test, so they have competing interests...

I read (oh how I wish I could remember where) Judy Mikovits saying that they only arranged for the commercial test to happen because they got so much demand from around the world for a test and wanted to help the desperate people who had pleaded with them for early testing.

Yes, the test costs $650 and that seems expensive - but I run a small business which costs $1,500 a day to keep afloat, and my business doesn't use any type of what you would call cutting-edge equipment like the WPI labs. I have 4 full-time and 2 part-time staff, about the same as WPI and likely lower salaries too. I doubt they are making any money at all on those tests, given how long they take to run.
 

flybro

Senior Member
Messages
706
Location
pluto
Its a good job I'm not Judy Mivokitch's,

because I would've poked the other guys in the eye with a javelin.

Twice, once for the insult, and once for the patients.
 

parvofighter

Senior Member
Messages
440
Location
Canada
You're right!

Hi again charityfundraiser,

You're absolutely right about this:Retro smile::

Yeah, actually when I said the scientists (student or not) opinions are more important than patients' opinions, I didn't mean necessarily who is right, but the fact is scientists' opinions carry more weight and action.

And this is totally true historically and well - yeah - today. The "establishment" still gives credence to folks with the right initials behind their name. But there are dents in the armor.

The age of Patient Empowerment
We're really in a renaissance period now though in medicine and science ... the internet has enormously empowered us patients, by giving us access to the same scientific papers that our doctors are (often not) reading. Good advocacy organizations combine astute patient insights with new clinical developments. I know of one organization in particular in Canada which works like the Chinese Triads. It's an astonishing synergy of biotech researchers working hand in hand with geneticists, working hand in hand with patients with rare diseases. It's actually the patients who drive the research agenda, because they are able to identify the key aspects of the "natural history of the disease" (for us, I'd wager Post-Exertional Malaise) that need therapeutic targets.

All this to say that thankfully there are signs that some physicians/researchers/biotechs DO recognize the power and insight of patients in driving relevant, impactful translational medicine.

But still... patients have no credibility (usually)!
But you're right - I can't count the number of times that I went into a specialist's office, only to have my assembled Parvovirus B19 research summaries derided. As a patient, I'm a nobody - even if I know the PVB19 research better than most Canadian physicians - and even if used to work in allied health!

A cool article in Psychology Today - needs rebuttal!
Gotta search out those non-ego-centred physicians - like Peterson. As an aside a recent edition of, Psychology Today had a rant article called, "Homo Consumericus: I'm not a Doctor, But..., available at: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200911/homo-consumericus-i-m-not-doctor . The writer was outraged that common people - or worse, celebrities - participate in science and medical debates.

" Most celebrities have at best graduated from high school. Hence, it is quite extraordinary that they should feel sufficiently knowledgeable to contribute to complex issues in physics, psychiatry, medicine, and biology. Here is a thought: Entertain us at the movies and in concert halls,
and leave the science for scientists."


Yea, but what about real estate developers with profoundly ill daughters who take matters into their own hands? And who may well turn out to be right - and turn the "common knowledge" of experts-with-the -right-initials on its head? Interestingly, in ranting against the arrogance of celebrities in taking up medical causes, the author of the Psych Today article fell into the same trap. Blind arrogance that mere serfs - albeit pretty and handsome ones (i.e. celebrities) - are sometimes more right than the medical establishment. Who'd a thunk?

Thank HEAVENS for real estate developers and their families!:victory:
 

Nina

Senior Member
Messages
222
Historically, ME was taken over by the weasels because the experts were polite, good people who played by the rules. It is a very dirty fight. The tone of this recent one was set by the Imperial study when they implied contamination in the WPI study.

Exactly my thoughts, Mithriel!
 

flex

Senior Member
Messages
304
Location
London area
Its a good job I'm not Judy Mivokitch's,

because I would've poked the other guys in the eye with a javelin.

Twice, once for the insult, and once for the patients.


The funniest thing on this thread. Particularly after the ding dong over the last twenty posts!!
 

natasa778

Senior Member
Messages
1,774
Another excellent post by parvofighter - the one of few pages back was abs brilliant. (insert applause smiley)

Just a small thing to add here: Lorenzo's oil!
 

flex

Senior Member
Messages
304
Location
London area
It strikes me that we need to get the psychiatric lobby to change their minds.

So this raises the following question.

Q: how do you get a psychiatrist to change his mind?

A: smash a chisel threw his eye socket into his brain performing a frontol lobotomy.

The phrase "a taste of your own medicine" springs to mind!
 

Dx Revision Watch

Suzy Chapman Owner of Dx Revision Watch
Messages
3,061
Location
UK
Heads up - McClure in Science, tomorrow (unconfirmed)

No second source for confirmation yet, so don't broadcast until we have confirmation, but it has been reported that Science magazine will publish Dr Myra McClure tomorrow.