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The effect of folate "effectiveness" on cobalamin serum half life

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Freddd, Jul 14, 2014.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    These are based on thousands of injections, sublingual and large oral doses and the visible variations in coloration dependent upon folate effectiveness.

    ARBITRARY SCALE – excretion of cobalamins influenced by folate effectiveness state based on observed cobalamin excretion in urine at 30mg/day injected in 3 doses.

    1. 128 - Methyltrap, Glutathione – extreme levels of cobalamin seen in urine, up to maximum excretion rate if sufficient cobalamin available

    2. 64 - Partial methylation block, Folinic acid – noticeably increased levels of cobalamin in urine

    3. 32 - Partial methylation block, Folic acid – noticeably increased levels of cobalamin in urine

    4. 16 – Partial methylation block, Folic acid with 400mcg of l-methylfolate, noticeable levels of cobalamin in urine

    5. 8 - Partial methylation block, Folic acid with 16 mg of l-methylfolate, noticeable levels of cobalamin in urine

    6. 4 - Partial methylation block, L-methylfolate, some donut hole deficiency, minor visible amounts of cobalamin

    7. 1 - Adequate l-methylfolate, basically no visible cobalamin with dose sizes that usually produce visible cobalamin under all other circumstances.
    In addition, there is a maximum amount of cobalamin that can be excreted. Based on ultra high dose such as the 5 grams or more as is used for cyanide poisoning as well as 500mg + infusions in private trials and some other high dose (180mg injections) trials with puzzling results.. The maximum execrable cobalamin by kidney appears to be in the range of 5 to 20mg per hour and the results are no longer puzzling.

    So now I know why Country Life Dibencozide caused so much more visible cobalamin than does Anabol Natural; folic acid.
     
    sregan likes this.
  2. Coolie

    Coolie

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    I don't really understand much of your post. Should I worry about excreting in urine B12 If taking Methyl 5000ug daily?
     
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Coolie,

    At 5000 mcg of sublingual daily it might be at the edge of visibility at a couple of hours, once. It likely isn't visible. If it is there might be a slight shift towards orange. With a fresh dose of b12 serum half life is perhaps 20 minutes to 2 hours. Only glutathione might cause a dump of most of the b12 in the body and get it up towards pink or light red or orange depending upon folate status at that dose, and then only once unless you take larger doses. What this is, is a new description of what has occurred or could occur. It is most of use for people on high doses. For me it is an indicator that I am going into methyl block with paradoxical folate deficiency. It is merely a consideration as a clue, not to worry.
     
  4. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    @Freddd, i'm using 10mg hydroxocobalamin I.M. twice weekly. Usually after an hour or so my urine turns reddish to pink, i've been told that's quite normal. But you say excretion at such rate means methyl trap or methylation block?
    I take 5mcg methylfolate on the injection days, so i should take more?

    I've heterozygous SNP's for MTHFR C677T, A1298C and 03P39P

    Homocysteine was 9.7 last week.
     
  5. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    A 10mg injection can come out slowly over 3-6 hours starting in an hour or 75% in an hour depending upon folate status. You know an MeCbl injection could be 1000 times more effective than hydroxycbl? As HyCbl can induce methyltrap all by itself for 6 to 48 hours it can maximize the excretion of HyCbl. It is normal, but MeCbl with L-methylfolate MIGHT NOT BE VISIBLE AT ALL. L-methylfolate does not fix methyltrap. Methyltrap is a lack of MeCbl when it is needed which forces l-methylfolate out of the cell. If it is partial methylation block, not as severe, then L-methylfolate can help and what you will see then is donut hole paradoxical folate deficiency which is to say the same folate deficiency symptoms. Even with what you are doing you see a range. It takes about 2 mg to make the urine look "pinkish" in the toilet, 2-4 times as much MeCbl to make it reddish of sufficient density that it sinks.

    I suspect you mean 5mg of methylfolate instead of 5 mcg. To have CNS healing or maintenance I take 10mg 3 times a day subcutaneously, protecting it from light because that converts it to worthless HyCbl which causes cell formation failure in less than 24 hours for me. Good luck.
    Fred
     
  6. Thinktank

    Thinktank Senior Member

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    @Freddd, i'm using high dose intramusculair HyCbl. mainly for it's Nitric oxide-scavenging and brain detoxifying properties. I'm not sure how much of it gets converted to methylcobalamin so i'm planning to add that separately together with adenosylcobalamin after i have received the results of my methylation panel.

    I didn't know hydroxy can create a methyltrap. In that case i might try some MeCbl soon.

    Yes, 5mg methylfolate. I guess you mean sublingual instead of subcutaneous?
     
  7. Helen

    Helen Senior Member

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    Hi,

    Good to hear @Freddd that you are getting better.

    I find this article written by a very experienced "B12- doctor " interesting. During the years I have heard several explanations about the colour of the urine after B12-injections.

    Dr. Neubrander tells that the colour of the urine; how reddish it is, depends on the time it takes for the substances to be released from the fatty tissues (where the B12 should be injected according to him). A good injection technique should prolonge the time it takes to release the B12 wich is good for the uptake. If I got it right.

    http://www.drneubrander.com/Files/Methyl-B12; Myth, Masterpiece, or Miracle.pdf
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2014
  8. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    L-methylfolate does not fix methyltrap. Methyltrap is a lack of MeCbl when it is needed which forces l-methylfolate out of the cell. If it is partial methylation block, not as severe, then L-methylfolate can help

    @Freddd: If the symptoms are the same, how do you figure out whether you should take more B12 or folate?
     
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    If one is taking 1mg or more of MeCbl without anything that can interfere or compete, then it usually isn't lack of B12 in the body. But glutathione for instance can flush all the active b12 from the body in hours, causing symptoms onset in hours and getting worse for days. The Deplin studies found that the 15mg and 30mg doses most effective. It takes me about 15mg a day in 3 doses to keep insufficiency (partial methylation block). Usually methyltrap hits harder faster. When I was working it out for myself I found the dose of b12 I needed. That hasn't changed in 6 years. All the fluctuations are mostly due to folate variations that happen about every two weeks since I was a child. I'm finally getting them leveled out. If you take both MeCbl and l-methylfolate you won't go wrong for either situation. Then as one adjusts the daily dose of mfolate to achieve a steadiness of healing in all layers as described elsewhere. Most of what I have found the past 6 years are the many things that can cause folate insufficiency.

    The symptoms are paradoxical and can change suddenly.
     
    sregan likes this.
  10. helen1

    helen1 Senior Member

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    @Freddd: Thanks... I think:) Are you saying that if you're taking enough mB12 i.e. 1 mg or more (or are you saying 15 & 30 mg is better?) that it's unlikely you need to take more? That we should focus on mfolate dose adjustment?

    Such an important topic, one I've been struggling with for months; thanks for this.
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Helen,

    I look at 1 mg as a good holding place while getting everything else in balance, especially the potassium and folate, the zinc and LCF and so on. If all those don't get things going well then SAM-e, then add TMG or if it is the ATP branch and AdoCbl/LCG don't do the trick then D-ribose, biotin, pantithine and a few other things can give more support in that direction. Then it's go back and increase MeCbl and then balance all over again, but it gets easier as there are fewer and fewer things changing. The 15 and 30mg was referring to the Deplin (Metafolin) trials. They also did 7.5mg and found that effective for very few people compared to 15 and 30mg a day. MeCbl is a different story and procedure, but still a titrate to effect.
     
    Little Bluestem likes this.

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