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The Awesome Foursome + Phosphatidyl serine

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by topaz, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Angela, just curious...do you drink coffee? Two cups caffeinated coffee raises your cortisol 33%. I do drink 2 cups/day. PS did not seem to effect me and since I take so many pills I never refilled that one. I see it in the cycle but I thought I must get it in diet or something. I did never investigate that to be sure. It does bug me that that is in the methyl cycle and I do not understand how it works, like why it would not seem to affect me. Maybe it affects how much taurine I make - I do make a lot of taurine. Cant feel it though.

    What genetic defects does your daughter have? I never heard of anyone recovering from autism. How many pills does she take? I am at 40. Can she do it in less?

    Rydra
     
  2. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    Just curious - do you or L'Engle have high blood pressure? Maybe you only need CoQ10 (ubiquinol) if you cant make BH4 in sufficient quantities. I'm afraid I cant tell you which genes make or use up BH4. I think the 1298 polymorphism is involved but I forget the rest of them.
     
  3. rydra_wong

    rydra_wong Guest

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    What test was run to detect raised copper? Raised SERUM copper does not mean you have too much copper - it means you have inflammation or possibly cancer. The blood steals copper from critical places in the body in many conditions, such as inflammation, infection, use of OTC drugs like laxatives, hormone swings, etc. That si why it is called an "acute phase reactant". So raised serum copper does not say ANYTHING about copper status in the body. If you already know you have inflammation, it has told you nothing.

    Rydra
     
  4. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    HI Madie,

    If you look at the label blowup on the vitacost it is l-carntine tartrate. The same is true on Iherb despite the same producrt number of the former fumarate.
     
  5. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    I'm not sure why we're getting different results, but I just searched again, and found the Jarrow fumarate on both sites.
     
  6. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    That is sloppyness. I called iherb and verified that the l-carnitine fumarate is out of stock and discontinued, replaced by the tartrate with the same stock number. That is probably a bad choice on the part of Jarrow and causes confusion. Whatever you think you order you will receive the tartrate. I know becasue I did.
     
  7. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

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    No, I have 4 bottles of Fumarate in front of me, sent to me on January 24, 2012 from iherb. I've triple-checked each label, and it's the right stuff.

    iherb sounds pretty disorganized.
     
  8. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    Freddd,

    Could you clarify this for me? It may just be brain fog, but I'm not processing it fully. I've just started taking acetyl-l-carnitine and am feeling neurologically overloaded, overstimulated, and very restless. Could lowering my adb12 help? Or is this not likely relevant to what I'm experiencing? Or totally unrelated to your statement? :) Thanks for the patience, and your help.

    Topaz - I've been taking magnesium and CoQ10 in large quantities for around nine months, along with a pile of other supplements. I still have a lot of limitations, but am eons better than I was then (am still bed bound, but that's probably just a testament to how truly awful things were at the start). Hard to tell which things are responsible, or how much is just my natural rate of improvement. Very Bad Things seem to happen when I try skipping one, though, so I'm not going to be giving them up any time soon. :)

    D-Ribose made me feel really bad very consistently, in a similar way to when my blood sugar is possibly low, so I had to stop experimenting with it. I've since heard it can maybe drop blood sugar for some people. I take Lecithin daily, but not PS specifically. Don't know that I've noticed any particular response. Acetyl-L-Carnitine, as mentioned above, seems to be bringing back some overstimulation problems I thought I had resolved. The pills I'm taking also have Calcium Pyruvate in them, though (which is also new for me), so I can't yet blame the carnitine for sure.
     
  9. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    When I recently posted about preferred brands, Freddd said he used Jarrow Fumarate but that Doctors Best contains the same patented form of fumarate.

    In a separate thread ryda+wong said:

    Here is what Velha said about preferred brands of carnitine. She went from being unable to work to getting a job and being totally fine in 6 or 8 months. This is from her:

    I had to take 2.5 g of carnitine fumarate (patented by sigma tau) very critical to take this form TWO times a day on an empty stomach - being sensitive I could tell the difference!! Doctor's Best and Jarrow both use this patented version and are the only two brands I will use. I tried many forms (carnitine tartrate, acetyl-carnitine and many brands because this stuff costs so much so I know which work and which don't - - a vitacost bottle that supposedly contained same product also, but it DID NOT contain it or had so much less than it said it did that it was a total waste of money! It's a shame these things can be so variable as people may make conclusions about certain supplements when really it was the manufacturer not the particular supplement ...


    As my Doctors Best contains this patented form of fumarate, I was pleased that Id bought the right one and the bottom line for you, if you cant get the Jarrow, get Doctors Best which contains the SAME PATENTED form of fumarte.
     
  10. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Rich still includes PS Complex in his protocol. Rationale (from his 3 part lecture): cortisol can rise in early stages of ME and similarly may fall later in the condition. PS can decrease cortisol in those whose levels are already low but you probably shouldnt assume you are low without testing or presnece of symtpoms. In this lecture Rich said that phosytidyl Choline (vs serine) was important and based on this, I am going to try the complex (which contains both) as opposed to straight PS. Btw, I have high cortisol.

    Hope this helps
     
  11. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Madie,

    I complained when the tartrate was shipped to me. I haven't reordered since then, running on reserves. They did say at the time that they would try to correct the problem and had told me it was a substitution by Jarrow. Maybe that got remedied.
     
  12. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Sparrow,

    The l-carnitne fumarate specifcally aids the transport of fats for the krebs cycle. I don't know the effects of l-acetyl carnitine which had zero effect for me. There are mitochondria in the neurons. These need the adb12 and l-carnitine fumarate and generally help remove brainfog. This is in a different way form the mb12 whcih turns the nerve volume up. When the two get out of balance with too much adb12 compared to mb12, irritability and aggression tend to happen. More mb12 also helps agains brainfog. Lowering the carnitine might be more help in this overdriven feeling. Again not sure about the one you are using. However, adding TMG often takes the edge off.
     
  13. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    Hi, Freddd

    In many of your posts you recommend specifically L-Carnitine Fumarate, but I don't understand what the difference is between L-Carnitine Fumarate and L-Carnitine Tartrate.

    I think I also have high cortisol (my test a few years ago said it was both high and low which I don't understand) so I'm taking Phosphatidyl Serine too, but Rich has revised his protocol as of August 2012 and now recommends Lecithin instead:

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ation-protocol-august-25-2012-revision.19050/

     
  14. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Lotus97 likes this.
  15. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    This is interesting. I didn't realize carnitine and coenzyme q10 were methyl donors. After my tooth cracked a few months ago (most likely exposing me to mercury and creating a partial block of my methylation cycle) I became very sensitive to a lot of my supplements which resulted in overstimulation and heart palpitations. I realized that among the supplements which caused side effects were those recommended for methylation, but also some others including Co q 10 and L-carnitine/Acetyl L Carnitine. I wonder if I should (at least temporarily) back off other things I'm taking that increase ATP such as Vitamin C, D-Ribose, Magnesium Malate, and Citrulline Malate. I've already decided to stop taking Folinic Acid and lower my dose of B12. I just learned that the effects of supplements used for methylation can build up over a couple of days so some side effects (overstimulation or otherwise) can take a few days to manifest.
     
  16. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    L carnitine fumare isn't but acetyl carnitine is a methyl. Co q 10, active folate, active b12, melatonin, curcumin, green tea, theanine, caffeine, & phosphatidylserine all act as methyl donors. But thats the short list.
     
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  17. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Lotus97:

    Acetyl-carnitine also goes right into the brain.

    Folinic acid is highly absorbable in the CNS and buildup over time in there. If you discontinue it may take a few days to feel the full effect (it did for me when I reduced it due to overmethylation).

    Greenshots is right that the list she posted are all methyl donors.

    But you also have to ask yourself "where" they are donating.

    SAMe is an almost universal methyl donor that shows up in a bazillion reactions. Choline is also pretty ubiquitous.

    PS is also a methyl donor but generally will stimulate the BHMT pathway like TMG unless you over do it (beware its cortisol lowering effects though). Melatonin is a methyl donor but does it to turn off signaling processes as a neurotransmitter to signal sleep. You would have to likely saturate high doses for it to contribute to over-methylation.

    Theanine on the other hand can donate methyls in such a way that some people will eventually develop rebound norepinephrine which can make the initial calming effects not worth it. Tolerance with theanine is also a possibility.

    Caffeine has far reaching effects on glutamate transport that are FAR more impacting than its status as a methyl donor.

    CoQ10 could certainly be a factor considering people often take huge amounts of it nowadays.

    MSM has been more or less debunked in recent years as a methyl donor (though it will affect trans-sulfuration pathway).


    One other thing based on my own experience, if your methylation cycle starts to crank better or you do overdrive, then some of those ATP supplements you mentioned will maybe need to be cut back.

    I take creatine pyruvate, calcium pyruvate, D-ribose, and magnesium malate and I had to step back on some of them when I cranked my methyfolate too high (actually did not change methylfolate dose but stopped taking it with vitamin C and instead waited 20-30minutes --- woo boy that was fun for three days).

    And yes there is a time lag to changes in dosing especially for the big boys in methylation (methylfolate, p5p, and mb12). Folinic acid can take longer to decrease in the CNS and brain.

    Good luck!
     
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  18. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    So if we're already getting results from other supplements that boost ATP does that mean D-Ribose isn't necessary? Or does it have some unique property?
     
  19. dbkita

    dbkita Senior Member

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    Ribose is the essential backbone sugar of RNA just as deoxyribose is of DNA. The bioactive from is ribose-5-phosphate and is made from glucose in the body via the pentose pathway. D-ribose and L-ribose are simply two different enantiomers of the same substrate. When phosphorylated D-ribose becomes D-ribose-phosphate.

    D-ribose can be helpful in stocking the pool to make ATP (an over-simplification), but de novo generation of ATP is a slow process. 99+% of all the ATP in the body at a given moment is recycled (from ADP via the proton pump in the mitochondria). A top athlete may recycle virtually all of his / her ATP in a few seconds. A person with bad CFS might take about a minute or so.

    Did you know your heart for example contains only enough ATP to last 10 beats or so. So everyone has some capacity to recycle ATP or they would not be alive, this even includes people with severe mitochondrial genetic defects. Heck nearly 50% of the ATP produced / recycled is used just to maintain your core body temperature.

    When cells undergo stress from hypoxia they have trouble meeting ATP demands and the cell begins to scavenge ADP in less efficient energy processes. When the ADP turns into AMP (mono-phosphate form) the cell takes action since high levels of AMP, etc. can be toxic to the cell and mean cell death is imminent. So the cell flushes the ATP-generating "pool" constituents. This means the cell has effectively taken itself out of the demand cycle as best it can until things settle down. Then the cell needs to restock its ATP-generating pool but this can take time, especially since the process of making D-ribose via the pentose pathway from glucose via ribokinases is a slow one.

    Thus direct supplementation with D-ribose can be helpful with people who experience hypoxic stress or for even normal people during exercise. It can help support those with slow refresh times for ATP synthesis from the pool by adding some extra support to the process.

    But the other components of the mitochondrial matrix (carnitine, CoQ10, magnesium, etc.) help to deliver the electrons to the proton pump in the electron transport chain and drive the key step of oxidative phosphorylation to recycle ATP from ADP as the mitochondrial wheel turns around and around.

    If you see no difference with D-ribose it is possible that recycling is working well enough that you don't notice the extra little 'jolt'. Or on the hand you are so fatigued from your immune system or whatever reason, you also don't notice the change.

    Personally as things have gotten better I seem to have to reduce my D-ribose from 15 grams a day to 5-10 grams per day depending on my output level at work. If I overdo the D-ribose, I end up with too much heart activity (high stroke volume and slightly elevated pulse, not NE tachycardia) later at night and it can make it harder to settle down.

    For me D-ribose increases acid production in my parietal cells in my stomach, so too much by itself can stimulate some pain in my esophagus, so I have to spread any doses out and take near food. On the other hand small amounts of CoQ10 do the same thing but far more violently. Maybe I am more rate-limited with CoQ10 in my body. Hard to say.
     
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  20. Lotus97

    Lotus97 Senior Member

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    dbkita

    Thanks. Something I'm wondering about myself is that it seems like my body's response to lack of sleep or excessive activity is overstimulation rather than fatigue. If I find this these supplements stimulating maybe it doesn't necessarily mean my body is efficiently recycling ATP? Obviously the best thing I can do is get more rest, but I want to figure out what to do in the short term because it takes me a long time to make up a sleep deficit and recovery from too much activity.

    Also, how does Calcium Pyruvate fit in with all this? I've been eyeing that supplement recently due to it's low cost.

    So magnesium is important for mitochondrial function, but people say it's for relaxation(?) Also, magnesium I was reading recently that the recommend amount is much lower than what people need.
     

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