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The Awesome Foursome + Phosphatidyl serine

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by topaz, Jan 3, 2012.

  1. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Has anyone tried the awesome foursome as a treatment and if so, any positive feedback?

    The awesome foursome comprise: l-carnitine, d-ribose, magnesium and CoQ10. These are essential to the ATP cycle and fundamental to cellular energy metabolism. There is quite a lot of positive promotion of the awesome foursome on the web.

    I note that Freddd recommends lcarnitine (fumarate) and d-ribose as 'possibly critical co-factors'.

    Q: Why is fumarate the preferred form of l carnitine as opposed to acetyl l carnitine?

    Q: Has anyone had any experience with phosphatidylserine? I have heard that this is very beneficial combined with d-ribose.

    I plan to embark on the awsome foursome and will try the phosphatidylserine as I need to get my cortisol down (it is very very high) and that is one of about five supplements that I will order to attempt to get the cortisol (night time) down.

    Thanks in advance for your thoughts and opinions.
  2. Jenny

    Jenny Senior Member

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    Hi topaz

    I've been taking acetyl l carnitine, d-ribose, magnesium and CoQ10 for about 10 months, as well as a lot of other supplements. I've had no improvement. I tried them years ago as well for a shorter time, with no change in symptoms.

    I took phosphatidylserine for over a year as part of Rich van K's simplified methylation protocol. Again, no improvement.

    When I had cortisol tested a few years ago, it was high. Not sure what it is now, but I have the same wired symptoms.

    Hope this is helpful.

    Jenny
  3. maryb

    maryb iherb code TAK122

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    Hi Topaz I'm sure others more knowledgable will be able to explain why, but I tried the acetyl l-carnitine and couldn't tolerate it, but the fumerate I was fine with, it definitely gave me more energy.
  4. ukxmrv

    ukxmrv Senior Member

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    Topaz,

    I've not had any positive reactions to your "awesome 4" apart from the magnesium so they would not be in my top list of supplements.

    P-serine is an intersting one. I've lost low cortisol during the day (most PWCFS have low cortisol in published research) so it leaves me worse off. Heard great things about it from other patients with high cortiosl at night.

    Good luck.
  5. greenshots

    greenshots Senior Member

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    I had a terrible experience with PS! This is also sort of the reason I'm not calling my daughter's doctor right now because she strongly recommended against an adult taking it due to Dr. Vank's findings in CFS. It worked great for my daughter (recovered from autism) so I thought it might help my adrenal issues too but she said it drops cortisol rather than raising it and adults almost always have low levels to begin with. I started trial of it a month ago & tanked big time! The Kreb cycle support seems reasonable as long as you can tolerate methyl donors like carnitine & Co q 10 but I know that some of the kid's with the COMT defect go nutso with too many so maybe just start them at tiny doses or something.

    Good luck!
    Angela
    Lotus97 likes this.
  6. anne_likes_red

    anne_likes_red Senior Member

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    I haven't seen them called the awesome foursome before but YES! (X4!)

    I use ubiquinol (coq10), l-carnitine fumarate, several forms of magnesium daily, and d ribose as a "sometimes" supplement.

    I'm off to explore rockpools right now :) but will give more specific details of my respone to these supplements later.

    Best,
    Anne.

  7. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Topaz,

    I also have moved back and forth on magnesium as a critical cofactor. Because the case can be made for so many items, essentially every vitamin and the minerals, I am separating the ESSENTIALS from the basics and from the critical cofactors and defining the 4 levels more clearly. I take Lecitihin daily rather than the phosphatidylserine and have been suggesting the lecithin for a good 35 years or more.

    Q: Why is fumarate the preferred form of l carnitine as opposed to acetyl l carnitine?

    I suggest that one for the reason that if a person has a strong response to one of them only, that is the one most often. Acetyl l-carnitine turned off the effect of the l-carnitine fumarate. If taken at the same time, nothing happened. This was true for quite a few others as well.

    The foursome sounds good with the basics, essentials, more of the criticals and the active trinity. They are all on my list in one form or another.

    One other caution. In the early stages of mb12, not before starting and not later than 1 year after starting, CoQ10 was just fine with me. However for the first months at least CoQ10 made my blood pressure shoot up about 50 points. It wore off in 36 hours. It gave me a terrible headache.
  8. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi, I have never used ribose, but I have the others. Phosphatidyl serine made be very sick very fast on the first tab. CoQ10 and magnesium are both good for me. L-carnitine had zero results.

    There is a good chance everyone will benefit from CoQ10, but that does not mean your body can use it. This is because these supplements work as a network. In fact, I would add vitamins E & C and lipoic acid to that list, and of those three lipoic acid is the more important. It might simplify things to think of these supplements acting in a chain. One is the first link, the next is the second link, and so on. You might really need a link in the middle of the chain, but if either of those connected to it are deficient it will not work, no matter how much you supplement. This is an oversimplification, but it gives you a flavour of the problem. As we learn understand the networks involved in ME biochemistry these issues will be sorted out. It is still very early days, and not many are doing research in this area.

    The other thing that follows is that taking a huge amount of one link in a chain will do nothing unless its a critical deficiency. Taking small amounts of every link will do much more. Indeed, I think this is the principle behind the simplified methylation protocol - smallish amounts of everything so that every link is present. I have done this too in the past, though working on different targets.

    Bye
    Alex
  9. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    Hi,

    I notice an improvement in exercise capacity from l-carnitine fumarate. I haven't tried the other kinds of l-carnitine. I am also taking magnesium and think that more magnesium may be important for offsetting headaches and post exertional symptoms. I plan to buy a transdermal magnesium to be able to increase the amount I intake. I've tried Co q10 and had some improvement but also insomnia so I haven't used it for a while. I haven't used phosphatidyl serine or d-ribose. I think you may need a B12 in there somewhere?
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi L'engle,

    To improve on the effectiveness of l-carnitine fumarate requires adb12, Metafolin, methylb12 and Alpha Lipoic Acid. If there is too much adb12 compared to mb12, and the relative range is really quite broad, it's like too much current is generated for the capacity of the system. The difference is especially noticed neurologically.
    L'engle likes this.
  11. Nielk

    Nielk

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    I feel a benefit from Magnesium powder called "calm". I have less pain and more regularity wth it. I tried D-ribose when it first came out - about 5 years ago and never felt any benefit.
  12. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Rich Vank had phosphatidylserine in his simplified protocol until he replaced it with lecithin because it can decrease cortisol in patients whose cortisol is already too low.

    As I have high night time cortisol (and high all round but prominent at night), then maybe phosphatidylserine would achieve the goal of getting cortisol down???

    Thoughts please??
  13. L'engle

    L'engle moderate ME

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    Hi Freddd,

    I haven't tried adb12 in a while, since it seemed to have no effect on its own. I have ALA arriving soon, and I think with that and the fumarate in effect I will try the adb12 again. I'm taking methylfolate and methylcobalamin every day.

    Thanks for your input!
  14. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    I take l-carnitine, d-ribose, magnesium and CoQ10, among many others. They have all worked together and helped me enormously.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Neilk,

    D-Ribose comes at the end of a chain that goes like this, adb12 & metafolin & mb12 > l-carnitine fumararate > alpha lipoic acid > D-ribose. It's most effective after exercise has used a lot of ATP that needs to be reclaimed. If it doesn't do anything then it isn't likely to help you.
  16. Nielk

    Nielk

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    I don't exercise at all. (can't) So that could explain why D-ribose never worked for me. Thanks Fredd.
  17. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Nielk,

    That could be. There is only one reason that D-Ribose won't produce an effect, no pool of ex ATP to reprocess. That can be because recycling works well in your body, because ATP isn't made in the first place or the ATP is not being used faster than your body can recycle. Since we can only notice changes above a certain threshold of change, smaller changes happen but can't be noticed. Good luck.
    Lotus97 likes this.
  18. justy

    justy Senior Member

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    Hi, Magnesium - has cured my cramps and helped my restless leg a lot.
    Acetyl l carnitine i cant tolerate - it makes me wired
    CO Q 10 - can only tolerate in low doses - makes me wired
    D Ribose i cant take as it can affect blood sugar and i have hypoglycaemia.
    These are all recommended for all by Dr Myhill and i am supposed to take 300mg a day of Q10 but can only take 30mg. She tells me she has never heard of anyone feeling wired on COQ10.
  19. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    My understanding from both my doctor, and information online, is that it does very much help lower high cortisol. I'm told to take it a couple hours before the 'high' periods (found by doing a 24 hour salivary cortisol test), especially at night before bedtime. Doc says it eventually helps restore circadium (sp) rhythm so that cortisol stays lower at night, and is higher in the morning when it's supposed to be.

    Here's one link w/info:

    http://www.drlowe.com/emailnewsletter/8.24.10/low.high.cortisol.fatigue.print.htm
    August59 likes this.
  20. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    Justy, years ago I felt wired from Coq10. I started where you are at 30mg. You do what you can...Now, I can take a large amount, the amount my doctor wants. I think getting better has helped me to take more. I think a small amount is great if that is all you can take. It is always good to start low and then build up if possible.

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