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The 3 Ps A Closer Look at the Middle One

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by stressman, Jan 24, 2011.

  1. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Sandra,

    I also found that I seemed to have an inflammatory response to plant based fats, which were supposed to be an alternate source of energy

    You might want to consider that the inflammatory response to vegetables, if you are eating the greens, is paradoxical folate deficiency.
     
  2. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, stressman.

    It's great to hear that you got the impression that I am just a kid!:D Would that it were so! But we are where we are.

    No, I'm not taking DCA. I'm just using supplements that support the same part of the biochemistry that DCA impacts. For a while, it was being produced in the U.S. "for veterinary use only," and people were using it to treat cancer, but the FDA put a stop to it. There is a clinic in Canada that is treating cancer cases with DCA, I understand, and I think Dr. Michelakis at the U. of Alberta in Canada is pursuing clinical trials on it. It's a difficult uphill road to get an alternative treatment for cancer approved. It could be that DCA will work for Alzheimer's also, because the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex is blocked there, too. That appears to be the reason that coconut oil works for Alzheimer's. It promotes formation of ketones, and they bypass the pyruvate dehydrogenase complex and enter the Krebs cycle directly.

    Thanks for the updates on Curly and Kass. If you get to the point of considering doing some lab testing, I might be able to give you some input.

    Best regards.

    Rich
     
  3. topaz

    topaz Senior Member

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    Before you give up completely, there is one plant based oil that you could try - virgin coconut oil. It is the latest product being touted by health practitioners on the web. Normally I would not jump on the band wagon but I have been using it for several months. It is a medium chain fatty acid and is far more readily absorbed by the brain. It is claimed to be beneficial for Alzheimers patients. I cannot guarantee you success with this but its worth giving it a try. It is also a natural anti-bacterial so good for the gut also. Do you take fish oils?

    If plant based oils dont work for you, just consume saturated fats - animal fats. Butter, lard etc for cooking instead. The dietary evidence is turning from attributing high cholesterol issues to these products and in fact they are beneficial. Organic/grass fed beef contains much more omega 3 than the grain fed beef and ofcourse contains no antibioitics which they are now thinking is contributing to the rise in gut problems (antibiotics are detrimental to good gut flora and the dosages passed through to the gut via the consumption of antibiotic fed animal protein is now being investigated).
     
  4. stressman

    stressman

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    Hi Topaz, thanks for contributing. Fortunately, both Curly and Kass use virgin coconut oil, the former inspierd by the latter. So do I, albeit the cheapo stuff (1.50 compared with about 8.00 a tub). As an aside, I've also discovered coconut flour. It may not be therapeutic, but boy does it make yummy bread!

    More to follow on how the darling daughters are doing.

    stressman
     
  5. sandralee

    sandralee

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    Hi Topaz,

    Unfortunately I had no luck with the virgin coconut oil. As this was an important element of the Stone Age diet I stocked up on it, not thinking that it would be a problem.

    Ive finally managed to reverse my years of brainwashing about the harmful effects of saturated animal fats. Im still experimenting with diet, as Im one of those people, and I know that there are others here, who feel better when I dont eat at all. Some how, I dont think that ones going to be a long-term solution though :)
    Best wishes,

    Sandra
     
  6. stressman

    stressman

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    Things are getting exciting with Kass now. Her P5P B6 and dibencozide B12 sublingual (thanks Freddd) have arrived. I texted her after a few days with my usual laconic "How?" and got back an equally laconic "B's are brilliant!" It turns out that instead of sleeping 12-14 hours per night she's now down to a regular 7 hours. Her first day on them she "bleached the whole kitchen daddy!" Didn't know they put speed in those things... So to all intents and purposes Kass is now fully functional and bouncing. I'm not what you'd call religious, but I am occasionally moved to utter a silent 'thank you'.

    Curly is well past her six months on the Se, and I've now got her on ALA (thanks Dannybex) to chelate whatever nasties lurk beyond the reach of the Se. It's approaching her 'traditional' crashing time, and the other day she thought it had arrived. However, she's bounced straight back up again, a nice habit she seems to have got into. If she does crash seriously, I've now got a bunch of big guns I can bring to bear, should she wish.

    On the detox front, I've recently been reading up on modified citrus pectin (MCP). Does anyone know anything about it? The NIH ran a test on a patented version called PectaSol and found it induced apoptosis in prostate cancer cells. What interests me more, though, is its purported powerful chelation properties.

    Well, that's all for now,

    stressman
     
  7. stressman

    stressman

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    Hi everyone,

    I've been doing a bit more searching on pectins as chelators, but so far haven't come up with anything really meaty. Plenty of anecdotes though. Do we have an expert on these?

    Meanwhile, Kass has had a crash as of yesterday and she's pretty distressed. It may or may not be a bug from her little boy who currently has an infection and is running a temperature, but Kass is adamant that her temperature is normal. We'll get her to the doc to eliminate all other causes of course. If we have to take this farther ourselves though, I have a question for Freddd: re the dibencozide/metafolin/L-carnitine fumarate/ALA protocol there does not appear to be anything that turns on the glutathione, or have I missed something?

    Wishing everone well,

    stressman.
     
  8. stressman

    stressman

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    Well, two success stories so far. On Kass, her crash, as I suspected at the beginning (hoped!) was down to a virus which hubbie and the two kids all caught at the same time. What is interesting though is that the latter three all manifested the illness, whilst Kass only manifested the post-viral exhaustion but not the illness. I can only speculate that the dibencozide sublingual helped her blow the virus away in the early stages, but if that's the case, wow, it really took it out of her. Anyway, her reply to my usual text of today, "How?" was: "Good good good!!! :D" So, fingers crossed for that.

    On Curly, her 'traditional' crash month of September has passed without the proverbial tradition occurring. I put this mainly down to her intimate awareness of her own body, and her incessant exploration of the condition. She's discovered that when fatigue sets in at the initial stage of tiredness, she would bake her 'magic bread' (recipe earlier in this thread), the high fibre component of which would sweep her intestines clean and completely prevent a full relapse to the sofa for weeks on end. In other words, oh how important is gut function... Currently she has forsaken the 'magic bread' for more concentrated fibre in the form of oat and wheat bran together with oats. There's a lot of both soluble and insoluble fibre there, and it works. So following a sleepy few days, she has bounced back to functional again (is this her new 'tradition? It seems so). She also suspects that she suffers from hypochlorhydria (low stomach acid) and she's thinking of betaine hydrochloride for that one. She suspects that goes back many years before precipitating the condition.

    I'd be interested to read about anyone who has concentrated on intestinal issues, any hints and tips and of course, experiences. And of course, I hope the above may help some.

    stressman
     
  9. little_bird

    little_bird

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    I don't really have anything to add to this thread, as you're all flying well above my head - but I wanted to pop in here to thank my lovely Daddy (Stressman) for working so hard to find a solution for me, and for my sister (I am "Curly"). I've been really fiddling with my diet this year, and with addition of Se and ALA, this is the first year since diagnosis when I haven't had a relapse.

    Love you, Daddy. xxxxx
     
  10. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, little_bird, alias Curly,

    It's great to hear from you personally, and also great to hear of the improvement in your health status. You and your Daddy have a great thing going!

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  11. little_bird

    little_bird

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    Thanks Rich - and thanks also for all the advice you've offered my Dad, which has filtered down to me and positively affected the way I try to live my life. There's a long way yet to go, but to be relatively (!) stable and without random relapses is really the "base camp" on this particular Everest - and we've achieved that much. It has improved my quality of life enormously.

    Thanks again!
     
  12. stressman

    stressman

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    Thank you my Little Curly Bird and Rich for your very kind words! Of course, every doting father believes his daughters to be the most wonderful in the world. They're wrong. Mine are...

    On this thread, I'm preparing a post to consolidate everything I started with, and everything I've got to so far, as a synopsis. Don't hold your breaths though, I'm A) Busy and B) Lazy!

    stressman
     
  13. stressman

    stressman

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    Right, finally caught my breath for a second! A brief report on Curly and Kass, and an equally brief summary of what I've been doing and why. Finally, a newly unearthed evil waiting in the wings.

    Kass has been completely in the clear for a good few months now, despite another bout of flu around Christmas, caught from her 'disease carrying vermin' (my beloved grandchildren...). The big one seemed to be the addition of the P5P B6 and the 10 000 g Source Naturals B12.

    On Curly, something wondrous appears to have happened over the last ten days or so. Her body has switched back to what appears to be full aerobic operation. Rumours that she heard the click as it kicked back in are apocryphal. After the new year she lost nearly two pounds per day for a few days, which has stabilised out at around two pounds per week now. Her famous 'three hills' (early this thread) she climbs once every two or three days. I've been up that hill, it nearly killed me. She's breathing deeply, indicating that oxygen is being both demanded and delivered to its proper places. She's returned to both weight training and her cross trainer, and her heart, which previously refused to go over 110 bpm now reaches a healthy 140 bpm. No trace of lactic acid, no sofa, no repercussions. She feels 'absolutely great', '...really feel myself again for the first time in years!'.

    Wow... Could this be the Big One, I wonder? Early days yet. I keep feeding her Freddd's caveat of course (this thread) but she knows her own body intimately. Of the two of us, she is the Team Leader and I but the anxious advisor. All her physical symptoms, guts, the need for antihistamines for eczema and many other autoimmune conditions etc are all cleared up. She is also building muscle again, and feels that the mitos are functioning normally now. Oi, offspring, I'm a creaky old hippy and this is all a bit much, you know!

    A brief recap on Curly's protocol. I settled on Se for toxic metals, especially Hg, and ALA to scavenge more general toxins. As we recall, Hg and Se form a more or less inseparable bond to form the harmless compound HgSe. Thus with the ALA, despite its plasma half-life of only half an hour, I had no hesitation in giving one 600 mg dose per day. The Se would scavenge any Hg stirred up by the ALA, and the general view of sports medics is that, whilst ALA disappears from the plasma after three hours, that's because it's tucked itself away in the cells (including brain), its further wonders to perform. I dropped the idea of NAC and MSM fairly early on for reasons known to many. My idea was to return the body to a toxic state much cleaner than when the middle P, precipitation occurred. With the hope that this would give the body a chance to click back to the the healthy side of the bistability again.

    And so to the new villain of the plot. Lectins. Nasty poisons. Very nasty, the worst of which are found in 'healthy' whole grains, would you believe? There's only one thread on them on this forum, archived. I'll say no more. Google them.

    It was a low lectin diet that Curly embarked upon in the new year, not coincidence I feel. Oh and she thinks she's in ketosis (not tested yet) which means that her GNG metabolism has also turned on, perhaps for the first time ever.

    Someone please tell me, am I dreaming?

    Very best wishes to all you lovely people,

    stressman.
     
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Stressman,

    I'm glad to hear the great report. I could feel the "click" for myself when my body turned back on. I am very glad you mentioned the p5p. So many people forget the difference betwen p5p and b6 and I know it is a critical factor for some people, just not how many.

    I also think the selenium and ALA to be a good combination. Again, the importance of doing all these "little" things which are an important part of the system. I would very much like to see the whole thing written up. I hope you are telling the docs what has made such profound differences. For me the aerobic capacity literally doubled overnight when I added l-carnitine fumarate but not l-acetyl carnitine. Also my muscles were able to repair and grow again. At that point potassium feel through the floor for me.
     
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Stressman,

    My digestive symptoms worsened and improved in link with paradoxical folate deficiency coming and going.
     
  16. richvank

    richvank Senior Member

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    Hi, Stressman.

    Wonderful!

    I wonder if Curly's low lectin diet could also have been low-gluten. If so, maybe she was gluten-intolerant. There seems to be a lot of that.

    Best regards,

    Rich
     
  17. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    When I am eating lower gluten, in this country, it also means that I am eating LESS Folic Acid fortified foods, and I have fewer digestive issues. Is there a way to eat grains without the folic acid fortification to find out what might aggregate my gut trouble? Still working on it.

    Some say gut trouble may be related to genetics here:
    HLA DR DBQ typing per Ritchie Shoemaker, MD, Maryland USA
    www.survivingmold.com
    (maybe they sell stuff there, but there is also lots of FREE information about treating mold illness that one does not have to purchase)

    Maybe the magic bread/fiber sweep is helping to clear the gut of other bad things.........such as mold toxins!
    Some say if you have been dealt a certain set of genes, and then you live in, work in, or go to school in a water damaged building, you'll always be sick unless you deal with the water damage.....by cleaning up or getting out.
     
  18. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Rosebud Dairy,

    I eat whole wheat bread and pastas. I eat almost no white flour and it is only white flour that has folic acid added. Of course the whole wheat has folinic acid which is even worse for me. I don't have a solution. I am currently taking 3200mcg of Metafolin with each meal (2 per day) and a total of 12,800 per day. The 3200mcg is more effective at preventing noticable symptoms from paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms than either 1600mcg or 2400mcg with each meal and the same daily total.
     
  19. Rosebud Dairy

    Rosebud Dairy Senior Member

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    @ Freddd,

    Do you time the 3200 mcg perfectly 30 minutes or a particular time before a meal? This is tough for me, so I often do 1800-3200 mcg sublingual Solgar Metafolin RIGHT BEFORE the meal. Is this possibly going to be effective? I like whole wheat---all wheat, but going to do mostly avoidance for now, as the raging IBS is so annoying.

    May get improved gut results with Vasoactive Intestinal Polypeptide, but need to stabilize the neuropathy symptoms, or really nail down that folic/folinic issue before I add that in, I think.
     
  20. stressman

    stressman

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    Hi Rich and Freddd - thank you both for your kind comments! Ill add a couple of notes now:

    Rich Yes indeed, the low lectin diet is gluten-free, though in my studies so far I have seen a couple of references which tentatively suggest that gluten intolerance is due to the lectin content rather than the gluten per se.

    Freddd Yes, Id thought of doing a full write up, but I think all the nitty-gritty is probably on this thread already. The only thing Ive not included is references. What would you like to see?

    Curly has just survived a hectic weekend with a boozy birthday on Saturday and friends over for tea on Sunday. No repercussions. Her view though is that this is just a good patch and that she still has CFS. I couldnt (and didnt!) argue with that, as I really dont know. Im still a baby at this sort of stuff although I approached the problem much as I would have the thousands of jobs Ive had to do in my career. For instance, if a bogie collapses under a railway carriage and dumps everyone into the scenery, it will probably take out the carriage suspension, the load-weigh attachments, the brake pneumatics and electrics and the traction motor power supply. Its no good fixing any of the latter if the problem is still with the bogie structure, which collapsed through fatigue (sound familiar?). Drawing a parallel with living bodies, I equated the fatigue fracture to the toxic load at the time of precipitation. So my effort to reduce toxic load was the equivalent of repairing the crack in the bogie, to return it to (nearly) as-new. Unlike trains, however, bodies have the ability to repair their own pneumatics etc. Far-fetched, oh yes, but worth a shot!

    And so to lectins, still an embryonic study, it seems. Here are some introductory links:

    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/lectins/#axzz1gcpLqSfm

    http://www.health-insight.co.uk/fatiguecfs.asp

    http://holistichealingandcfs.wordpress.com/2011/09/30/

    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/archive/index.php/t-3852.html

    http://failsafediet.wordpress.com/a...s-in-food/essential-sugars-and-plant-lectins/


    Might these move the show a little further forward, I wonder?

    Stressman.
     

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