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Teasel Root - Experiences?

Discussion in 'Lyme Disease and Co-Infections' started by adreno, Jun 3, 2015.

  1. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    I got bit by a tick carrying rickettsia a few weeks back. I have been taking doxycycline for about a week, but had to stop due to severe head/eye pressure.

    I have been using teasel root tincture a few days, starting with 1 drop and today worked up to 3. I got hit by quite a violent reaction, which intensified all my symptoms, including headache, eye pain, nausea, malaise, tremor/anxiety.

    I am not aware of any side effects from teasel root, so would this be a herx reaction? As a side note, oregano oil doesn't cause any herxing (or symptom increase) at all.
     
  2. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    @adreno - If it were a textbook Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction, feverishness and/or hypotension would probably be expected. But the strictest application of a herxheimer reaction applies only to spirochetes: Lyme and Syphilis.

    But it does seem common to have similar reactions to other bacteria. So ... maybe it's a reaction to the bacteria being murdered, or maybe it's a side effect. But the severe head pressure and eye pain do seem pretty extreme, and I've never heard of eye pain being a typical part of the process.

    On the other hand, getting the same result from two very different substances might suggest that it is a herxheimer-type reaction. If it was a side-effect of a drug, it wouldn't make much sense for a root extract to produce the same side-effect.

    Basically ... I have no idea, and wish you could ask a doctor for help in proceeding :p
     
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  3. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Adreno, I suppose you could try switching to another herb known to have activity against tick borne infections like Cat's claw and see if you get the same symptoms. Personally I get a vicious herx from this one.
     
  4. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    @adreno I think its a herx. What I have noticed in treating my lyme and Co. is that after I have been on a regime of ABX for a few months and then add in an herbal, I herx, but it does not last too long, from a few days to a week or two.
    The year before last I went on an all herbal lyme protocol, Buhners, and I the worst herx of my life,so bad for so long I finally had to stop the protocol, and I was in bed herding for over 2 mos. and even after being able to leave my bed it was several more months till I was feeling better.
    I think I knocked down my bacterial load by being on the ABX for a while. The herx that herbals give me are a million times stronger than any ABX herx. Just my non scientific brain theory, but I think the bugs have not built up a resistance to herbals so it sends them into an uproar. There isn't an ABX around that they don't recognize and have developed some way of dealing with, or getting around, or ignoring or even….using as food….uuck!
     
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  5. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    I tried Samento years ago, and it likewise gave me a violent reaction. At that time teasel root did too. I didn't believe I was infected with a tick borne disease at the time, so I discontinued.
     
  6. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Well, if that's the case it would indicate that the herbals are more effective than abx. And perhaps they are, I wouldn't know. There doesn't seem to be much research on this. But from reading the stories on the web, there seem to be a huge number of people who either never improve or relapse with abx. Lyme and co seems almost untreatable.
     
  7. juniemarie

    juniemarie Senior Member

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    Not necessarily more effective. Many LLMD think you need them both….this is a very cleaver fellow, Lyme & Co.
    I think in my case I have seen that herbals alone were to aggressive. ABX alone while they helped with decreasing bacterial load, it was the herbals that pushed it further. So the magic was in the combination of them, for me at least.
    When you combine a smart bug with each individuals chemistry, DNA, other possible infections and viruses, age, how long they have had it, the combinations of what may or may not work are endless… and thats not including the many different types of Bartonella,& Babesia, each responding better to one ABX or another…..this is what frustrates both the patients and the docs.

    I spend hours everyday on lyme forums, that have many many more participants than this little PR Lyme section. I get to read and take notes on whats working or not working for people. Abx, herbals, supplements, other esoteric treatments, and what combinations of what. What I have seen is although there seem to be a small consensus of core herbals and ABX combinations that have a reasonably good chance of working for lyme or one of the co infections, still there a quite a few who don't respond to it, or find some herb or ABX that is working for them and not for many others….Its the usual crap shoot, which everyone on PR is all too familiar with
     
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  8. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Yes, welcome to the whole contraversy regarding chronic lyme haha. I use Teasal Root it works very well, also a potent anti inflammatory. Just don't go above 5 drops three times a day in tincture form. If you are using anti microbials instead of abx you might want more of an herbal combo. Check out http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/. He has a lot of information in his books, and site for herbs to use. Not too much info on Rickettsia, I believe he is writing a new book on that co infection. However most the herbs in the core protocol, and others recommended work for a large amount of co infections.
     
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  9. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

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    There is also the theory/belief that these antimicrobial herbals are less specific and thus hit a much broader range of pathogens. If this is true you could have been "treating" something else that you didn't even know you had.

    I take Samento and after a year of it, I can still only tolerate 8 or 9 drops per day in divided doses. I had to start with 1/8th drop to tolerate it in the beginning.

    Sushi
     
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  10. Sidereal

    Sidereal Senior Member

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    Herbs also have prebiotic effects so in addition to killing tick borne pathogens they are making other changes to the microbiome like displacing pathogens in the gut. I don't have Lyme disease (apparently) and I still "herx" on this stuff.
     
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  11. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    There seems to be disagreement on the dosage. I've seen recommendations up to a hundred drops per day.
    Thanks, I know about Buhner. Funny how rickettsia etc are termed co infections. They are pathogens in their own right, and don't have to come with lyme at all.

    Some of his more exotic herbs are a little hard to source here in Europe. Also, some of the core herbs I don't tolerate, such as knotweed. However, I tolerate pure resveratrol, and take it now.
     
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  12. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Even less specific than a broad spectrum abx? I guess it's possible. It's certainly possible I had one or several pathogens prior to this tick bite. I could even have a tick borne infection, although I don't remember being bit before. I tested negative on Igenex lyme, and never thought more of it.
     
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  13. leela

    leela Slow But Hopeful

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    I have a friend who uses Teasel root and has to stay at a very small dose; I think she maxed out at two drops. And she had to work up to that. Otherwise, Herx-o-rama.
    It might be useful to back off the dose and stay at the dose that doesn't make you feel bad for a while. It is important to work up very slowly.
     
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  14. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    The herbal approach is sounding more and more attractive :)
     
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  15. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    See, I would think that if tolerance never improves, then it isn't herx but an adverse reaction. Herx reactions should gradually improve, and tolerance should increase. But perhaps this can take a long time if you are loaded with pathogens?
     
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  16. nofuture

    nofuture

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    I have tried teasel root from a reputable ND. I felt it was weak. i tried it for 1 month. There was no sustained improvement.
     
  17. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    Yes, that has been my experience with my reactions to Lyme (bit dozens or hundreds of time, and tested positive). The reaction typically started after a few days of starting a new antibiotic targeting it, and was extremely consistent and constant for several weeks. Then it generally became intermittent and milder, then I stopped reacting. And then I moved onto the next antibiotic(s), and basically repeated the process :meh:

    With regards to Bartonella, starting new antibiotics which can affect it has three times resulted in a new outbreak of the Bartonella rash within a week or so. Some chills and feverishness have resulted during my longer course of Rifampicin, though much more irregular and generally milder, and a mild headache 1-3 days per week. And also increased hypotension, but again, not nearly as consistent as the reaction to the initial Lyme treatment.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2015
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  18. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Yes but at least with a modest approach you don't risk possible side effects as much. It is strange I didn't even realize or mean to apply you had a borrelia infection along with it. I guess its just such common terminology when dealing with tick borne diseases that its almost a blanket term. Well glad to hear you tolerate others well. A good substitute that is often recommended instead of knotweed is Stephenia. Pure resveratrol has benefits but does not work in the exact same way, Houttuynia would be good for yours, as would Bacial Skull cap, and Sida.
     
  19. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    In the following (in vitro) study, the combined effect of the two herbal extracts Samento and Banderol, were more effective at eradicating borrealia than doxycycline:

    http://www.townsendletter.com/July2010/sapi0710.html
     
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  20. adreno

    adreno PR activist

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    Cowden writes:

    And then he goes on to mention first Cumanda, then Banderol:

    http://www.nutramedix.ec/ns/images/stories/pdf/effectivenessofsamentocumandaburburandprotocol.pdf

    I don't want to make things too complicated by adding in tons of herbs. But Cumanda and Banderol sounds like an interesting combo. Samento is quite harsh from my experience, and if another herb works "as well or better", then that would be preferable. It's also cheaper.
     

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