The 12th Invest in ME Conference, Part 1
OverTheHills presents the first article in a series of three about the recent 12th Invest In ME international Conference (IIMEC12) in London.
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Supps. to take if you don't eat meat, eggs, or dairy?

Discussion in 'General Treatment' started by Ocean, Apr 16, 2012.

  1. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    I know B12 always come up for what vegans should supplement with but it seems there are other vitamins and supplements that people who don't eat one or more of these food groups may be more likely to be low on. Any ideas? Me personally, I eat seafood, but no other meat and almost never eggs or dairy and wonder if I should be supplementing certain things because of my diet. Right now I'm skipping grains as well.
     
  2. Calathea

    Calathea Senior Member

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    You could try logging what you typically eat for a week using a dieting website or software, one of the ones which does a nutritional analysis. I originally started doing that for weight loss, but I'm finding it really useful for seeing where I'm at nutritionally. I had no idea that potatoes had so much potassium, for instance. Go for one which allows you to create custom foods where you can input the nutritional content. I think there's a fairly good website one out there which will even analyse your amino acids, but unfortunately I don't seem to have bookmarked it. I put my supplements in, so that gives me a good idea of what I'm getting overall. Based on food alone, I tend to be high on manganese and selenium in particular (wholewheat pasta and my breakfast cereal, it seems), but not so high on Vit D or calcium. Handily, I'm on prescription Vit D/calcium anyway.
     
  3. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Thanks Calathea. Do you have a link for the site you use? It would be interesting to see all the nutritional info, if I can manage to get myself to do all the logging.
     
  4. Calathea

    Calathea Senior Member

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    I'm using Fitday, which is, erm, quirky. MyFitnessPal is more popular. MyPlate on Livestrong is well-respected too, though I don't know whether it does the nutrient breakdown.
     
  5. heapsreal

    heapsreal iherb 10% discount code OPA989,

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    i suppose meat is knowm for its protein, iron and b vits so supplementing with those would help, also a good amount of fat in your diet from olive oil.

    cheers!!!
     
  6. Calathea

    Calathea Senior Member

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    Actually, you might be better off focusing on nuts and seeds for your fat source, as they will provide a nice amount of protein. Pulses too, for the protein. Not that I have anything against olive oil, but I do use all oils in pretty small quantities when I cook. I've tried being gluten-free, while being vegan, but I haven't tried going completely grain-free. As well as being a major protein source, not to mention fibre (especially with wholegrains), I think I get a lot of my B vitamins and various minerals from grains.
     
  7. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

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    An interesting thing I have seen here: Probably a much higher proportion of members here than the general public, have been or are vegetarian/and or vegan, for many years--me included. This is anecdotal of course, I just keep hearing it from members.

    Some of us have decided we have to eat meat after looking at many lab tests (me included). This was a hard decision but one I and quite a few others felt that we had to make as, even with good supplementation, we weren't able to compensate for not eating animal protein.

    It might even make an interesting poll! I am not suggesting that the vegans and vegetarians here change their diet, only that it is a tricky thing to deal with and some of the deficiencies we might have incurred over the years could be making getting well more difficult.

    Best wishes,
    Sushi
     
  8. Hanna

    Hanna Senior Member

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    I would appreciate very much such poll, thanks Sushi!
     
  9. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    Eliminating a lot of good food is what started my problems, even thinking I was doing it correctly. I hope you can find enough supplements to be ok. It really important so you don't get worse. Lcarnitine is one not to miss. So many.
     
  10. Calathea

    Calathea Senior Member

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    Interesting point. It could just be down to the fact that people here tend to play around with our diets generally. A much higher proportion of us than the general population have tried gluten-free, milk-free, wheat-free, sugar-free, anti-candida diets and so forth. We are also more likely to have more varying dietary needs than the general population. Some people will need really high-protein diets, others will need the opposite. The bowel problems that most of us have ensure that we will have wildly varying needs when it comes to fibre intake, too. None of us can assume that what works for us diet-wise will work for everyone else with ME, whether we're talking about animal protein or juicing.
     
  11. Sushi

    Sushi Senior Member Albuquerque

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    Hi Calathea,

    I am thinking more about long term diet history. I was a vegetarian for decades and now think this could have contributed to some deficiencies that made this beast harder to treat.

    Best wishes,
    Sushi
     
  12. Calathea

    Calathea Senior Member

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    As far as I know, vegetarians are no more prone to dietary deficiencies than the rest of the population, and tend to have lower rates of diet-related illnesses. The people who tend to get deficiencies seem to do so for other reasons that hold whether they're veggie or not, e.g. very limited diet due to poor cooking skills or a reliance on junk food; poverty; a tendency to extreme diets such as fruitarianism, extreme paleo, and certain diets which are out there for weight loss or health. So if you are living on burgers, fries and toast, and you cut out the burgers, then yes, your diet has got worse, but it was pretty bad to begin with. (And the stories of "my sister was vegetarian but she was really unhealthy until we fed her a bit of chicken" always seem to be youngish people whose diets were madly restricted before they went veggie, and who failed to add in replacement foods. I get very fed up with people assuming that a single person who attempted to live solely on beans on toast is representative of all vegans, especially when I eat a far healthier and more varied diet than pretty much anyone I know.) I'm not saying this is you, though!

    I also reckon that even if we look at diet history, there will be a bias with this forum. It's a forum where dietary modifications and supplements aren't just popular, they're the norm. This alone will be enough to cause a selection bias with the kind of people who are likely to join this forum and then be active on it.

    I think you'd need very sophisticated research to be able to work out how diet, both current and past, interacts with ME. I do agree that it's an interesting point and very much worth looking into. I think we'd struggle to get worthwhile data from a poll on this forum, though maybe there are certain questions which would work better than others, considering that it's a small sample size and biased sample to boot. I put up that poll about gender and sexual orientation, and even something relatively straightforward like that didn't get remotely enough answers to give us even a rough idea of the gender ratio on this forum, let alone for people with ME generally.

    If there was proper research on this, I wonder what sort of patterns would show up? Would we perhaps end up in different subgroups? Do the people who can't tolerate grains have other things in common, or the people who do better on meat?
     
    justy, leela and ahimsa like this.
  13. svetoslav80

    svetoslav80 svetoslav80 at gmail.com

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    As you eat seafood I consider you have protein in your diet. Other things you may miss are:
    eggs - vitamin E - you can get it from olive oil and some other sources, vitamin A - carrots (but you maybe already eat these), iron - nettle
    milk - also contains vitamin A which you can get from carrots
    So the only supplement I think you will need is vitamin B12. It's good idea to have other protein foods as well, in addition to seafood, such as nuts.
     
  14. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

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    Yes, I am not the only one for sure. There are quite a few that got sick on a limited diet. What works for me is LOW sugar/carb, varied, colorful diet with lean meat .and lots of great fish and shellfish. Shrimp is great for you! Just really the best, healthful foods.

    It isn't just CFS people, people in general seem to be not doing well with an overload of grains. Junk food is bad for everyone, not just us. Healthful balanced food is what heals the nerves, brain and helps us do better.
     
  15. Valentijn

    Valentijn Senior Member

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    B12 deficiency is a definite exception to this, especially for vegans.
     
  16. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Unfortunately I wasn't able to tolerate that supplement so far :(
     
  17. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Very interesting Sushi. I'd love to see that poll.

    I've definitely had increased protein cravings since getting sick. I didn't know if it was tied in to the muscle loss I experienced right away after getting sick or not. Either way, that is why I added in wild seafood to my diet, because the cravings are just so strong so I feel my body must need it, plus I just won't be satisfied without it. In the past it was no problem being vegetarian and even vegan at times. Now, I feel myself craving animal protein all the time. Although I still don't crave any meat other seafood and bacon!

    My diet is pretty restricted because of some other health issues, so unfortunately I'm not sure if I'd have that same leeway to be able to add meat back in. But I'm definitely not ruling it out. It might be something I try at some point to see how it effects things. I'd have to learn a bit about purchasing and preparing meat for the first time ever, and find out about getting meats not treated with hormones and given unhealthy feed, etc. For now, I would eat seafood every night if I could but it can be costly, and there are concerns about mercury, PCBs, etc. I may need to look into getting fish that are safer to eat more often.

    Can you say what type of lab tests led you to make that decision? If not, it's no problem at all.
     
  18. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Interesting thought Sushi. I've been a vegetarian my entire adult life, so like you decades. And vegan or close to it for certain years also.
     
  19. Ocean

    Ocean Senior Member

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    Thank you everyone for your thoughts and ideas. I do eat a variety of fresh organic foods, eat nuts, beans, etc. so I'm trying to keep my diet healthy and varied withing the restrictions I have. My B12 has tested normal but maybe supplementing with small amounts would be useful to try. I think there are 2 different types of B12? Is there one that is preferable to another? In the past I tried sublingual methyl B12.
     
  20. justy

    justy Donate Advocate Demonstrate

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    Hi Ocean - i have been a vegetarian and vegan for over 20 years and have had M.E for 17. I dont think being vegetarian has contributed to my general low nutritional status (deficient in many things) i think i obviously have a problem with absorbing things. My 4 kids have all been brought up vegetarian and have never eaten meat. My husband has been a veggie as long as me and doesnt have any health issues at all - very healthy man!

    I think the only thing i wish i had focused on sooner was B12 - i do think you ccan get deficient in this on a veggie/vegan diet - i also learnt recently that you can pass on your deficiencies to your children - B12 especially so my kids are now taking a supplement. My levels wqhere in the normal range - 246 but on the very low end of normal - what was your result? I have had very very good improvements in my health from doing daily methyl b12 injections - the progress has been gradula but ongoing - i highly recommend them.
    All the best, Justyx
     

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