1. Patients launch $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
August 8th - What is the one thing about suffering with severe ME that the world needs to know?
Andrew Gladman brings our coverage of the Understanding & Remembrance Day for Severe ME, airing the voice of patients ...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Supplements that fix Blood-Brain-Barrier/Gut

Discussion in 'The Gut: De Meirleir & Maes; H2S; Leaky Gut' started by acrosstheveil, Mar 10, 2014.

  1. acrosstheveil

    acrosstheveil Senior Member

    Messages:
    210
    Likes:
    56
    I believe I have intestinal permiability as well as a leaky blood brain barrier. what are some things to help fix this?


    I have been considering benfotiamine and high dose vitamin d. I have tried l-glutamine in the past but I cannot tolerate any glutamates at all. I have tried probiotics with no effect for years.
     
    Wayne and Beyond like this.
  2. Beyond

    Beyond 10% of discount in iHerb!--> PEZ915

    Messages:
    936
    Likes:
    519
    Murcia, Spain
    Propolis, Seacure, Chlorella, Colostrum, Zinc Carnosine, NAG... many things are shown in clinical trials with either humans or animals to help leaky gut. Yes, also probiotics, which never helped me at all, even VSL-3, so studies are not the sacred truth. I am taking Seacure, Colostrum and Propolis and find that they help (colostrum gives me a bit of eczema and acne) along with awfully restricted diet. I will switch to larger dosages with kilograms of chlorella soon though, more is better and capsules cannot compare to tablespoons of whole food.

    http://www.clinicalnutritionjournal.com/article/S0261-5614(09)00134-4/abstract
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2731278/

    I don´t know about treating the leaky BBB, but I wish I did!

    High vit D never did anything for me... despite how promising it looked.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2014
  3. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,694
    Likes:
    4,396
    Cornwall, UK
    I think that the first thing you need to do is eliminate foods that may be causing leaky gut. These are commonly gluten and milk, and it may be helpful to reduce grains and sugar generally.

    Glutamine isn't the same as glutamate. Although there is interconversion between the two, I don't think that taking glutamine normally increases glutamate.

    This thread and the paper it relates to contain info on diet and supplements. The paper suggests zinc, lipoic acid, quercetin, curcumin(e), coenzyme Q10, glutamine and N-acetyl cysteine. I take:

    • Sodium bicarbonate
    • L-glutamine
    • Alpha-lipoic acid
    • Acetyl-l-carnitine
    • Omega-3
    • Bone minerals
    Different things suit different people.

    I don't know what might heal a leaky BBB but would guess that avoiding things that can make it leaky will help, such as stress and over-exertion.
     
  4. wastwater

    wastwater Senior Member

    Messages:
    175
    Likes:
    64
    uk
    I wonder if interleukin makes everything leaky,leaky veins think its a side effect of il-2 treatment for cancer.
     
  5. stevesayshi

    stevesayshi

    Messages:
    97
    Likes:
    74
    Don't forget butyrate! That is a potent gut healer and anti inflammatory.
     
  6. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,694
    Likes:
    4,396
    Cornwall, UK
    Thanks for prompting me to do a bit of searching, as I am currently somewhat preoccupied with interferon's involvement in inflammation and ME (especially at different stages) and interleukin keeps popping up in my searches.

    This science paper has some interesting technical info. Basically, yes, various cytokines can affect BBB permeability, as can lipopolysaccharides (LPS) which are also implicated in leaky gut.

    This older one refers to interferon beta and some other cytokines which are at abnormal levels in ME, and are also likely to be implicated. I'm more interested in interferon gamma, which appears to be especially implicated at earlier stages of ME so will search some more.

    This is a thread I started on interferon and depression, in case anyone here is interested.
     
    NK17 likes this.
  7. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

    Messages:
    3,115
    Likes:
    2,967
    For the gut, see here. To quote:

     
  8. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes:
    1,707
    Tundras of Europa
    Resistant starch.
     
  9. Aileen

    Aileen Senior Member

    Messages:
    608
    Likes:
    493
    Canada
    For resistant starch to work, would you not need to have the right gut microbes first?
     
  10. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,694
    Likes:
    4,396
    Cornwall, UK
    Wonder if it can indirectly help the BBB too?
     
  11. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes:
    1,707
    Tundras of Europa
    You need to have some bifido bacteria that can flourish and produce butyrate.

    Yes, I believe it will, because LPS and inflammatory cytokines disrupt the BBB.
     
    MeSci likes this.
  12. MeSci

    MeSci ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6

    Messages:
    3,694
    Likes:
    4,396
    Cornwall, UK
    Someone just posted info on the Resistant Starch thread about histamine increasing capillary permeability, so I wonder whether antihistamines could help.

    I found this info about histamine.
     
  13. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    Likes:
    210
    I realize carnosine has been covered earlier, but someone brought it to my attention yesterday with respect to histamines.

    I have been looking into the histamine issue and found that copper and zinc are important players on the field. I'll just include this short clip, but I'm sure you are all familiar with the info.

    3. Copper imbalance. This is associated with infections, in general, particularly fungal and some bacterial infections. For example, excessive candida albicans infection in the intestines is very common when copper is out of balance. It will not go away, even with medication, often, until the copper is brought into better balance, and then it goes away by itself.

    4. Zinc deficiency. Zinc is required for the enzyme RNA transferase and other an essential enzymes involved in protein synthesis. Zinc is also needed for digestive enzyme production in the mouth, stomach and intestines. Zinc has a lot to do with many digestive difficulties including colitis and irritable bowel syndrome.

    The reason my friend at a mast cell disorder forum mentioned carnosine is that it handles copper. That's why it helps with histamine issues. We all know that eczema is a histamine issue; but leaky gut being a histamine issue is a new idea. Copper issues are common in both eczema and IBS, so it makes sense that if something makes one thing worse, it will make the other symptoms worse. If you find something that makes one thing better, it should help the other symptom, too.

    I don't know if anyone took carnosine, or zinc carnosine long enough to get results, but if you did, I'd like to know. I just ordered some yesterday so I don't have any experience with it yet.

    One natural antihistamine that's helping this week is nettles. I make some into at tea and put some in capsules. Between that and chlorella, my gut feels much better.

    A low histamine diet and Vitamin B2 in conjunction with the carnosine, or zinc carnosine, help a lot.

    If you like to read studies, I can link them.
     
  14. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    Likes:
    210

    If LPS disrupts the BBB, and taking resistant starch causes a release of LPS, I don't know that the direct result of taking resistant starch is a healing of the lining of the gut or the BBB.

    My very uncomfortable experience and the experience of others with compromised guts might mean that it might be better to find a way to heal the BBB and leaky gut before taking on the gram negative bacteria in the large intestines.

    The bacteria might be actually doing us a favor keeping us protected from heavy metals.

    One of the blogspots about resistant starch said that if your immune system is compromised you shouldn't take resistant starch.
     
  15. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes:
    1,707
    Tundras of Europa
    Well, that is all debatable. I believe that things will have to get worse before they can get better, as per our discussion in the resistant starch thread. You might equally argue that those who are immunocompromised need RS the most. Anyway, what is the definition of immunocompromised? How do classify an individual according to this? On what basis?

    Following your line of reasoning, you could argue that you shouldn't take zinc, as this causes more bacterial displacement and hence LPS.

    In do question the possibility of healing your gut and BBB without feeding your microbiome.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
  16. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes:
    1,707
    Tundras of Europa
    Since you like to discuss things, I would like to ask you why B2 would help with leaky gut and BBB disruption?

    And yes, I like to read studies.
     
  17. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    Likes:
    210
    As far as things having to get better before they get worse, after seeing what is happening when you release LPS (and would you agree heavy metals?) into the system, that is, what is causing the headache, nausea, etc., I am interested in finding a way that doesn't cause the damage that that method does. I'll try to put together a list of "diseases" caused by LPS, such as atherosclerosis, issues of that nature.

    Yes, those who are immunocompromised need RS the most, but I am going to wait until other things improve so that the LPS and heavy metals don't go systemic. Everyone has that choice. As to the definition of immonucompromised, I don't have one. I think Dr B G Grace's blogpost was where that recommendation came from, maybe you can find out from her. For uses here, though, I would expect that having ME/CFS would put one in that category. I have to bring up that Ripley, the person who started the resistant starch thread, has said that he does not have ME/CFS.

    I do agree with not taking zinc. I would work on straightening out the mineral balance between zinc and copper through other methods. Copper issues can mess up manganese, too, but I don't know if taking specific minerals actually brings about the return to balance.

    Yeah, I don't know if it's possible to heal the gut without adding in resistant starch. That's what we're looking for here.

    Edit in: I have been interested in zinc caronosine, people with h pylori find it very helpful. So I was asking myself why the zinc doesn't cause an annoying reaction, and I thought it has to because it's combined with carnosine. Carnosine handles copper, and maybe negative reactions to zinc are caused by what it's doing with respect to copper. Just a theory, I'll have to look for an answer.
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2014
  18. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

    Messages:
    554
    Likes:
    210
    Because it's bifidogenic.
     
  19. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes:
    1,707
    Tundras of Europa
    Is it? Where did you read that? In any case, anything bifidogenic will cause LPS.
     
  20. adreno

    adreno 3% neanderthal

    Messages:
    2,444
    Likes:
    1,707
    Tundras of Europa
    The only other way I can think of would be to supplement the butyrate directly. I don't know how that would work though. When I tried it, years back, I got a massive allergic reaction, almost akin to an anaphylactic shock, no idea why.
     

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page