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Supplement intolerance?

Discussion in 'Hypersensitivity and Intolerance' started by douglasmich, Mar 24, 2016.

  1. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Looking back at this, I found this very interesting. I've been thinking that it was the condition of my gut, since it seems I'm not digesting protein, that was causing all the vitamin deficiencies. Or possibly the genes turning on as I've read recently that dysbiosis in the gut can make the genes turn on or off etc. I'll try to insert a document on the subject: "
    Gut's Microbial Community Shown to Influence Host Gene Expression"

    http://www.sciencenewsline.com/news/2016112414220068.html

    Hope this works!



     
  2. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Could you please detail that?
     
  3. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    Indeed.

    I can’t say I understand this much, but the first thing my alterna-doc said when he looked at the results of the NutrEval test I did at the end of October was “You aren’t digesting proteins.” I suppose the very fact that I had a ‘High Need’ for B1, B2, B9 and B12, and was ‘Borderline’ in B3 and B6 reveal this. So, after working on diet with an eye to lowering my supplement needs, it’s obvious that my digestion still isn’t good enough to meet my body’s needs on its own.

    There are many markers out of range (and many within) on the NutrEval Test, but without speculating about many of them, one measure that the test is largely based on is Creatinine and mine is low. Since “ low creatinine also occurs with malnutrition and dietary protein insufficiency,” and since I eat a fair amount of it, it somehow isn’t getting absorbed. My Carnosine is also low, an indicator of someone who eats a low protein diet—and that’s not me. I’ve long had a hard time tolerating digestive enzymes—only my standard issue of insomnia after taking them—so I’ve worked on eating raw sauerkraut, drinking lemon juice and sipping ginger tea.

    Yet the issue persists. As I said above, I worked months increasing molybdenum to 150mcg/day. Strangely, even taking that amount when I did the NutrEval Test (I stayed on supps to see what was working), it showed me needing 150mcg…I can only assume MORE. Though I haven’t added to my base yet.

    All this said, as I’ve returned to increasing folate with a higher base of molybdenum, selenium, copper and B12, I’ve seemed to tolerate it a bit better. I am going back to my gastroenterologist at some to-be-schedule time and will check into the issue of SIBO again, which I had and was treated with Xifaxan (Rifaximin) for about 5 years ago. Greg, of the B-12 Oils company, says that no matter how often you ‘cleanse’ the gut with antibiotics or herbs (and I did the latter more recently), it will return to the dysbiosis unless the motility is corrected, and that will only happen with the right support by B-vitamins. And as I’ve added and subtracted these trying to understand what was going on in my body, it’s true that my IBS has been most relieved as I increase the Folate. IBS and a runny nose, in fact, are my folate deficiency symptoms as I ramp up. So far, I’ve never been able to tolerate enough to have those symptoms disappear. Right now, at 1800mcg/day of folate, I’m teetering on the high end of my past highest point. We’ll see if I can go further, and/or how much further I need to go to eliminate the symptoms.

    Still, I’m keeping those digestive enzymes in view, adding small amounts/deleting them etc. And I’d stopped taking a probiotic I’d taken for years (HMF FORTE by Genestra)(all this $ on supps gets overwhelming!) and may return to that or another.

    Just so much to keep track of and to consider. It’d be nice to come to a resting place, an angle of repose, as they say.

    Happy New Year, by the way!
     
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  4. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Thank you for this!!!!!!!!!! My creatinine is VERY low.
     
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  5. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    To a healthier new year to all of us :hug:
     
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  6. Lolinda

    Lolinda after meals, I need to lay in bed for hours

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    Is the creatinine you @Gondwanaland and @Kathevans mention measured in blood or urine?

    Btw I just accidentally succeeded to crazily increase my protein intake. I describe it - maybe it is of interest for you:
    All I did was to take transdermal lecithin (smear lecithin on skin). I took it in order to increase choline, which I do not tolerate orally. Choline I wanted because the liver needs it to process fats. I wanted to increase my caloric intake because I am underweight. Result: I can eat now w/o effort up to a 4000kcal, mostly healthy fats. No problems of digestion at all. Happy :) :) :) But then I was surprised that my protein consumption went up too. Can easily eat 400 or even 500g of meat. I did not push it. I just developed the appetite. I would love to know how this works! I feel more energetic and my sports performance increased.

    Btw, if you suspect protein maldigestion/resorption: do you have "protein farts" or stinky stools? That is a notorious problem bodybuilders discuss a lot, from eating (and supplementing) more protein than their digestion can handle.
    I see from your comments you are well aware that low creatinine has a lot of causes. Why not get an amino acid profile?

    My creatine, both blood and urine, was always normal, though. My amino acid profiles were low.
    IMG_20161128_223229.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
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  7. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @Lolinda you are having histapenia too!
     
  8. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Urine creatinine 67,70 mg/dL (28 - 217 mg/dL)
    Serum creatinine 0,60 mg/dL (0,52 - 1,04 mg/dL)
    Not good for someone who was on a high protein diet and nevertheless losing lean mass.
    You are going to LOVE this video series
     
  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @Lolinda @Kathevans do you get tailbone / lower back pain? I had been free of these for a long time, but now that I am having salicylate intolerance again and histapenia these are returning. First the lower back pain, then the tailbone.
     
  10. Kathevans

    Kathevans Senior Member

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    @Lolinda: the Creatinine is a urine concentration, as well as a urine measurement. I don't seem to have 'protein farts' , only the gassiness that comes with IBS, when I have it.

    @Gondwanaland: I'm happy to share anything. It's only that there are so many possible reasons for each symptom. As to lower back pain, I would say more a tightness. My pain is in the lower back/hip area. For years I suffered with coxodynia, that tailbone pain. I carried two towels in my purse at all times to place in a wedge formation so I never had to sit directly on my tailbone. Then it disappeared. I haven't had that for a couple of years now. but I have plenty of other stuff! What is histapenia? Low histadine? If that's the case, I don't have it. Mine on the NutrEval Test is measured as 653 in a range of 296-1,136, right smack in the middle (but then, seemingly a different measurement from the above).
     
  11. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    Both my mom and I have serious issue with maldigestion/assimilation with protein and fat. She weighs 82 pounds, my weight is ok but hair is full of splits on the end. 37g hydrolyzed whey protein in water can cause immediate gas. We both take digestive enzymes, drinking ACV or lemon or pure C powder in water to increase stomach acid at each meal; we have been on probiotics for months, which really eliminates my craving for sweets, I don't combine protein and carbs anymore in order to improve digestion. They all help to relieve some stress for sure but far from your result. I am running to store tomorrow for trnansdermal lecithin, but eager to know what exactly you use? what's your dosage? and how long take you to see your result? 400-500g meat! It's enough to kill my mom and me.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2017
  12. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    My serum creatinine is 0.86 (0.5-1.10), and whatever it means. I forgot to write you back about your uric acid level. I am not a doctor, but if I were you, I would consider it's high enough to cause physiological stress in body.
     
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  13. Lolinda

    Lolinda after meals, I need to lay in bed for hours

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    Transdermal lecithin (+b5 +keto) protocol that enabled me to eat up to 500g meat and 4000kcal a day

    @jjxx I hope you can use some of my experiences to resolve your issues.

    I hate the usual "take x for y" style of advice where one cannot actually reproduce what other people did. So I will describe everything in painstaking detail.

    1. I bought Fearn lecithin granules.
    2. Generally, I take every supplement (vitamins, minerals, aminos) transdermally because gut bugs love concentrated isolated nutrients. Even in healthy people, 60% of supplemental choline is consumed by gut bugs. Think of it: you are only the second consumer of what you ingest, they are the first. Adding to that, I have SIBO (proven by methane-hydrogen breath test). Adding to that, I get worse after consuming high-choline foods for a few days (e.g. duck fat), Now, one cannot take granules transdermally. So I take 2mL (with a mL measurement spoon) into a minicup and mix it with oil until the granules resolve. I simply do it with one finger, for a minute or so. But it would probably mix better with one of those mini-mixers usually used for foaming milk for coffee. The oil: I use borage oil, because I have a deficiency of GLA, but it also works with extra virgine olive oil. Maybe water would work even better?
    3. Smear it on skin and let it stay there for hours. After a while though, when it dries, it becomes kinda glue, which is no nice, also imo it doesn't resorb any further. So maybe an hour or so after application, I smear olive oil on it (first round: llecithin with borage, second round: olive oil). The olive oil then takes care of the residue. 2 times borage wasnt so good for my skin, first with borage then smear olive oil over it is very much liked by my skin.

    Since a week, I try NOW liquid lecithin from sunflower seeds. I thought it would be a good idea as it is already a liquid, so I do not have issues with non-resolving granules. Bad idea: it does not resorb well and it has a smell. Also it has much less choline. My caloric and my meat intake decreased somewhat. I countered by doing it 2 times per day, but it produces a thick layer on my skin.

    My next try will be choline bitartrate. I am sure it is easier to apply transdermally than the Fearn granules as it is a powder. Let's see the effect.

    Transdermal AGP-choline ("Alpha GPC" by Jarrow, currently 300mg, but start very low!) I use since months. It did not have any effect on calories nor meat consumption. I find this very surprising. Would like to know why. AGP choline improved my gastric motility and many other things, so I highly recommend it. My newest measurements: my previously poor postprandial intestinal blood flow (superior mesenteric artery) doubled (!!) when comparing to before agp-choline. So it has a chance to help with digestive issues: producing digestive enzymes is energy intensive (in particular gastric acid and pancreas), and resorption needs big blood flow. But in me it had no effect on caloric or protein consumption.

    Reading the details you provide, @jjxx , I feel so similar to you: your situation is like where I started 2014. I was barely able to get any protein at all and hydrolised protein was outright a catastrophy. In me, it was so bad that I was unable to eat any meat or cheese or eggs or fish. I was almost vegan, not voluntarily (but my Indian friends loved it... :) :) ). What helped me out of this: Drop all carbs and eat a paleo - ketogenic diet. After a week on raw salads and butter and olive oil, I suddenly started to have a feeling that I could tolerate meat. So it was. Beware: a ketogenic diet cured many people of many things, but it is difficult to get it right. For me it was the last resort that saved my life: I couldnt eat almost anything any more at that time in 2014, slept 20h in 10 days, couldnt climb up stairs nor lift a bag. I was retrospectively diagnosed with ME. After 2 weeks on keto, I carried a 30kg backpack happily for an hour! :)

    Then, a major stage was 7mg transdermal b5 per day, which I do since months. I take it in a saturated solution of Mg-Cl bath salt, which aids resorption (suddenly increases cutaneous blood flow, hence a tiny pain). B5 is needed for CoA production, a major metabolite in the Krebs cycle. It catapulted my caloric intake from 2000 to 3000 kcal (I am tall, I need much).

    I had skin probs from Mg-Cl products because cheap ones are not fully cleaned. This one works for me. I found out that I benefit from copious amounts of Mg-Cl: 30mg of bath granules per day! - diluted in very little water and smeared on skin, much more effective than bathing). B5 and Mg-Cl (and all other vitamins, aminos and minerals and the agp-choline) go on the naked legs, whereas borage and lecithin (and vit D and K2) go on the belly. I found it important to separate these two groups (water vs oil). The water group gets refreshed a few times with Mg-Cl water or plain water, the oil group 1x with olive oil extra virgine. The tshirt gets dirty inside from the oils, its important to change it every day to avoid skin irritation.

    Before you start, I strongly recommend you measure caloric and protein consumption. You will never know how your intake actually was before. Also, all this increase in intake came so smoothly in me, I just noticed it, first uncanningly, when looking at the crono charts. Do not push yourself to eat more! At least in me, this was always detrimental (digestion). Just eat to appetite. cronometer.com is for free, there is also a mobile app. Its a pain in the a... to weigh and log all foods, but you can do it for some days. The information is invaluable. And if your outcome is less than mine, say only a 10% increase, you will never know w/o crono.
    The increase came in me in a few days.

    Now you got all the details :):)
    Anyone trying this: I am curious to hear if and how it works for you. And if anyone has explanations why lecithin improves protein consumption in me, let me know!! (a bare guess: maybe lecithin/choline increases bile? Bile is effective against certain gut bugs, actually just the Prevotella that eat choline and carnitine, which is in meat, so I can eat more meat? Though, I didn't have any die-offs. Though, the effect could be preventative: they probably dont multiply well in chyme penetrated with bile)
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
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  14. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Well, methyl donors (lecithin, choline) activate B2 metabolism. B2 (together with B6 which it activates) break protein down.
     
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  15. Lolinda

    Lolinda after meals, I need to lay in bed for hours

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    Interesting! Break protein down in terms of digesting it in the gut? or in terms of doing sthg inside the body / liver / urea cycle?

    My other big happiness was the kinda miraculous restoration of my ability to eat meat when I dropped all carbs, that is, went on a ketogenic diet in 2014 as described above at the end of that long post. You made another two insightful comments that I think I could use to explain this "miracle":
    • uric acid and fructose share the same transporter (in the gut? for uptake into the blood?)
    • uric acid can be fermented by gut bugs (which ones?)
    I hope its ok to re-post these here. Now, when I changed to keto, I had almost imbearable die-offs. (I would have never made it if I wasnt in a no turn back health situation. Also I felt, at same time, so much better.) Now, die-off means lack of carbs caused bacteria to die. So then with your comments: maybe this was not only that carbs withdrawal killed them, but also that the transporter (what is the name of that transporter? and why cant it handle enough of both, fructose and uric acid? how can people handle ham with ananas or mango? :) ) was freed up to handle more uric acid, so less fermentation of uric acid?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2017
  16. jjxx

    jjxx Senior Member

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    @Lolinda Thank you soooooooooo much! I studied it immediately. I truly see the benefit of taking supplement bypass digestive system, especially for people with sluggish digestion.
    Iherb and other vendors don't carry agp choline anymore, they all have cdp choline. For agp choline, I didn't see how you make it transdermal: dissovle in water or oil, or Mgcl solution?
    Do you buy B5 powder somewhere, 7mg is a lot? I am currently taking 0.8g orally and would love to switched to transdermal or footbath. What's the rationale of dissolve B5 in saturated Mgcl soluiton? I assume other water soluable supplements you take transdermally are dissolved in water? It seems to me dosage must be increased greatly choosing transdermal delivery regardless of being water soluable or oil soluable? What's your estimated absorption rate of B5 7mg for instance?

    I am amazed hearing people benefiting greatly from certain diet. I have been on some diet very similar to what you tried without any noticeable effect. I guess I am so poorly nourished. Another odd thing I discovered recently is with resistance starch. I gobbled down 3 table spoons on my third day without any gassy issue which most people have. I don't know how to make out of it. Probably I am perfect with carbs, more so than most of population? Hardly convincing, considering I am notorious with sluggish digestive function. What else can be? Something is not right with me.
     
  17. Lolinda

    Lolinda after meals, I need to lay in bed for hours

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    I had none for a long time and now it struck me so badly. Good news: I found the imo best ever scientific explanation what actually causes lower back pain (the first answer on quora). And some very simple yoga exercises (the second answer), that were times better than a physiotherapist I saw a while ago:
    https://www.quora.com/What-are-good-treatments-for-acute-lower-back-pain
    After 5 min of doing the first 2 yoga exercises, I went from intense pain to almost fine: before, I barely could stand up and go to the toilet. After, I happily gardened my herb plants and did some shopping, even running 5 min (verrrry carefully).
    - Sorry for this complete off-topic on this thread. It was just such an impressive change so fast.... I am happy as a bird (and a bit more yoga and I can fly :D :D :D )....!!

    :angel::angel::angel::angel:
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
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  18. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    @Lolinda I am not sure about my English terms, but I differentiate between tailbone pain and lower back pain. The 1st is a drilling pain in the bone where you sit on, and the latter is more like stiffness and arthritic in nature.
     
  19. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I think both
    Uric acid transport and disease
    SLC2A9—a fructose transporter identified as a novel uric acid transporter
    Early-onset metabolic syndrome in mice lacking the intestinal uric acid transporter SLC2A9
    Purine and glycine metabolism by purinolytic clostridia
    I can't handle it anymore :( Can you?
    I suspect LC and keto diets cause uric acid dumping because there is no fructose nor exogenous glucose to transport, plus the diuretic effect of fats (fatty acids are acids ;) and organic acids solubilize uric acid, so it is very important to take magnesium to alkalize the urine to avoid kidney stones).

    Our balance between pancreas and gut secretions to stimulate bile seems to be defective. I am experimenting with digestive enzymes and just realized that I have been deficient of protease for a long time. Now I want to find out how to produce enough protease on my own.
    That is a tiny amount. RDI is 5 mg, and therapeutic doses usually start at 250 mg. In my own experience the DRI is enough, and anything I took above it seemed to produce deficiency symptoms. I think its has something to do with blocking receptors by excess (negative feedback loop?). As for folate, its function is to break protein down to purines at DRI amounts (400 - 800 mcg), but high doses (10 - 40 mg) actually inhibit the process.
    As for the activated forms of vitamins, taking P5P seemed to clear some receptors for me, since now I feel good effects of supplementing with plain B6 (1 - 2 mg a few days weekly).
    That is 800 mg.
    I have been completely gas-free for some years, than last year after abx this changed and seems to have become more "normal". However I am completely intolerant to resistant starch or other prebiotics - anything that increases methyl donors (butyrate) creates uric acid for me (methyl donors activate B2 which turns purines into UA).
     
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  20. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Perhaps a little off-topic but it continues the reasoning above:

    Interestingly the lack of pancreatic enzymes is linked with IBS-D, so this is why I think that for us with slow motility there is a problem with bile flow.
     
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