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SUNDAY TIMES 40 deaths linked to child vaccines over 7 years

Discussion in 'Other Health News and Research' started by natasa778, Oct 24, 2010.

  1. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    don't have a link, here is the full article:

    Childhood vaccinations are suspected to have left two children with brain injuries and caused 1,500 other neurological reactions
    Sarah-Kate Templeton, Health Editor
    Published: 2010-10-24 00:01:00.0


    George Fisher who died shortly after receiving the MMR vaccine (Adrian Sherratt)George Fisher, who died shortly after receiving the MMR vaccine (Adrian Sherratt) Forty children are suspected to have died as a result of receiving routine vaccines

    Forty children are suspected to have died as a result of receiving routine vaccines in the past seven years.

    Childhood vaccinations are also suspected of having left two young children with brain injuries and caused more than 1,500 other neurological reactions, including 11 cases of inflammation of the brain, 13 cases of epilepsy and a coma.

    The data, disclosed by the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Authority (MHRA) following a request by The Sunday Times under the Freedom of Information Act, shows that, since 2003, there have been more than 2,100 serious adverse reactions to childhood vaccines, some of which were life-threatening.

    Fifteen injections are given routinely to young children as part of the governments vaccination programme. They offer protection against diseases such as polio, diphtheria, mumps and measles.

    The MHRA says the deaths and neurological reactions should be seen in the context of the 90m doses of childhood vaccines which have been given since 2003.

    Details of the suspected deaths and neurological problems have been released just two months after a legal ruling forced the government to accept that its vaccination programme had left a baby severely brain damaged.

    Thirteen years after first refusing to acknowledge that Robert Fletcher, now 18, had been left severely brain damaged by the MMR vaccine for measles, mumps and rubella, the government was forced to pay him compensation.

    Roberts mother, Jackie, who founded Jabs, a support group for families with vaccine-damaged children, said: It is generally accepted within the medical profession that only about 10% of suspected adverse reactions get put forward in the correct way. It is accepted by the Department of Health that the full scale of the problem is far greater than these statistics show.

    Jake Dukes, 18, from Weymouth, Dorset, was left severely brain damaged by the whooping cough vaccine, which he received when he was two months old. He has the mental age of a toddler, is incontinent and uses a wheelchair. He was awarded 91,500 under the governments vaccine damage payment scheme.

    The family of George Fisher are convinced that the MMR vaccine contributed to the death of their 18-month-old son. He died 10 days after being inoculated in January 2006.

    His mother, Sarah, a hotel receptionist from Cheltenham, Gloucestershire, believes that an existing illness made him susceptible to an adverse reaction to the vaccine. Four months before receiving the jab, George had suffered a fit brought on by a high fever. Sarah said: George had had a bad virus. He had been very ill and had suffered a convulsion due to his high temperature. I dont think it was just the MMR, but I think it was a factor in his death.
  2. alice1

    alice1 Senior Member

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    They know the potential harm in vaccines and yet the opnion is better to lose a few than a lot.What happens to these children when they grow older and grow up.
    Do they become us !!
    Shame!
  3. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    There's been a lot of news lately about the Gardasil vaccine -- and how many deaths (over 50 so far, and it's only been around for a few years) and illnesses have been attributed to that. Some young women died within weeks of getting the vaccine.

    Here's an interesting and troubling article on it:

    http://www.jillstanek.com/by-barbara-hollingsworth-of-th.html

    and this:

    "FDA records show that 16 new deaths (including four suicides) and 3,589 “adverse reactions” tied to Gardasil were reported in the 16 months between May 2009 and September 2010. The adverse reactions included 213 cases of permanent disability. The FDA also received 25 reports of paralyzing Guillian Barre Syndrome in young girls and women who had received the vaccine."

    http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/o...l-related-deaths-104022043.html#ixzz13JbmxLhB

    That's in just ONE YEAR.

    I heard from a friend the other day that they're now suggesting that BOYS be vaccinated with it...anything to expand their market and increase profits. Truly shameful.
  4. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi Alice,

    I was reading on some "spiritual principles" at one time, and came across one I believe to be true and that I think relates to the whole sordid history of vaccinations. It goes something like:

    "If even one person has to suffer to somehow further "the greater good", then you can be assured that the greater good is not in alignment with spiritual laws and principles."

    This "for the greater good" is often bandied about for various causes. In the end, it rings pretty hollow, especially when the injured minority often have to suffer devastating consequences.

    Wayne
  5. ixchelkali

    ixchelkali Senior Member

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    I don't think it's a matter of sacrificing children's lives for the greater good. If 40 children have died from the vaccine out of 93,000 given, that's 1 child of every 2325. Without the vaccine, 1 to 2 children out of 1000 who get measles die, and 1 out of 1000 get encephalitis. So even though some children may still die from it, the vaccine does improve each child's chance of survival.

    Let's see, with the vaccine my child has a 1 in 2325 chance of dying; without the vaccine, a 1 in 1000 chance of dying. Which am I going to choose? Granted, I'm glad to have the option of choosing.

    And that's not even taking into account some of the other complications from measles. I'm old enough to remember what it was like before the vaccine. My own sister had her eyesight damaged from measles. It's not as though measles is a trivial illness. I think people forget how bad those epidemics were.

    What I don't think is morally supportable is for a parent to decide they can risk not immunizing their child, because all the parents who have immunized their child have reduced the risk of contagion. That's not even risking one to save many, it's risking many to save one.
  6. urbantravels

    urbantravels disjecta membra

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    Would all of the anti-vaccine people on this board feel the same way if our own illness could have been prevented by a vaccine?

    There is a pervasive illusion that our bodies are somehow inviolate *except* when we get a vaccination. That we aren't breathing, swallowing, and living in millions of infectious particles every day, not to mention other pollutants that we are exposed to on a daily basis. But somehow vaccinations are seen as having this unimaginable power to do us ill.

    I find it ironic that the only reason we can live in this illusory bubble is *because* of vaccinations, which allow most children to grow up instead of dying like flies from infectious disease. I think it's a mental block; we kid ourselves that widespread death from infectious disease is a thing of the past, but there is still a deep-seated fear of infection, which manifests itself by attaching to inappropriate targets, like vaccines.

    This fear also manifests itself in the form of an overly dismissive attitude toward, say, "rumor viruses" that are hard to find. And have you ever noticed how much relish people take in scoffing whenever some infectious disease fails to kill enough people for them to personally notice? "That swine flu wasn't such a big deal after all." "SARS, remember that? Whatever happened with that?" "Chronic fatigue syndrome, remember how big that was in the 80s? I guess it was a fad, like shoulder pads."

    The Big Fear about communicable disease is part of us and we can't get rid of it. But it seems in these times we act on that fear in some pretty screwed-up ways. The Big Denial leads to both hysteria about vaccines *and* extremely closed minds on the subject of "mystery diseases."
  7. HowToEscape?

    HowToEscape? Senior Member

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    We can always do what the enlightened nation of Nigeria did and stop vaccinating against polio.

    <snip>
    Nigeria's decision not to immunize children caused virus to spread

    Several years ago, northern Nigeria's reluctance to immunize its children against polio caused the wild virus to spread to neighboring countries. Religious and political leaders suspended vaccinations claiming the polio vaccine was contaminated and could spread HIV/AIDS and sterilize girls.

    Dr. Aloudat says the spread of most of these recent cases of polio also comes from Nigeria, the last endemic country in Africa.
    <snip>
    --- from the Red Cross Senior Officer for Health in Emergencies, Tammam Aloudat

    So if 10 or 15 neighboring countries have polio outbreaks, so what? We all know that polio is caused by (take your pick)
    - a vast Western nation conspiracy
    - bioweapons gone wild
    - disrupted energy balance
    - not following the vegan/cave man/non-gmo/high carb/low carb/gluten free/shake'n bake miracle diet (pick one , or at least one at a time ;-)

    Mysteriously, the polio outbreak has slowed after an aggressive vaccination campaign. Therefore the giant conspiracy must be temporarly inactivating the bioweapons so they can spread their deadly vaccine!

    Of course you'll never see this covered in the MSM!1!1!
  8. dannybex

    dannybex Senior Member

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    on the other hand...

    ...would people on this board be upset if their disease may have been cause or in part triggered by a vaccine, or 'overvaccinations'?

    Andrea Whittemore-Goad was improving enough to the point where she and her doctor decided she was well enough to go to college, but relapsed suddenly after getting the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine. Quoting her:

    "I finally got to a decent place of health at age 17 . Because I was well my doctor at the time had me get the MMR, this left me in a wheelchair."

    I don't mean to dismiss your argument Urbantravels -- you make a good point -- vaccinations have saved lives -- but there's always many points to consider, and some folks have also wondered if the Swine Flu vaccine in the mid-1970's perhaps may have contributed to the sudden increase in CFS/ME cases. I don't know...just throwing it into the mix.

    Regarding the Gardasil vaccine, it's acknowledged that it was rushed through the FDA approval process, so I personally think with all the deaths in just a few years, that that needs to be investigated.
  9. urbantravels

    urbantravels disjecta membra

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    No one would argue that due diligence to make vaccines as safe as possible should be carried out to the utmost. Or that we should uncritically accept that vaccines are 100% safe and never have unintended consequences.

    But even if vaccines might play some role in triggering ME/CFS, it would take a lot to convince me that vaccines deliver something that is *uniquely* dangerous in contrast to all the other "insults" our immune systems deal with all the time ... and still more to convince me that it is both a necessary and sufficient cause for ME/CFS on its own.

    If Person X got ME/CFS after a vaccine, and Person Y got it after a bad bout of flu, and Person Z got it after she gave birth to a child, that doesn't tell me that OMG VACCINES DID IT AND WE SHOULDN'T GET THEM. That tells me that something is fundamentally awry with the immune system that might allow these events to tip the balance into a disease process, and we need to look harder to find the root cause of the problem. There is no practical way to protect a person against everything that might give their immune system a jolt.

    If we weren't getting vaccines, we would be susceptible to the diseases themselves, which would be a *much* bigger assault on our immune systems. Besides being way, way, way more likely to kill us outright than a vaccine (a non-zero possibility, but still a vanishingly small one.)
  10. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Gardasil Researcher Speaks Out

    Hi Urbantravels,

    Just to be clear, I fully believe vaccinations have been very effective at preventing a lot of disease, pain and death. What I have a major problem with is the various laws and regulations that mandate vaccination programs that have not gone through the vigorous due diligence you mention.

    I cannot understand, for the life of me, why there's been such great resistance within conventional vaccine thinking to the idea that vaccine programs should be vigorously monitored so they can be made safer and more effective. Why is there no well-funded on-going research to improve them and reduce the associated dangers and permanent life-long injuries?

    Just look at the whole outrageous Gardisil fiasco/debacle which I find particulary disturbing. And many legislators (mostly men) on a state level have wanted to make it mandatory for girls as young as eleven to get this. Most of them probably have no idea there's no evidence that the supposed immunity even lasts five years. I just think it's criminal that young girls are being given this vaccine, when they and/or their parents are not being fully educated on the risk/reward aspects of it.

    Below is just an introduction to an article from CBS News, entitled "Gardasil Researcher Speaks Out":

    Amid questions about the safety of the HPV vaccine Gardasil one of the lead researchers for the Merck drug is speaking out about its risks, benefits and aggressive marketing.

    Dr. Diane Harper says young girls and their parents should receive more complete warnings before receiving the vaccine to prevent cervical cancer. Dr. Harper helped design and carry out the Phase II and Phase III safety and effectiveness studies to get Gardasil approved, and authored many of the published, scholarly papers about it. She has been a paid speaker and consultant to Merck. It’s highly unusual for a researcher to publicly criticize a medicine or vaccine she helped get approved.


    Dr. Harper joins a number of consumer watchdogs, vaccine safety advocates, and parents who question the vaccine’s risk-versus-benefit profile. She says data available for Gardasil shows that it lasts five years; there is no data showing that it remains effective beyond five years.


    This raises questions about the
    CDC’s recommendation that the series of shots be given to girls as young as 11-years old. “If we vaccinate 11 year olds and the protection doesn’t last... we’ve put them at harm from side effects, small but real, for no benefit,” says Dr. Harper. “The benefit to public health is nothing, there is no reduction in cervical cancers, they are just postponed, unless the protection lasts for at least 15 years, and over 70% of all sexually active females of all ages are vaccinated.” She also says that enough serious side effects have been reported after Gardasil use that the vaccine could prove riskier than the cervical cancer it purports to prevent. Cervical cancer is usually entirely curable when detected early through normal Pap screenings.

    Dr. Scott Ratner and his wife, who’s also a physician, expressed similar concerns as Dr. Harper in an
    interview with CBS News last year. One of their teenage daughters became severely ill after her first dose of Gardasil. Dr. Ratner says she’d have been better off getting cervical cancer than the vaccination. “My daughter went from a varsity lacrosse player at Choate to a chronically ill, steroid-dependent patient with autoimmune myofasciitis. I’ve had to ask myself why I let my eldest of three daughters get an unproven vaccine against a few strains of a nonlethal virus that can be dealt with in more effective ways.”

    (The article continues at the above link)

    .......................................................................

    I have no problems with voluntary vaccines. But to make them mandatory when there's many known and unknown risks strikes me as over the top. To my earlier point, some will say vaccinations should be mandatory because they are necessary for the greater good. I just can't agree, and I think it fails to recognize an important spiritual principle. As with all matters of a spiritual nature, it should be an individual choice.

    Best Regards, Wayne
  11. Rosemary

    Rosemary Senior Member

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    Polio surge in Nigeria after vaccine virus mutates

    AP Medical Writer Maria Cheng

    LONDON – Polio, the dreaded paralyzing disease stamped out in the industrialized world, is spreading in Nigeria. And health officials say in some cases, it's caused by the vaccine used to fight it.

    In July, the World Health Organization issued a warning that this vaccine-spread virus might extend beyond Africa. So far, 124 Nigerian children have been paralyzed this year — about twice those afflicted in 2008.

    The polio problem is just the latest challenge to global health authorities trying to convince wary citizens that vaccines can save them from dreaded disease. For years, myths have abounded about vaccines — that they were the Western world's plan to sterilize Africans or give them AIDS. The sad polio reality fuels misguided fears and underscores the challenges authorities face using a flawed vaccine.

    Nigeria and most other poor nations use an oral polio vaccine because it's cheaper, easier, and protects entire communities.

    But it is made from a live polio virus — albeit weakened — which carries a small risk of causing polio for every million or so doses given. In even rarer instances, the virus in the vaccine can mutate into a deadlier version that ignites new outbreaks.

    The vaccine used in the United States and other Western nations is given in shots, which use a killed virus that cannot cause polio.

    So when WHO officials discovered a polio outbreak in Nigeria was sparked by the polio vaccine itself, they assumed it would be easier to stop than a natural "wild" virus.

    They were wrong.

    In 2007, health experts reported that amid Nigeria's ongoing outbreak of wild polio viruses, 69 children had also been paralyzed in a new outbreak caused by the mutation of a vaccine's virus.

    Back then, WHO said the vaccine-linked outbreak would be swiftly overcome — yet two years later, cases continue to mount. They have since identified polio cases linked to the vaccine dating back as far as 2005.

    It is a worrying development for officials who hope to end polio epidemics in India and Africa by the end of this year, after missing several earlier deadlines. "It's very disturbing," said Dr. Bruce Aylward, who heads the polio department at the World Health Organization.

    This year, the number of polio cases caused by the vaccine has doubled: 124 children have so far been paralyzed, compared to 62 in 2008, out of about 42 million children vaccinated. For every case of paralysis, there are hundreds of other children who don't develop symptoms, but pass on the disease.

    When Nigerian leaders suspended polio vaccination in 2003, believing the vaccine would sterilize their children and infect them with HIV, Nigeria exported polio to nearly two dozen countries worldwide, making it as far away as Indonesia.

    Nigeria resumed vaccinations in 2004 after tests showed the vaccine was not contaminated with estrogen, anti-fertility agents or HIV.

    Experts have long believed epidemics unleashed by a vaccine's mutated virus wouldn't last since the vaccine only contains a weakened virus strain — but that assumption is coming under pressure. Some experts now say that once viruses from vaccines start circulating they can become just as dangerous as wild viruses.

    "The only difference is that this virus was originally in a vaccine vial," said Olen Kew, a virologist at the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

    The oral polio vaccine used in Nigeria and elsewhere contains a mild version of the live virus. Children who have been vaccinated pass the virus into the water supply through urine or feces. Other children who then play in or drink that water pick up the vaccine's virus, which gives them some protection against polio.

    But in rare instances, as the virus passes through unimmunized children, it can mutate into a strain dangerous enough to ignite new outbreaks, particularly if immunization rates in the rest of the population are low.

    Kew said genetic analysis proves mutated viruses from the vaccine have caused at least seven separate outbreaks in Nigeria.

    Though Nigeria's coverage rates have improved, up to 15 percent of children in the north still haven't been vaccinated against polio. To eradicate the disease, officials need to reach about 95 percent of the population.

    Nigeria's vaccine-linked outbreak underlines the need to stop using the oral polio vaccine as soon as possible, since it can create the very epidemics it was designed to stop, experts say. WHO is researching other vaccines that might work better, but none is on the horizon.

    Until a better vaccine is ready, WHO and U.S. CDC officials say the oral vaccine is the best available tool to eradicate polio and that when inoculation rates are nearly 100 percent it works fine.

    "Nigeria is almost a case study in what happens when you don't follow the recommendations," Kew said.

    Since WHO and partners began their attempt to rid the world of polio in 1988, officials have slashed the disease's incidence by more than 99 percent.

    But numerous deadlines have been missed and the number of cases has been at a virtual standstill since 2000. Critics have also wondered whether it is time to give up, and donors may be sick of continuing to fund a program with no clear endgame.

    "Eradication is a gamble," said Scott Barrett, an economist at Columbia University who has studied polio policies. "It's all or nothing ... and there is a very real risk this whole thing may fall apart."

    Aside from Nigeria, polio persists in a handful of other countries, including Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Chad, Angola and Sudan.

    Aylward agreed the Nigeria situation was another unwelcome hurdle, but was confident eradication was possible. "We still have a shot," he said. "We're throwing everything
  12. Enid

    Enid Senior Member

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    Mmm - the plot thickens, just thinking too of all those who have fallen by the wayside here for raising doubts and not toeing the "official" line. There are findings now of contaminations - the methods used in the production of some being unsafe.
  13. Athene

    Athene Never give up

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    A few salient points...

    QUOTE
    "For years, myths have abounded about vaccines — that they were the Western world's plan to sterilize Africans or give them AIDS. "

    It is easy to understand how this "myth" came about. It wasn't until relatively recently that vaccination programmes in Africa gave each person a clean needle, instead of sticking the same old needle into one child after another in a line. In a community where just one vaccinated person was infected with AIDS, this would create an epidemic.
    When I was eleven years old in the UK in 1979 I was vaccinated at school against rubella. The nurse used each needle for three girls before getting a new one. This practise did not stop in the UK until the mid eighties, when AIDS was the biggest media circus ever seen and people started refusing vaccinations with shared needles. In Africa, it took much longer for this to change.

    ixchelkali, your mathematics is fine, but the data it is based on is not.
    The incidence of severe illness or disability from vaccines is grossly under-reported and under-acknowledged by the governemnt, the pharma companies that produce vaccines and, often, the medical profession. Also, the efficacy of vaccines is never 100%. For most, it is from 90% to 70%. There will always be a percentage of the population who do not have immunity to those deadly diseases we all hope to avoid.
    Might these two factors together possibly tip the balance and make one's chances of meeting a horrible demise be equal, whether or not they are vaccinated with the MMR or Gardasil? Of course the answer is that I don't know, and neither does anyone else.
    My own experience of ineffective vaccines occured when I was 16 and got whooping cough. There was a small epidemic and nine children died whilst I was in hospital. The doctor told us that we had become far iller from it that we would have done, specifically because we had been vacinated but the vaccine had clearly not worked.

    My own view of vaccinations overall is mixed.
    I am not against all vaccines per se. Vaccination has elimiated smallpox and made many other deadly or disabling illnesses rare instead of commonplace.
    On the other hand, vaccination has become big business and, where huge profits are on offer, the temptation to chase money at the expense of some individuals must be very great.
    It is also noteworthy that the rise of allergies to the modern epidemic proportions has perfectly matched the increasing prevalence of intensive vaccination programmes, but only in the developed world - in poorer countries where they have fewer vaccinations, allergies are extremely rare, as they were in Europe and the USA up until the 1970s.
    I certainly do not think vaccination should be stopped, but I think our governments have the moral responsibility to ensure unbiased research and data collection is carried out, and to try to make them safer for us all.
  14. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    excellent post, a couple of things to add:

    The "statistic" of 1 in 1000 children who get measles dying from it is dubious to say the least.

    The great big elephant that is always missed by vaccine 'defenders' is that A GREAT MAJORITY of those who get diseases during measles etc outbreaks have previously been vaccinated. Often with full follow up boosters.

    to summarise:

    • Deaths and adverse events from diseases for which there is a commercial vaccine are frequently EXAGGERATED (ie statistics from third world malnourished populations are presented as if having relevance to children living in developed countries)
    • The effectiveness of those vaccines is far from 100%
    • Deaths and adverse events from vaccines for those diseases are grossly UNDERREPORTED (or reported by parents but ignored/not recorded by doctors)
  15. natasa778

    natasa778 Senior Member

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    Smallpox is an excellent example. The vaccine was/is full of adverse events, they were known at the time and OPENLY discussed by everyone. Patients were well aware that by getting this vaccine they are opening themselves to the possibility of the XYZ (autism amongst other things was reported in the literature). The risk of dying or suffering XYZ from smallpox was also well known and openly discussed.

    So even though the vaccine was full of known and considerable health risks, there was a clear and honest and openly available risk-to-benefit ratio of the infection versus the vaccine.

    Nothing of the kind can be said for any of the diseases versus vaccines we routinely administer to our children today. See my points above.
  16. alice1

    alice1 Senior Member

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    My personal problem with vaccines is that I became accutely ill after recieving them.I don't believe it was the cause but as someone pointed out it was the trigger.Does that mean 'well it was just one of those things'not on this end it doesn't.The last 24 years of my life have been beyond tough not only for me but for the ones who love me.
    Aside from the viruses what also concerns me are the preservatives being used.Mercury is one.
    The government recieves payment from the pharmacuticals for each vaccine that is given and to me that speaks volumes.
    As for parents I can understand wanting your child to be as safe as possible just as the parents did when their girls took Gardasil.There are always two sides to the coin.
  17. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Thanks Athene for your great overall post. Thanks to others as well for your salient points. So much to comment on, but the above points pretty much get to the jist of my thinking.

    For example, there have been many, many reported incidences of PWCs becoming chronically ill after receiving various kinds of vaccinations. How many of these incidences have actually been reported to some kind of huge database diligently maintained by the reporting agencies involved? My best guess would be none. When you extrapolate for other maladies reported after receiving vaccinations, it makes a very strong case for the gross under-reporting of adverse effects.

    A counter argument is often made that there is "no scientific proof" of many of these reported incidences as being causal. To me, that's just a disingenuous way of deflecting any kind of constructive input into the dilemma facing an "immature science". By that, I am referring to modern vaccination medical science as still being in its infancy.

    It seems part of the debate (perhaps unarticulated) is whether vaccinations programs as we know them are a "mature" science or one that is just beginning to be understood. If we are to safely take advantage of the benefits that are to be derived, I believe it's necessary to realize how little we still know about so much of the science and ramifications to so many people.

    MONEY.... Even a cursory look at the vaccination "apparatus" reveals it is riddled with the influence of money, power, politics and corruption. As such, I do not want "THEIR" results and conclusions to be forced onto me or anyone else. I want to mention however, that I'm am certain there are some very dedicated and ethical scientists who are doing their best to weed out some of the corrosive influences I just mentioned. But it is an ongoing battle.

    I feel pretty strongly about this whole topic, because I feel a big component of my illness may have stemmed from some childhood vaccinations. I was so sick for so many months, and only gradually began to improve over the years. But I think a lot of damage done at that time eventually set the stage for my developing ME/CFS.

    I just wish the vaccination "apparatus" would slow down and give more consideration to how they are constantly venturing into unchartered waters with their new vaccination programs, with some many likely adverse results. But they generally come across to me as seeming to know it all, and referring to information that contradicts their own viewpoints as unscientific. I just don't want these kinds of people mandating that me or my family should be forced into their way of thinking.

    Wayne
  18. ixchelkali

    ixchelkali Senior Member

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    Quite possibly. I can't defend my sources. I got the figures of the deaths from the vaccine from the Sunday Times article that prompted this thread. I got the figures of deaths without vaccination from the CDC. Somehow I don't have the automatic, blind acceptance of their data that I once had. :rolleyes:

    I also don't have a blind confidence in vaccines. For one thing, I'm one of the rare people who doesn't develop an immunity to rubella and getting a vaccination wouldn't change that, so I know they don't work 100% of the time. I also may be one of the people whose ME/CFS was triggered by a vaccine. So I have an appreciation of what the consequences can be.

    But I still think it is not a fair characterization to suggest that vaccines are designed to risk the individual for the greater good. They are intended to help the individual as well as the larger community. I think it's more accurate to say that their effectiveness is overstated and their risks understated. And yes, governments have colluded with pharma in covering up some collossal screw-ups. But overall, I believe they have saved many more lives than they've cost.
  19. alex3619

    alex3619 Senior Member

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    Hi all

    I still think that vaccines are generally a good idea for most of the public, but I agree that the research showing this is often shoddy, there are cover-ups, and too much money is involved for this to be reported accurately. I am also distrustful of live vaccines, and some of the adjuvants and preservatives are really nasty.

    In my own case I think my CFS trigger was initially measles encephalitis - the measles infected my brain and I was out of it for something like a week. On the other hand, in the same time period (I was 7) I had a dose of oral polio vaccine. Who knows if that had an impact? I certainly don't.

    This is a complex debate, and all of us are operating without most of the facts: its not a criticism but an analysis. In the end vaccination is a gamble, but because of poor scientific research in this area, we don't really know the odds.

    One caveat: I don't think anyone with CFS should ever have a hepatitis B vaccine.

    Bye
    Alex

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