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Sulphur intolerance and phase 2 detox pathway

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by Basil, Sep 17, 2013.

  1. Basil

    Basil

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    I am very confused. Sulphur is required for the phase 2 detox pathway in the liver, but CBS upregulation and molybdenum deficiency require sulphur reduction from the diet and supplements. When CBS is regulated, methylation can then detoxify toxins properly with appropriate supplementation, but is there enough sulphur available for the phase 2 detoxification of those toxins?

    I was diagnosed with bilateral breast cancer in 2006, so ever since have been basing my diet and supplements around brassicas and broccoli sprouts. I tested as fast phase 1 and slow phase 2 many years ago. I don't mind limiting the brassicas if I can tolerate a sulphur limiting diet, but I was hoping to include a broccoli sprout extract for all it's health benefits, including helping to fix impaired DNA. I would have to exclude it I believe if on a low S diet. How do I support phase 2 liver detox on a low S diet?

    And under what circumstances are epsom baths a good idea, and when not? I was doing these regularly, and since stopping and every few days having Thorne Basic B complex, and occasionally a drop of Seeking Health's Methylcobalamin drops (potassium sorbate and soy derived phosphatidyl choline....aargh!), I am having trouble with calf muscle soreness and extremely weak legs. Don't yet know if this is magnesium, calcium or potassium deficiency or none of these, but I need to figure it out or I'll be going into a wheelchair.

    Jenny
  2. Valentijn

    Valentijn Activity Level: 3

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    Amersfoort, Netherlands
    The CBS "upregulation" has only been shown to be beneficial, by reducing risk of diseases associated with elevated homocysteine. And either way, the impact that C699T or any other CBS SNP has is rather minimal - we're talking about a couple percentage points different in function, not 10-20 fold upregulation.

    Yasko's claims regarding CBS C699T are completely unsubstantiated, and it is extremely unlikely that they are accurate. Hence you can probably safely ignore any advice coming from the Yasko direction regarding the CBS gene, and stick with whatever else you need to do regarding sulfur.
  3. Basil

    Basil

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    I am not convinced that some people might not do better on a low S diet. It would appear Yasko and many others who work with patients find this to be the case, though I realise that the science behind their explanation may be questionable. I suspect, based on Andy Cutler's work, that it might be because of mercury toxicity rather than any particular polymorphism, or even an interaction between the two.

    Anecdotally, some with CFS are sensitive to Sulphur, and I may be one of those. A few days to weeks of a low S diet will tell me, but I don't want to compromise liver detox pathways in the process. One man in Brisbane Australia has turned around 20 years of CFS... in days... by discovering a sensitivity to sulfites. I almost certainly am sensitive to sulfites. I am hoping an allergist that I am seeing in November will be able to confirm this, as sulfites are not always labelled and seem to be just about everywhere.

    When I am not sure who is right, I will often go the safest route, and it seems to me that a few weeks of sulphur restriction, in the context of 35 years of catastrophic illness, is not too great a price to pay if it may help me at all.

    There are not a few practitioners who have worked with hundreds of people on their methylation pathways, who believe that this is an important first step.

    I am simply too ill to make mistakes here.

    Jenny
    Star-Anise and Valentijn like this.
  4. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    I had to limit sulphur for a couple of years. My problems started in the summer of 2009 when I became increasingly itchy and then insanely itchy. I had 4 back scratchers - one upstairs, one down, one at work and a little one for my pocket. My Dr told me to use hand lotion.
    2010 things were the same. I tested (+) for mercury and began reading about sulphur. One day I grabbed a cider from the fridge and sat on the couch and the itchiness increased - I read the label and it had sulphites in it. 23andme do not test for SUOX but they don't have to as I know what my result will be. 'I gradually became itchy to corn as well. And then potatoes.
    In the worst of it the effects of mercury, exposure to sulphur, and post-exertional fatigue were indistinguishable. All produced more brain fog and fatigue.
    2 3/4 years of chelation and I am able to have a glass of wine now. I can not have some coconut products but can have eggs again and cauliflower etc. I await winter when dry skin makes matters worse but I have my fingers crossed.
    During this time I was diagnosed with over 100 polyps in the colon. I read about curcumin @ 8 gms/day helping people with Familial Adenomatous Polyposis. I was on this for about 7 months until I just couldn't go any longer. I had sensitized myself and curcumin was making me insanely itchy as well. In the end, it did not help and I lost the colon anyway. Worth a shot....at least I tried. I still have to be very careful with turmeric.
    I can have most foods now - not gluten and I am not sure about dairy. Corn is unfriendly but I can have some corn starch. This is pretty good for a guy who had salad and chicken 3 meals a day for weeks on end.
    Man did I get off topic! Anyway, yes sometimes there is no choice but to limit sulphur....good now, but still take molybdenum and butylate which helps with the ammonia build-up from a wonky sulphation pathway.
    Star-Anise likes this.
  5. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    stridor
    Thanks so much for your response! I'm just starting this journey. Just had last mercury filling removed about one month ago, & getting ready to do a challenge test to see what my heavy metal levels are. Did u test as well? And what chelating agents have you been using? Just curious as most are sulfur based....
  6. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    Congratulations on having your amalgams removed. I think that you will look back on that being the single most important thing that you did for your health.
    Having my fillings out dropped me. I think that you and I have different stories. I followed the Cutler Protocol and used ALA and DMSA - both are sulphur based. I can't comment on this much I was so sick that I would not have been able to tell if these products had a (-) effect.
    I had a Challenge Test and I lost the ability to speak for a minute. It was bad enough that the ND who did it told me that while I needed chelation, he wanted someone else to do it. Hair Tests are safer but need to be interpreted. The folks over on FDC (yahoo) can help with this. There is a wealth of knowledge, experience and information there.
    Amalgam Illness by Dr Andrew Cutler is a must have even if you decide to do something else. There is a ton of information on mercury.
    Star-Anise likes this.
  7. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Basil

    Hi there, yes I have been concerned about this too, and I don't have any answers unfortunately, but what I can do is share what seems to be working for me.
    I think that Calcium D Glucarate helps with phase 2 detox, and I have benefited greatly from taking this. I take quite a bit (4500 mg/day), but did not start this high. As well I have found Citrus Bioflavonoids to really help with liver detox, but I think this is more of a phase 1 thing. Lastly, I have been eating as much citrus as I can handle, drinking lemon water, hot lemon tea with honey, and adding ginger to the mix, as ginger helps with bile production.....

    I also think that generally supporting glutathione production, which is accomplished by supporting the methylation pathway, and if CBS is a problem, supporting that pathway as well helps... from a useful random website:
    http://www.detox-explained.com/liver-detox.html
    I have found direct glutathione supp to be too "zippy" for me - like a bad caffeine buzz & then crash. But from what I read supporting it naturally through working with the CBS pathway, and supporting overall methylation tends to be more stable.

    I have been fortunate to be able to afford to go for Vitamin C IV treatments, which I understand is a classic liver treatment for hepatitis. They really are so very supportive, and I feel amazing afterwords. My naturopath reinforced what I have always heard as well that sweating is a good detoxifier for liver, and I have been thinking about doing some infared sauna treatments, especially as we are going into the dark season here up north in Canada.

    I just asked her what she knows about castor oil - as it seems that this is also used externally on skin via a cloth, and then a heat source to encourage liver detox. She didn't have direct experience, but thought it would help by encouraging increased circulation in the area....

    This is my main focus right now... hopefully some of this info was helpful xoxo Star :)

    p.s.
    • I have avoided epsom salts when I started CBS protocol due to sulfites... not sure if helpful...
    • There is a non-soy derived PS if you would like it from sunflowers...
    http://www.nowfoods.com/Sunflower-Lecithin-1200mg-Soy-Free-Non-GMO-100-Softgels.htm

    • My calf soreness was really related to both magnesium and potassium. I supplemented with both for some time, and will continue to do so whenever this crops up. Right now both are on the shelf for a bit, because I have been focusing on some other things. I found magnesium oil to really help, I would massage it into my legs whenever they would get crampy and fatigue-y. It's likely that you are quite low in magnesium, apparently it's quite common.
    :)
    Violeta likes this.
  8. Basil

    Basil

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    Thank you for all replies. They went to the wrong place in my email folder, so I've only just read them.

    I have benefited greatly from castor oil packs, but tend not to do them often enough because of the mess. I can feel the beneficial effects on peristalsis of my colon, but I have to be careful as I can get a strong detox reaction from them...but from just anything nowadays as well.

    I am doing the calcium d glucarate, didn't realise it helped phase 2. Only doing 250mg, so must increase it. You are on a huge dose, is that safe? Thorne products are outrageously expensive in Oz, but have found I can get them at a fraction of the price via iHerb.

    I can't handle citrus unfortunately, but will try more ginger.

    Not doing any chelating as I am too ill to function if I do too much in the way of detox. My husband went away on business recently, and I had to pay someone to come in and care for me some of the time.

    Testing showed I was riboflavin deficient....not enough in Thorne's Basic B Complex...so have added B2 but now have an intensification of sore mouth and throat, burning mouth syndrome and mouth ulcers. This is not fun is it?

    Jenny
  9. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    Basil Does the riboflavin change the colour of your pee?
    The second time I bottomed out on B2, I was taking 100 mg a day! I remember thinking, "hey, wait a minute didn't my pee used to go bright yellow with this stuff?" I decided that I would take it until my urine turned colour and the first day it took 1800 mg and the second 1600 mg. In the end, probiotics helped me.
  10. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    So too much B2 causes the same symptoms as a deficiency of B2? (ariboflavinosis) I've seen that with vitamin a, too. So that's not uncommon, but why? Does one need to find a missing cofactor to help out when you are getting symptoms from "too much"?
  11. UM MAN

    UM MAN

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    I was waiting for someone to mention Calcium d-Glucarate, because I have a CdG anecdotal tale.
    I had a bottle of CdG sitting around and since two of my CYP1B1's are Homo, I decided to take
    one 500mg pill a day. I'm hypothyroid, and on 2.5grains NDT. After three days on CdG I got hoarse, tired, and my thyroid glands got sore at night. So 6 days on CdG, and continuing to feel worse, I finally though about
    if the CdG could be also detoxing(purging) my T3 and T4 besides estrogen. I stopped the CdG, and
    my hypothyroid symptoms stopped in a couple of days. So my warning about CdG is it is not selective
    about which hormones it detoxes.
    Star-Anise likes this.
  12. stridor

    stridor Senior Member

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    @ Violeta
    No, sorry..not written well. I was not absorbing B2 well and 100 mg was not enough because of this. I couldn't figure out why I was getting all the symptoms until it dawned on me that I wasn't peeing yellow. I need lots of B2 - not because my needs are greater but because I can't absorb it right.
  13. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    Hi Stridor, I was actually referring to Basil's mentioning that she was tested deficient in B2, but then took more than she had been taking, and came up with B2 deficiency symptoms.

    "Testing showed I was riboflavin deficient....not enough in Thorne's Basic B Complex...so have added B2 but now have an intensification of sore mouth and throat, burning mouth syndrome and mouth ulcers. This is not fun is it?"

    I'll recompute what you said, though, too.
  14. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Basil

    I haven't had any difficulties with the large dose that I'm on, but as UM MAN mentions above, some people may potentially have problems, as it makes sense to me, that it would increase the detoxification of all hormones & not be excluded to just estrogen... according to wiki this pathway deals with loads of stuff:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glucuronidation

    What I do know is if I decrease my dose too much then I do break out in acne (estrogen related I'm sure) & I start to get super bloated (water retention).

    I have recently found that ginger has been possible contributing to blood sugar lowering, & increased fatigue. I have now eliminated it again for now. I used to not be able to tolerate any citrus either. Even the smallest bit of citric acid or lemon would put me into major detox/fatigue. Then I went through a phase when I couldn't get enough. I do feel that the citrus has really really helped me. It was weird, one day, I just decided to reintroduce lemon, and then I was making lemon water obsessively & couldn't get enough in to me. It has since toned down a bit, but I mostly just squeeze the lemon onto whatever food I may be eating @ every meal...
  15. Wayne

    Wayne Senior Member

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    Hi Basil, I do "mini-castor oil packs" these days because they're easier and less messy. To reduce time and messiness, I put smaller amounts of castor oil on my skin (usually abdomen, liver/gb area), and cover with a wash cloth (s) or small towel (which absorbs most of the oil). I then put a thin towel over the top for a little extra protection from the oil, and then use a heating pad on top of that. The simplicity takes a lot of the "groan" out of thinking about doing these. The effectiveness seems to be very close to the original more time-consuming and messy directions I originally started with. To clean skin afterwards, I add a little baking soda to water and it scrubs off quite easily. --- BTW, castor oil and gentle baking soda scrubs are great for any kind of skin condition, including wrinkles.

    Best, Wayne
  16. Star-Anise

    Star-Anise Senior Member

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    Hey everyone, wanted to let you all know about my recent success with supplementing with liver glandulars, and I'm also trialing limonene. So far so good. In fact, I feel that my body just LOVES the limonene. It's my new favourite supplement :)
    http://www.wellnessresources.com/he...etabolism_detoxification_anxiety_breast_canc/
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21445622
    Seems to be really helping my edema & estrogen dominance symptoms & hopefully the insulin resistance issues that were cropping up as well with the estrogen dominance.
    I had to reduce my Calcium d-Glucarate due causing more fatigue. Although no tests, I'm sure it was starting to affect my thyroid as well, as I have T4-T3 conversion problems, or who knows, maybe it was just too strong.
    All the best, S
    whodathunkit likes this.
  17. whodathunkit

    whodathunkit Senior Member

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    Star, thanks for the tip! I will try, as I have estrogen dominance issues, as well.
  18. Violeta

    Violeta Senior Member

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    That's good news, Star! I didn't know limonene was good for all those things! Thank you for the information and link.

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