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Sulfur & Ammonia Protocol - are there side effects?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by ebethc, Sep 9, 2014.

  1. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    Hi -
    I have a +/+ CBS 699T mutation, worsened by MTHFR 1298 +/- mutation, other CBS +/+ mutations, and BHMT -02 & -08 +/+... The result is excess sulfur & ammonia.

    My doctor's prescribed protocol ..
    SUPPLEMENTS:
    · Chlorella (high ish dose) 3-6 daily.
    · Yucca (gut support, also may clear the ammonia directly) Dosage?

    CLEAR HEAVY METALS:
    · Zeolite: ACZ 2 sprays twice daily the first two weeks of each month-clear heavy metals, which compromise the other paths to breakdown ammonia

    SUPPORT LIVER & KIDNEY:
    · Silymarin Forte one daily,
    · Artichoke Extract one daily with food,
    · Celery (food) daily, possibly even celery juice

    CLEAR AMMONIA:
    · l-arginine 500mg in the AM (this esp helps the liver clear ammonia)
    · l-ornithine 500mg in the PM
    · l-citrulline 500mg in the PM

    All three of these amino acids are components of the urea cycle and can help in clearing ammonia toxicity by increasing urea formation (thus the need for also supporting the kidney in its ability to excrete urea). L-Ornithine is especially important to the brain, as the brain does not have an ornithine related enzyme found in the rest of the body, that is needed to detoxify ammonia by metabolizing it to urea.

    I started on Saturday, and at first felt great... Last night (monday) I had dry heaves, and today I feel lousy... aches, pains, fatigue, slightly queasy.. Could I be having a detox reaction? If not, it's some nasty bug.. I get sick A LOT.. likely due to my sulfur problems -- which I believe impede my glutathione production/efficacy.

    thanks
     
  2. Martial

    Martial Senior Member

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    Ventura, CA
    Sounds like a pretty solid protocol, the "herx" could really be anything though there are too many variables. Generally when I start something new I add things one at a time, this way you know easier what would cause an adverse reaction for you. Arginine can aid keeping viruses alive so you may want to think about swapping that out, Zeolite can affect RBC production, the other stuff doesn't really have much known reaction/interactions.
     
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  3. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    It could be salicylate sensitivity due to silymarin, artichoke and celery. I treated it successfully with magnesium, at least 600mg daily. Sodium bicarbonate baths also helped.

    izzy
     
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  4. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    So, is this protocol to get you ready for methylfolate? Usually MTHFR A1298C is treated with methylfolate. And TMG is often used for the BHMT-08. But maybe your moods are stable and your homocysteine is not high, so those wouldn't be needed.
    Have you thought of building up the doctor's protocol one category at a a time? Like 3-4 days on one set of things before adding another? At least then you could tell if one set of supplements was causing the problems and weed through that set one at a time.
     
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  5. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    ebethc likes this.
  6. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    Couple of more questions re CBS, if anyone can help. Thanks!
    1. Are there any green veggies that I can eat? Is broth okay? I love soup.... the low-thiol is SO restrictive.... no dairy, eggs, soy, nuts/seeds - which I can do - but giving up so many veggies is hard.. I don't know what to eat since I like to eat low carb, too. (don't want to eat lots of potatoes & yams..)

    2. Are epsom salts okay? I've read that SULFATES (as in Epsom Sulfate) are fine; it's the SULFITES that are bad, but I've read conflicting things...

    3. How do you build up glutathione if you aren't getting enough sulfur or processing it correctly? I get sick ALL the time.. I'm pretty sure my sulfur probs are the cause..

    4. Is the goal with a CBS mutation to get your body to process it better, or eliminate excess or both? How do you do this besides the low-thiol diet? My protocol seems focused on ammonia.


    @Martial - how does arginine keep viruses alive? I have EBV so I don't want to do anything to stimulate the virus..thanks!

    @Gondwanaland - how would I know if salicylates are a problem? Any SNP's to look at? I'm sensitive as far as I know.. thanks for the tip re magnesium!

    @Critterina :
    - I don't know if this is preparing me for methylfolate, but it's likely... I thought methyls were bad for someone w sulfur problems, so I was assuming I'd take Hydroxy or Adeno...no??.
    - My moods are mostly stable, other than being completely frustrated w my health & homocysteine is in the middle of the range. My biggest complaint is brain fog, because it affects my ability to work... Also, fatigue, joint pain & IBS.. My doctor said that she thinks I have chronic low grade ammonia poisoning, which I've thought myself.
    - What's the diff between DMG & TMG? when do you use which?
    - thanks!

    @ahmo - did you 100% sub malic for ornithin/argnine/citrulline? do you feel better, or do you just like taking less pills? thanks for sharing the info!
     
  7. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    The one green veg I'd settled on was zucchini:rolleyes:, and lettuce in my juice. Then I had to give up the zuke due to veg folate becoming a problem:(. It is indeed restrictive. I formerly loved Asian greens...

    Yes, I think I've been feeling better since the malic. but there are a few changes I made around the same time, including LAG as resistant starch, which I think is responsible for the well being. My sense is the malic is, as that thread suggested, a much cheaper option, and because it's operating at a different place in the cycle, my body is preferring it. Also now not using lysine, which I'd self-tested for most every day, even when I might test - for the others. the first one I used was yucca. since I was avoiding starch, I used tincture, which tasted yucky. When I discovered ornithine, I dropped the yucca.

    I also was using Yasko's CBS RNA formula. Now, after 1.5 years, use it only about 1/week. So improvements are happening. But my body still does not want any thiols.
     
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  8. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @ahmo
    I never felt terrible right after eating eggs or other high sulfur foods.... Does this mean I'm on the wrong track?

    Do I have to eat the low-sulfur / low-thiol diet for the rest of my life?

    What is LAG?

    thanks
     
  9. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    I also came here a few months ago asking many questions and hoping the folks would have all the answers to quickly fix the mess I was in. I am very thankful to the PR members for trying to help me, but I had to do my own research while navigating through my symptoms to find the right fix.

    So, the best thing I can do for you is to share the best information I found around, the info that made most sense to me:

    Magnesium
    http://george-eby-research.com/html/depression-anxiety.html

    Salicylates
    http://salicylatesensitivity.com/about/food-guide/

    Nutrient interactions
    http://www.acu-cell.com/acn.html

    Vitamins info
    http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins.html

    Knowing that I usually have high uric acid, this discussion helped me a lot:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ylate-inhibits-mast-cell-degranulation.30056/

    I only realized I had became salicylate intolerant when I could not tolerate toothpaste! Excluding high sulfur from my diet made feel much worse and aggravated intolerances (to lettuce, celery, beets, carrots, honey, coconut oil, avocados, malic acid, aminoacids, smells etc).

    Sorry, I know nothing about my SNPs other than +/- for Factor V Leiden (trombophilia).

    All the best,

    izzy
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2014
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  10. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @ebethc I think w/ your CBS profile it's quite likely you have sulfur/thiol/ammonia issues. As a child I got stomach aches sometimes after eating eggs. But as an adult I had a very high thiol diet, loved Asian greens, onions, garlic, etc. Only after 6 months on GAPS diet, with persistent and increasing facial eczema, did it show itself. I removed histamines, problem < 50%; removed sulfur, the rest abated. Forever?? Who knows! People on GAPS feel that eventually, when gut heals, foods can be added back in.

    LAG is larch extract, a tree-derived form of resistant starch to feed probiotics.
     
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  11. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Hi @ebethc ,

    1. The vegetables I did on a low sulfur diet are: carrots, celery, zucchini, yellow squash, greenbeans (haricots)

    2. Do you have urine test strips? If you are in the US and want mine, send me your address in a conversation (within the next 24 hrs. or it may be a while).

    -hydroxy or adenosyl are for cobalamin, B12. Methylfolate is different, B9. I don't know if anyone with sulfur issues had had trouble with it...either before or after starting a sulfur clearance program.
    -IBS is related to the MTHFR A1298C, for which the methylfolate is often used. I don't know that supplementing it is a one-hit solution, though. Maybe ask your doctor about it.
    -dimethylglycine and trimethylglycine, the difference is two or three methylgroups on the glycine. When your homocysteine is high and for some reason the B12/methylfolate supplementation is working, you can try to encourage the BHMT pathway, that is slowed down by the 08 mutation. But if your homocysteine is not high, and you may be sensitive to methyl groups, you probably don't want either. I took DMG once - I got very weird (I have the BHMT 08 +/+ also). Normally my piano teacher has trouble making me play hard enough to get very loud. When I took the DMG, I pounded the keyboard like I was mad at it. So, to answer your question, you take TMG when your homocysteine is high, and you take DMG when you want to play piano really loud! :p
    ...OK, that makes me think of another thing, when you use homocysteine to make methionine, you're keeping it from being swiped away by the overactive CBS, which is perhaps causing you the sulfur problems. Hmmm: something else to ask your doctor about.

    I read on another thread about someone who was MTHFR A1298C +/+ (and maybe MAO A and COMT sensitive to methyl groups) who was told to take methylfolate and BH2. And when I read it, I thought "There's someone else who has a post that this relates to." It's you. But as your mood is stable, maybe better just stick with what you're doing.:)
     
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  12. ebethc

    ebethc Senior Member

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    @ahmo @critter

    I noticed that both of you have histamine issues, and you may be able to answer another question...

    I am EXTREMELY sensitive to any kind of particulate matter (pollution, pollen, dust, mold spores) BUT I test negative for ANY allergies... Zilch. Zero. No allergies.. However, I have terrible symptoms during hayfever season and Spring / Early Summer... My eyes are itchy, my sinuses & throat swell up... My doctor said that it's caused by irritation from particles (pollen, etc) and not an allergic response - even though the symptoms are the same. I think she's right. I have a theory that if i improve my mucosa, I will feel much better (and this would help IBS, too)... My Sterling report said that I have a hard time converting Beta-Carotene to Vitamin A/Retinol, and I know that Vitamin A helps the mucosa... Also, it may be a histamine prob too - if it's possible to have a histamine problem w/o having allergies..

    Any advice on making myself more resilient to particulate matter? What else can I do besides Vitamin A & GAPS?
     
  13. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I don't have allergies, and I have a significant histamine problem. But your description certainly sounds as if you're allergic to those things. Improve mucosa???

    Maybe you'd find some answers by looking into mast cells. mast cells release histamines....I have both histamine intolerance (from food, strong reactions to insect bites, reactions to histamines released during detox) and mast cell issues.

    Mastocytosis with Theoharis C. Theoharides, MS, PhD, MD, FAA‬
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=CplxXGpFeKQ

    http://peelingbacktheonionlayers.com/could-histamine-be-sabotaging-your-digestive-health/

    The Many Faces of Histamine Intolerance http://healthypixels.com/?p=1044
    http://thelowhistaminechef.com/wondering-why-you-react-to-everything-you-eat/
     
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