Sulfite/sulfate and ammonia questions

[Violeta]

" There is another apparent anti-inflammatory mechanism of action, based upon my response. I would venture a guess that the PS is neutralizing LPS in the bowel. If this is true, I think this would represent an unbelievably valuable property."

What's LPS?

Thanks

 

[Violeta]

" There is another apparent anti-inflammatory mechanism of action, based upon my response. I would venture a guess that the PS is neutralizing LPS in the bowel. If this is true, I think this would represent an unbelievably valuable property."

What's LPS?

Thanks

I really didn't think those three letters LPS would be enough to find out what it is through google search, but I guess it's this:

Bacterial-derived lipopolysaccharides (LPS) play an essential role in the inflammatory process of inflammatory bowel disease

There's a paper written on it. I'll get the link.

Well, there's a lot of papers written about it, but here's the first one that I found that looks interesting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3601973/

 

[anne_likes_red]

@Vegas
I had been wondering about clostridia in particular so thank you for that clarification. It's great you're getting good results from PS. I figure you've been at this a while so you know positive change when you feel it. Hope you'll update further after more of a trial.
I have some B bifidum on back order and I can't wait to get some of that cooking.

@Violeta My B infantis culture turned out very thin. I hope that doesn't mean the probiotic is unviable. I cultured it in cowsmilk for 24 hrs @ 110 - 115 F. I don't tolerate dairy well (I tried a bit and I reacted) so it ended up in smoothies for my children. Next time I could try a L rhamnosus (AKA Culturelle or LGG) and B infantis culture. That lacto strain is bifidogenic and won't compete with the infantis so hopefully together they might break down the milk to a degree where I can tolerate it or where my kids recognise it more as yogurt - not that they objected to the smoothies!
....On the other hand, because the goal is to culture Bifidobacteria alone... I noticed my coconut yogurt has B bifidum and B lactis in it so I'm wondering now if I can culture B infanits in coconut milk. I tolerate coconut milk fully fermented or not so I don't risk adverse reactions - that is all going well! I'll have to read back over this thread and make a 'best plan'. Hope your latest yogurt venture is going well!

 

[Hanna]

I cultured with primal defense Ultra from Garden of Life. The result was very tasty and ferm. The question is, as this probiotics is a multiple strain one, I don't know if one (or more) of the components are "bifido-phobic".
It includes :
- Lactobacillus plantarum
- bacillus subtilis
- Lactobacillus paracasei
- Lactobacillus brevis
- Lactobacilus acidophilus
- Lactobacillus salivarius
- Lactobacillus rahmnosus
- Lactobacillus casei
and 4 strains of bifidobacteria (B longum, bifidum, breve, lactis)
I would appreciate is someone has some clue about this.

 

[Christopher]

@Vegas
I had been wondering about clostridia in particular so thank you for that clarification. It's great you're getting good results from PS. I figure you've been at this a while so you know positive change when you feel it. Hope you'll update further after more of a trial.
I have some B bifidum on back order and I can't wait to get some of that cooking.

@Violeta My B infantis culture turned out very thin. I hope that doesn't mean the probiotic is unviable. I cultured it in cowsmilk for 24 hrs @ 110 - 115 F. I don't tolerate dairy well (I tried a bit and I reacted) so it ended up in smoothies for my children. Next time I could try a L rhamnosus (AKA Culturelle or LGG) and B infantis culture. That lacto strain is bifidogenic and won't compete with the infantis so hopefully together they might break down the milk to a degree where I can tolerate it or where my kids recognise it more as yogurt - not that they objected to the smoothies!
....On the other hand, because the goal is to culture Bifidobacteria alone... I noticed my coconut yogurt has B bifidum and B lactis in it so I'm wondering now if I can culture B infanits in coconut milk. I tolerate coconut milk fully fermented or not so I don't risk adverse reactions - that is all going well! I'll have to read back over this thread and make a 'best plan'. Hope your latest yogurt venture is going well!

What did you use for the B. Infantis starter?

 

[Vegas]

I really didn't think those three letters LPS would be enough to find out what it is through google search, but I guess it's this:

Bacterial-derived lipopolysaccharides (LPS) play an essential role in the inflammatory process of inflammatory bowel disease

There's a paper written on it. I'll get the link.

Well, there's a lot of papers written about it, but here's the first one that I found that looks interesting.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3601973/

Yes, you are smart like that, I knew you would figure it out. Many here know about elevated LPS in autism, depression, and ME/CFS, but the evidence for this really exists across a whole range of inflammatory conditions. Disease starts in the gut. It is the unifying element, and it is not a secondary sequela. Nearly everyone makes assumptions about the pathophysiology of their conditions, largely influenced by their personal experiences. I certainly did. I was way too dismissive of the impact of the gut, but honestly the contribution did not become clear until my immune system became competent enough to fight the fight. I truly understand now that the presence of certain organisms in the gut are absolutely essential for recovery because without some neutralization of the toxicity of the endotoxins, mobilization would be fatal. The inhibition of our immune response preserves life. In this regard, I think the right probiotics and prebiotics can be curative. Immunostimulation is easy to achieve, blunting the immune response is not.

 

[Violeta]

@Violeta My B infantis culture turned out very thin. I hope that doesn't mean the probiotic is unviable. I cultured it in cowsmilk for 24 hrs @ 110 - 115 F. I don't tolerate dairy well (I tried a bit and I reacted) so it ended up in smoothies for my children. Next time I could try a L rhamnosus (AKA Culturelle or LGG) and B infantis culture. That lacto strain is bifidogenic and won't compete with the infantis so hopefully together they might break down the milk to a degree where I can tolerate it or where my kids recognise it more as yogurt - not that they objected to the smoothies!
....On the other hand, because the goal is to culture Bifidobacteria alone... I noticed my coconut yogurt has B bifidum and B lactis in it so I'm wondering now if I can culture B infanits in coconut milk. I tolerate coconut milk fully fermented or not so I don't risk adverse reactions - that is all going well! I'll have to read back over this thread and make a 'best plan'. Hope your latest yogurt venture is going well!

Hi Anne, it's disappointing when the yogurt turns out like water I keep trying, too, though

The yogurt I started yesterday isn't turning into yogurt, either. The bottle that was over the hot spot of the yogurt maker separated and got a foam on top. I'm thinking the foam is the bifidobacteria doing it's thing. The yogurt might not have separated if I had used pasteurized homogenized milk. Last time I threw a couple of the bottles of it out, but this time I'll drink or eat it, depending how it looks when it's cooled. It doesn't smell good. I'll try mixing it with blueberries.

Straining off the whey is another thing to try in case the extra methionine in the whey messes up things at this point.

I'll check out the culturelle that you mention, maybe that would help. It would be nice to have a yogurt with good taste and texture, although if it doesn't happen chugging down a couple of ounces of liquid a day isn't a big deal.
Especially if it helps. S. thermophiles is neutral, too, maybe someone could make a specially mix for us.

I'm going to look into adding pectin to my yogurt, too. The farmer at the dairy that I get my raw milk said that that's one way to thicken yogurt made with raw milk.

On the RS front, I bought some PS yesterday and tried it last night. My gut had been hurting and that seemed to clear up almost immediately. But not long after that I got pain along my shoulder, up the side of my neck, and into my head, I guess along the liver/gallbladder meridian. The pain in the shoulder and neck went away this morning but the headache was still there. It's clearing up, though. As far as what else the RS/PS is doing, that would be considered TMI, so for now I'll just say it's not in the positive, yet. But that's okay.

Also on the RS/PS front, I made some german potato salad yesterday, to incorporate more food with resistant starch into my diet.

Keep us posted on your plan!

 

[Vegas]

@Vegas
I had been wondering about clostridia in particular so thank you for that clarification. It's great you're getting good results from PS. I figure you've been at this a while so you know positive change when you feel it. Hope you'll update further after more of a trial.
I have some B bifidum on back order and I can't wait to get some of that cooking.

@Violeta My B infantis culture turned out very thin. I hope that doesn't mean the probiotic is unviable. I cultured it in cowsmilk for 24 hrs @ 110 - 115 F. I don't tolerate dairy well (I tried a bit and I reacted) so it ended up in smoothies for my children. Next time I could try a L rhamnosus (AKA Culturelle or LGG) and B infantis culture. That lacto strain is bifidogenic and won't compete with the infantis so hopefully together they might break down the milk to a degree where I can tolerate it or where my kids recognise it more as yogurt - not that they objected to the smoothies!
....On the other hand, because the goal is to culture Bifidobacteria alone... I noticed my coconut yogurt has B bifidum and B lactis in it so I'm wondering now if I can culture B infanits in coconut milk. I tolerate coconut milk fully fermented or not so I don't risk adverse reactions - that is all going well! I'll have to read back over this thread and make a 'best plan'. Hope your latest yogurt venture is going well!

Yes, the Clostrida connection is interesting because the infant microbiome, which is dominated by Bifidobacteria, is secondarily populated with Clostridia. These are the commensal strains that participate in Butyrate biosynthesis. The Clostridia cannot survive, however, without the contributions of the Bifidobacteria.

Infantis doesn't culture as thick as Bifidum, but mine is still pretty solid. I will have to post a pic. I think your strategy of putting rhamnosus together with a bifidus strain is sound. L. Rhamnosus is heterofermentative and shares many characteristics as Bifidobacteria: not being a significant D-lactate producer, no impact from histamine, ability to grow anaerobically, a producer of exopolysaccharides, etc. It will not have the same anti-inflammatory impact, but it is not going to have adverse impacts short of any backlash created by the immune response. (Although the distal bowel pathogens are the real bad guys and this will impact the upper gut more prominently) Pretty good evidence relating to NK function with this species, and of course a hearty GABA synthesizer.

Coconut milk is an inferior substrate but it should still work. The adhesion will be influenced by this. My kids felt the impact of the RS, about 1 tsp twice was all it took.

 

[Vegas]

I cultured with primal defense Ultra from Garden of Life. The result was very tasty and ferm. The question is, as this probiotics is a multiple strain one, I don't know if one (or more) of the components are "bifido-phobic".
It includes :
- Lactobacillus plantarum
- bacillus subtilis
- Lactobacillus paracasei
- Lactobacillus brevis
- Lactobacilus acidophilus
- Lactobacillus salivarius
- Lactobacillus rahmnosus
- Lactobacillus casei
and 4 strains of bifidobacteria (B longum, bifidum, breve, lactis)
I would appreciate is someone has some clue about this.

I am not enamored with the composition of your starter because I don't think you want all of those organisms, and some will "outcompete" those you do want. ALR's idea of using rhamnosus with B. bifidum is sound. I have 0 trouble getting Natren's B. Bifidum to culture alone, though. This with a good prebiotic seems to be quite potent.

 

[Vegas]

Hi Anne, it's disappointing when the yogurt turns out like water I keep trying, too, though

The yogurt I started yesterday isn't turning into yogurt, either. The bottle that was over the hot spot of the yogurt maker separated and got a foam on top. I'm thinking the foam is the bifidobacteria doing it's thing. The yogurt might not have separated if I had used pasteurized homogenized milk. Last time I threw a couple of the bottles of it out, but this time I'll drink or eat it, depending how it looks when it's cooled. It doesn't smell good. I'll try mixing it with blueberries.

Straining off the whey is another thing to try in case the extra methionine in the whey messes up things at this point.

I'll check out the culturelle that you mention, maybe that would help. It would be nice to have a yogurt with good taste and texture, although if it doesn't happen chugging down a couple of ounces of liquid a day isn't a big deal.
Especially if it helps. S. thermophiles is neutral, too, maybe someone could make a specially mix for us.

I'm going to look into adding pectin to my yogurt, too. The farmer at the dairy that I get my raw milk said that that's one way to thicken yogurt made with raw milk.

On the RS front, I bought some PS yesterday and tried it last night. My gut had been hurting and that seemed to clear up almost immediately. But not long after that I got pain along my shoulder, up the side of my neck, and into my head, I guess along the liver/gallbladder meridian. The pain in the shoulder and neck went away this morning but the headache was still there. It's clearing up, though. As far as what else the RS/PS is doing, that would be considered TMI, so for now I'll just say it's not in the positive, yet. But that's okay.

Also on the RS/PS front, I made some german potato salad yesterday, to incorporate more food with resistant starch into my diet.

Keep us posted on your plan!

Sorry to hear you are not getting results. It shouldn't smell bad, but I highly doubt it is spoiled. Bifidus yogurt is very mild. Tastes like something between sour cream and plain yogurt. It does not taste bad, but people are not going to line up to taste it.

Left shoulder or right? The main messenteric lymph node drains into your blood circulation under the left shoulder blade. Could as you say also be gb pain, this is caused by the endotoxins, and when your liver, pancreas, and/or galbladder start to hurt, you need to slow down.

p.s.--When patient's present with an acute abdomen, they commonly present with referred shoulder pain, but for some reason I am thinking it is more often the right shoulder, so the location might suggest whether this is intrabdominal inflammation or lymphatic contribution.

 

[Violeta]

Sorry to hear you are not getting results. It shouldn't smell bad, but I highly doubt it is spoiled. Bifidus yogurt is very mild. Tastes like something between sour cream and plain yogurt. It does not taste bad, but people are not going to line up to taste it.

Left shoulder or right? The main messenteric lymph node drains into your blood circulation under the left shoulder blade. Could as you say also be gb pain, this is caused by the endotoxins, and when your liver, pancreas, and/or galbladder start to hurt, you need to slow down.

To tell you the truth, it doesn't smell really bad, I guess that's not the way to describe it. Sometimes it smells just like the Natren bifido factor, only stronger. When it starts to separate, it does get a stronger smell, and yes, I'm glad you said it's most likely not spoiled. The smell calms down after it's cooled off. I don't think I'll try it again with raw milk, though. Yes, please do post a picture of yours.

It's the right shoulder and with respect to my face, it goes up the right side lately. It gets worse when I start drinking raw milk, and the raw milk actually affects my hearing, too. I usually give up on it at some point, but I still can't handle a lot of foods high in nitrogen, so I'm using dairy for the protein, not to mention all the minerals.

Yes, I am definitely overburdened with endotoxins, and actually all these years that I have been trying to get over chronic fatigue, this is my first sustained effort to deal with my issues through rehabilitating my gut. Well, I have tried the yogurt/kefir/kombucha/kimchi/sauerkraut, etc., even macrobiotic miso/tamari methods, and the nograins/nocarbs methods, also the rawvegan method, but maybe this is the first time that I'm actually doing it in a way that will be the right way for me.

Thanks so much for all your help!

 

[Violeta]

@Vegas,
"Left shoulder or right? The main messenteric lymph node drains into your blood circulation under the left shoulder blade. Could as you say also be gb pain, this is caused by the endotoxins, and when your liver, pancreas, and/or galbladder start to hurt, you need to slow down."

I am having severe endotoxin to the left eye, though, if you know anything about that. It seems to be coming up after eating boiled ham (no antibiotics) and potato salad made with bacon, onion, and balsamic vinegar. This is not the first time I've had it, which is how I know it's from something going on in the gut. I can cut out those two foods, but I'm wondering if increasing PS or probiotic is a good idea, too.

Thanks

 

[anne_likes_red]

What did you use for the B. Infantis starter?

Natren Life Start.

 

[Violeta]

Yes, you are smart like that, I knew you would figure it out. Many here know about elevated LPS in autism, depression, and ME/CFS, but the evidence for this really exists across a whole range of inflammatory conditions. Disease starts in the gut. It is the unifying element, and it is not a secondary sequela. Nearly everyone makes assumptions about the pathophysiology of their conditions, largely influenced by their personal experiences. I certainly did. I was way too dismissive of the impact of the gut, but honestly the contribution did not become clear until my immune system became competent enough to fight the fight. I truly understand now that the presence of certain organisms in the gut are absolutely essential for recovery because without some neutralization of the toxicity of the endotoxins, mobilization would be fatal. The inhibition of our immune response preserves life. In this regard, I think the right probiotics and prebiotics can be curative. Immunostimulation is easy to achieve, blunting the immune response is not.

I would like to copy this to a forum for a specific issue, and it's not clear if the issue is caused by over or under stimulated immune response. First of all, do you mind if I copy it to another forum? And also, when you say blunting the immune response, are you referring to some of the autoimmune diseases where the immune system seems overactive?

And also:

p.s.--When patient's present with an acute abdomen, they commonly present with referred shoulder pain, but for some reason I am thinking it is more often the right shoulder, so the location might suggest whether this is intrabdominal inflammation or lymphatic contribution.

I most likely have both, or all three. The endotoxins most likely cause abdominal irritation, dirty lymphatics, and congested liver.

Thanks,
Violeta

 

[anne_likes_red]

Yes, the Clostrida connection is interesting because the infant microbiome, which is dominated by Bifidobacteria, is secondarily populated with Clostridia. These are the commensal strains that participate in Butyrate biosynthesis. The Clostridia cannot survive, however, without the contributions of the Bifidobacteria.

Infantis doesn't culture as thick as Bifidum, but mine is still pretty solid. I will have to post a pic. I think your strategy of putting rhamnosus together with a bifidus strain is sound. L. Rhamnosus is heterofermentative and shares many characteristics as Bifidobacteria: not being a significant D-lactate producer, no impact from histamine, ability to grow anaerobically, a producer of exopolysaccharides, etc. It will not have the same anti-inflammatory impact, but it is not going to have adverse impacts short of any backlash created by the immune response. (Although the distal bowel pathogens are the real bad guys and this will impact the upper gut more prominently) Pretty good evidence relating to NK function with this species, and of course a hearty GABA synthesizer.

Coconut milk is an inferior substrate but it should still work. The adhesion will be influenced by this. My kids felt the impact of the RS, about 1 tsp twice was all it took.

The coconut yogurt I buy to use as a starter has pectin and tapioca starch in it. I wasn't sure why or at what stage of the process they add it but I'll bear what you said in mind about adhesion when making my next coconut culture with L Rham and B infantis and none of the store bought yogurt.
I'd love to be able to tolerate fermented cows milk. I've tried everything to try and make it so I can take it without a sinus/back of throat reaction. I can tolerate ghee or cultured butter so far, and that's it. I'll persevere!!
Thanks again Vegas. Your posts are pure gold.

@Violeta mine was slightly foamy too, but it actually smelled good. Let me know if you try a Culturelle + Bifidobacteria culture. My plan is to do one on coconut milk first with added starch of some type. I have potato starch and tapioca starch on hand plus a prebiotic Arabinogalactan <--- I will have to research that one a bit more, I'm sure I bought it for a good reason but I can't remember the specifics. I have unlimited pectin because my crab apple tree is loaded with fruit and I learned how to extract the pectin. I expect to be busy in the kitchen for a bit...

 

[Violeta]

The coconut yogurt I buy to use as a starter has pectin and tapioca starch in it. I wasn't sure why or at what stage of the process they add it but I'll bear what you said in mind about adhesion when making my next coconut culture with L Rham and B infantis and none of the store bought yogurt.
I'd love to be able to tolerate fermented cows milk. I've tried everything to try and make it so I can take it without a sinus/back of throat reaction. I can tolerate ghee or cultured butter so far, and that's it. I'll persevere!!
Thanks again Vegas. Your posts are pure gold.

@Violeta mine was slightly foamy too, but it actually smelled good. Let me know if you try a Culturelle + Bifidobacteria culture. My plan is to do one on coconut milk first with added starch of some type. I have potato starch and tapioca starch on hand plus a prebiotic Arabinogalactan <--- I will have to research that one a bit more, I'm sure I bought it for a good reason but I can't remember the specifics. I have unlimited pectin because my crab apple tree is loaded with fruit and I learned how to extract the pectin. I expect to be busy in the kitchen for a bit...

I've been going back and forth between coconut milk and cow milk, too. I am having some sinus issues, too, but I'm going to stay with it for awhile this time.

I looked at the culturelle and didn't realize the LGG is l. rhamnosus. I think I'll try pasteurized milk with bifidobacteria first, and let you go first on the l. rhamnosus

Good for you on making your own pectin. You're the first person I ever met that extracts her own pectin from apples!

 

[Hanna]

I am not enamored with the composition of your starter because I don't think you want all of those organisms, and some will "outcompete" those you do want. ALR's idea of using rhamnosus with B. bifidum is sound. I have 0 trouble getting Natren's B. Bifidum to culture alone, though. This with a good prebiotic seems to be quite potent.

Thanks Vegas, I think I am beginning to understand the logic of the topic. Brain fog + foreign language don't make the thing simple though.

 

[Violeta]

I've been wondering if the polysaccharides in reishi help in some way with correcting the bacterial environment of the gut. I've gotten so much help in so many different areas from reishi. I relooked it up the other day and there's lots of information saying the polysaccharides it contains are what provide the greatest amount of it's benefits. One of it's benefits is that it rebalances the immune system.

I have to go to work today, but I'll see if I can find something specifically linking it to bifidobacteria. The one good link I've seen so far is to a book that I don't feel like buying.

 

[Violeta]

I was feeling rather bad today, abdominal, brain, and sinus issues, so I took two Garden of Life SBO, and about 1/2 hour later my sinuses started to drain. What a relief. I don't know which way I'm going to go from here. I think they work better for me than yogurt, though.

 

[Hanna]

What are those Garden of Life SBO, Violeta? Didn't identified them.