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Sulfite/sulfate and ammonia questions

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
Wow, okay, I'll cut back on the bifidus yogurt.

I looked up the list of foods high in threonine, and I hadn't been able to eat any of them for about 6 years. The most telling ones are the dairy, cream cheese and cottage cheese, which caused me a lot of distress, while other dairy wasn't quite so bad. Yogurt and kefir did bother me, but it would always require a build up of a month or two.

I reread your first message in this thread and saw that you mentioned B2. Then I found the B2 I love you thread. I ordered some B2 and metafolin, since the only methylfolate I had was in a multi, and am looking forward to adding those into the mix.

I read a little bit about Ruggiero and his GcMAF yogurt last night. Very interesting! Do you have any thoughts on colostrum?

Thanks again

Threonine: Sesame seeds and lentils, knock me out. I finally figured this out after taking a supplement with threonine in it. This gets metabolized into acetaldehyde, so both will be problematic for you. An overgrowth of the wrong LAB strains will metabolize the threonine into acetaldehyde but will not subsequently metabolize this into the more inert acetic acid. Methionine is one of the precursors to threonine, so that further complicates things when you push methyl donors too fast.

The effect of the wrong strains from kefir an yogurt would be cumulative. It is the effect of the alteration of the microbiome, not the effect created by the vessel for the probiotics. Of course the type of yogurt you were making had high acetaldehyde content, imparting the flavor, but this amount isn't going to hurt you. It's more about correcting the dysbiosis and the byproducts this produces..

I think those with ME/CFS are probably not unlike those with Inflammatory Bowel Diseases. Metagenomic analyses of the microbiota residing in those with IBD have found that these patients demonstrate not only different organisms and number of organisms than healthy individuals, they also find systemic shifts in their intestinal metabolisms. One of the features that was most prominent was an upshift in the genes involved in the transport and synthesis of cofactors used to control oxidative stress. This includes riboflavin, these patient's bodies were presumably trying to get more B2 to the cells. FAD and FMN, which derives from B2, is involved in many critical reactions pertaining to oxidative stress, but also to the dehydrogenase family of enzymes. So yeah, you should take B2 liberally.

I don't have any particular thoughts on colostrum.
 

Gestalt

Senior Member
Messages
251
Location
Canada
First, the Bifidus through production of bacteriocins and organic acids results in the displacement of pathogenic organisms that are net producers of ammonia (or other nitrogenous products that contribute to this). While I see individual variances in organisms that predominate in many different inflammatory diseases down to something as specific as ME/CFS, the broadest classification of organisms creating the dysbiosis is the predominance of PROTEOBACTERIA. These gram-positive, largely anaerobic species need to be displaced from the lower intestinal tract; the void needs to be filled with organisms that can reside there. This means you need competing species that will fill this largely anaerobic niche. Like proteobacteria, bifidus species, will occupy that niche. They are obligatively or facultatively, anaerobic, like most proteobacteria, yet they are gram positive and non-pathogenic.
(Other aerobic organisms and the deamination of proteins and other nitrogenous compounds also contribute to this, but I don't want to get too complicated).

The second, method whereby the Bifidum will decrease plasma ammonia is through it's ability to alter pH. Lower pH reduces the production of ammonia by intestinal organisms. What I think is more consequential though is that a lower, and more acidic pH will enhance hydrolysis. In the lower pH of the large intestine ammonia (NH3) can more readily bond with Hydrogen, creating ammonium (NH4). The importance of this reaction is that ammonium cannot pass through the bowel wall into the blood. Reducing pH in the colon thus allows for ammonia to be converted to a less toxic form, and one that does not diffuse into the blood.

@Vegas I think you single handedly explained (via your posts in this thread) many of the reasons why Resistant Starch is having such a profound effect on so many people including myself.

Check out The Resistant Starch Thread, I'm surprised your not over there yet, as resistant starch has been shown to increase bifido populations 11x fold over normal adult baseline. Seems to me this is a much more effective strategy than culturing your own milk.

I have been hooked on yucca for the last 1.5 years as it gave me enormous relief from the ammonia overload and the microglial activation it was causing. Since introducing 20g+ of RS a day over the last few weeks I have removed the yucca and it seems my ammonia issues are gone!

Not only does this bacterial re-balance solve many of the issues you have listed above the increased acidity also appears to be one of the things that keeps Candida in check which is another issue I have been trying to contend with.

Thank you so much for the impressive and clear explanations!

Also I wanted to ask you which specific strains/products of probiotics do you recommend? Resistant starch merely provides the soil, I want to make sure I'm using the best available seed possible. I saw you mentioned probiotics from Natren, which one do you recommend specifically?
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
Resistant starch is a very good idea. I have incorporated this for some time through various foods, but not in the same quantities as you report. I've also never taken unmodified potato starch, but I am intrigued by the idea of using this method to introduce large quantities of RS. Actually, I think galactooligosaccharide (GOS) may be the ideal substrate for Bifidobacterial growth. Have you considered this. A while back I tried to get some bifido-sourced GOS, but it was only available in the UK. There are other non-bifido-derived sources of GOS, though.

I think RS could be very effective, but I believe most here would benefit from the introduction of species that they are lacking. The ongoing supplementation of these organisms will need to continue until the conditions in the bowel are such that these organisms can predominate. Unfortunately, one of the limiting factors in repopulating the intestinal microbiome is going to be one's tolerance to the fatigue and inflammatory response created by the displacement of these organisms. Everyone I know that has pursued my suggestions have eventually experienced this. If you throw down the ideal substrate and start putting in huge numbers of these organisms, as is the case when you culture your own bacteria without competing organisms, there will be some negative consequences. I would happily eat 4 cups of yogurt and the other fermented foods that I make, but I would be nearly non-functional from this. Glad to hear you are having so much success with RS. I don't know about the severity of your illness, but I wouldn't go too fast, as there will be a cumulative effect.

I recommended Infantis and Bifidus strains in particular for quite a number of reasons including their capacity to biosynthesize and interconvert folates, their efficacy in lowering the inflammatory response, their ability to permanently colonize, their strong association with the infant microbiome, and their apparent susceptibility in some disease states. It seems that for most, B. Bifidum has a much stronger effect in terms of displacing organisms. I have cultured other strains, but unfortunately single strain bifidobacteria are not easy to locate. I would love to have some B. Adolescentis, for example, but I cannot find any. The complex interrelationship among the genus, species, and subspecies leads one to believe that biological diversity should be pursued, but I believe some ecological modification needs to take place first. I do not believe saturating the gut with multi-strain probiotics is the answer, but for some this will provide symptomatic relief. The properties of the various Bifidus organisms are actually very distinct, but they are complementary. I certainly can't claim to know the optimal combination, but I have some very compelling leads about what someone with ME/CFS may benefit from based upon my understanding of the biochemical abnormalities of the condition. I also have pretty good anecdotal insight into what seems to help and harm. The trial and error will continue.

I do think the nitrogen problem may be a core issue in ME/CFS and it is reflective of dysbiosis. For many this does not become apparent until cysteine levels rise or pathogenic organisms involved in the nitrogen cycle are displaced. Cysteine metabolism is closely paired to nitrogen metabolism in humans and with apologies to Ms. Yasko, I think the influence of cysteine is not what she has hypothesized. Bifidobacteria positively contribute to denitrification, and their collective impact in humans is unlike any other organism. (SBO's are generally pretty efficient at this as well but they will not predominate).

I think these bifidus organisms are a good foundation, even in those without apparent ammonia problems and acidic bowels. They are net producers of folate, whereas most species of LAB are net consumers. They do not contribute significant degrees of harmful metabolites, as do many species of LAB. Bifidobacteria ferment short chain fatty acids which have myriad functions, but for ME/CFS they are probably critical for supplementing levels of ATP. I also consider this even more important in postmenarchal girls and women because of the negative influence of estradiol, which contributes to disruption of the epithelial layer and ultimately intestinal permeability.

Bifidobacteria's relationship in inflammatory disease is also starting to become clear with diminished numbers realized in metabolic disorders, like Type II diabetes, and obesity. Numbers consistently decline with aging and so does ones capacity to metabolize so many compounds that Bifidobacteria have been proven to degrade. Their role in detoxification is greatly under appreciated; with studies demonstrating that they can enhance the excretion of about any substance I have ever seen reported as being at toxic concentrations in ME/CFS. They have consistently been shown to reduce inflammatory measures over time, whereas I have seen quite a number of negative correlations associated with LAB, particularly homofermentative strains.

While I think the foundation is laid in the lower intestinal tract with Bifidobacteria, I believe many strains of LAB can be beneficial, but I think the methodology is critical and the timing of introduction may be as well. LAB will primarily influence the environment in the upper bowel, you may actually find this more efficacious. I think the ideal properties of these organisms, however, will mimic many of those of the Bifidus genus. One needs to ferment anaerobically for an extended duration to reduce the unwanted byproducts of fermentation.

Let me know if you have tried GOS and how your experiment is going. Also, what sort of ammonia symptoms have you experienced.

@Vegas I think you single handedly explained (via your posts in this thread) many of the reasons why Resistant Starch is having such a profound effect on so many people including myself.

C
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
Thank you, Gestalt, for linking to the thread about resistant starch. And thanks again, Vegas, for the additional information about the benefits of bifidobacteria and B. infantis.

I had to look up GOS, and while I was reading about it at Wikipedia (sorry, that's always the easiest way to get a summary) I saw that xylooligosaccharides are beneficial, too. Would that mean that simply using xylitol would provide a prebiotic?

I was talking to a friend about these strains of bacteria and resistant starch, and she had recently seen this prebiotic.


http://www.monados.cz/index.php?opt...:pastefohowmeigui&catid=23:fohoweng&Itemid=46

It's different in that it contains an extract from rose and two other things that I don't recognize. I think the original information is in Russian, and the translation leaves a lot to be desired. I don't know the price yet; it could be out of my range.

She also said that glucomannan is considered a resistant starch; does anyone have an opinion on that?

I have been using bifido factor by Natren. I tried to make it into a yogurt, but it didn't solidify at all. Is that normal? I am not sure if my yogurt maker is working correctly.

I've also been taking small amounts of B2 during the day, and as of yesterday cut out the metafolin and B12 because of what I had read at the B2 I love you thread.

I am having some good results with intermittent increased energy and better sleep. Every now and then I get a sore throat, chest congestion, headache and pain in the base of my skull and spine, and symptoms of a head cold.
I'm finding this whole idea and all this information so interesting that I don't even mind the symptoms.

Thanks again,
Violeta
 

anne_likes_red

Senior Member
Messages
1,103
I have been using bifido factor by Natren. I tried to make it into a yogurt, but it didn't solidify at all. Is that normal? I am not sure if my yogurt maker is working correctly.

I can thicken milk using single lactobacillus strains, or in a stepwise process using lacto first then bifidus, but not using bifidus strains alone! (Not that I have tried them all.)
Your bifidobacteria might (?) be increasing in number - though I am not sure about that as I think they require amino acids in a form you wouldn't find in cows milk not broken down by lactobacteria first.
Or, they may work on their own with a very long fermentation.
Your yogurt maker is probably fine. :)
 
Last edited:

Hanna

Senior Member
Messages
717
Location
Jerusalem, Israel
@Vegas, Thank you for all the info you are sharing. I have one question. As I live outside the USA, and the bifido factor (Natren) or others bifido strains (like Jarrow) are not shipped because of their highly perishable state, I have some problems to find a reliable source. On iHerbs, they advise the "outside the US" customers to buy a stabilized form. Do you know if they present the same properties and will culture also?
I found only this one (bifidobacterium longum) which seems to be sent abroad. Could it be suitable?
LEX-16226-5.jpg


http://www.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Bifido-GI-Balance-60-Veggie-Caps/43020

One more thing. In order to culture the strain, do you simply mix one cap of the suitable probiotics (or more caps?) with the milk before letting it 24 hours? No additionnal yogurt has to be added ?
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
I can thicken milk using single lactobacillus strains, or in a stepwise process using lacto first then bifidus, but not using bifidus strains alone! (Not that I have tried them all.)
Your bifidobacteria might (?) be increasing in number - though I am not sure about that as I think they require amino acids in a form you wouldn't find in cows milk not broken down by lactobacteria first.
Or, they may work on their own with a very long fermentation.
Your yogurt maker is probably fine. :)

Thanks, Anne. For now I think I'll just take it mixed in some milk along with some resistant starch. You get more for your money if you culture, though, that's for sure.

There's a very nice yogurt called Caspian Sea Yogurt, that doesn't need heat, you can culture it right on your counter top. The active cultures are very different. Here's a link to some information about it.

http://www.naturalabundance.co.nz/probiotics/caspian-sea-yogurt

I'll see if I can find anything else about those strains.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
I'm a little upset that I ordered glucomannan to use for resistant starch. My friend thought it was in the same category as potato starch, but I was just reading about it here

http://www.konjacfoods.com/health/index.html

and I don't really see that it contains resistant starch, just soluble fiber.

It does have a lot of good qualities, though.

If anyone knows anything with respect to whether this will work as resistant starch, I would appreciate your help.

Thanks
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
Thank you, Gestalt, for linking to the thread about resistant starch. And thanks again, Vegas, for the additional information about the benefits of bifidobacteria and B. infantis.

I had to look up GOS, and while I was reading about it at Wikipedia (sorry, that's always the easiest way to get a summary) I saw that xylooligosaccharides are beneficial, too. Would that mean that simply using xylitol would provide a prebiotic?

I was talking to a friend about these strains of bacteria and resistant starch, and she had recently seen this prebiotic.


http://www.monados.cz/index.php?opt...:pastefohowmeigui&catid=23:fohoweng&Itemid=46

It's different in that it contains an extract from rose and two other things that I don't recognize. I think the original information is in Russian, and the translation leaves a lot to be desired. I don't know the price yet; it could be out of my range.

She also said that glucomannan is considered a resistant starch; does anyone have an opinion on that?

I have been using bifido factor by Natren. I tried to make it into a yogurt, but it didn't solidify at all. Is that normal? I am not sure if my yogurt maker is working correctly.

I've also been taking small amounts of B2 during the day, and as of yesterday cut out the metafolin and B12 because of what I had read at the B2 I love you thread.

I am having some good results with intermittent increased energy and better sleep. Every now and then I get a sore throat, chest congestion, headache and pain in the base of my skull and spine, and symptoms of a head cold.
I'm finding this whole idea and all this information so interesting that I don't even mind the symptoms.

Thanks again,
Violeta

Xylitol is not a resistant starch, at least it wouldn't seem to fit that profile, but it is a sugar alcohol. I think sugard alcohols are not highly compatible with most of us, from a biochemical perspective.

Glucomanan is not going to help you much.

i still think that GOS is the ideal prebiotic for most with ME/CFS. I believe fewer pathogenic organisms will be able to utilize this substrate as effectively as the Bifidobacteria. Most bacteria in your gut is saccharolytic, they all do well with carbs, but Bifidus is particularly well suited to utilize galactooligosaccharide. Historically, what I have seen is people "starving" the sacchorolytic bacteria, thereby killing a lot of pathogenic species yet not encouraging growth of the commensal organisms. We still need to feed the good guys; might as feed them what they like. While I think other resistant starches will similarly effect Bifidus growth, I am somewhat concerned about substrate specificity. More virulent organisms can access the PS versus the GOS. This is not a concern for many, but in ME/CFS with multiple studies demonstrating very significant reductions in Bifidobacteria, and high levels of pathogens (that would reside in the same ecological niche--the colon), I think this is germane. I welcome criticism of this contention that GOS is preferable.

"I have been using bifido factor by Natren. I tried to make it into a yogurt, but it didn't solidify at all. Is that normal? I am not sure if my yogurt maker is working correctly."

When only bifidus strains are used, the milk does not firm up as much, but it is close. It should have the consistency of yogurt. I typically use a half teaspoon or so of vitamin c. I'm not sure about the temp in my yogurt maker, but I would estimate it to be about 105-110. Are you following the SCD method? (save for the fact they have a silly idea about not using Bifidobacterial strains). I do culture it for 20-24 hours.

"I've also been taking small amounts of B2 during the day, and as of yesterday cut out the metafolin and B12 because of what I had read at the B2 I love you thread."

Do what works for you. I wouldn't get too caught up in precise balances and ratios.

"I am having some good results with intermittent increased energy and better sleep. Every now and then I get a sore throat, chest congestion, headache and pain in the base of my skull and spine, and symptoms of a head cold.
I'm finding this whole idea and all this information so interesting that I don't even mind the symptoms."

Hard to say about the headaches because there are so many causes of these, but it does sound like you have some immune activation and lymphatic drainage. I think the lymphatics in the head are among the first to be effected given their rich blood supply. The base of head, where the cranium meets the soft tissue of the neck has a large collection of lymphatic vessels.

There are going to be quite a few chemical reactions stimulated as you start introducing these bacteria. The bacteria themselves will produce chemicals that favorably impact your health, (even when they perish) and they will also stimulate your own production of various chemicals. Some of these will help neutralize the toxicity of the components the bacteria that is being displaced and others are stimulating the immune response. The hydrolase enzymes are centrally involved.

I am in the process of hopefully getting some GOS sourced from Bifidus, so I will test this hypothesis against PS.
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
I can thicken milk using single lactobacillus strains, or in a stepwise process using lacto first then bifidus, but not using bifidus strains alone! (Not that I have tried them all.)
Your bifidobacteria might (?) be increasing in number - though I am not sure about that as I think they require amino acids in a form you wouldn't find in cows milk not broken down by lactobacteria first.
Or, they may work on their own with a very long fermentation.
Your yogurt maker is probably fine. :)

LAB strains will firm up the "yogurt," but I find this works quite well with Natren's single bifidus strains. They use a different process than others. I think a little higher temperature generally works a bit better. When I culture without any oxygen, I typically have to put it in the oven, and thus use a lower temperature, and I find that it does not firm up that well, but it is certainly potent. Those Bifidus critters don't like oxygen.

P.S.--As a testament to the fact that I am not trying to sell a brand, I disagree with Natren's assertion that SBO probiotics are harmful. I think they can be helpful, but they are not going to singularly alter the terrain insofar as it needs to be.
 
Last edited:

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
@Vegas, Thank you for all the info you are sharing. I have one question. As I live outside the USA, and the bifido factor (Natren) or others bifido strains (like Jarrow) are not shipped because of their highly perishable state, I have some problems to find a reliable source. On iHerbs, they advise the "outside the US" customers to buy a stabilized form. Do you know if they present the same properties and will culture also?
I found only this one (bifidobacterium longum) which seems to be sent abroad. Could it be suitable?
LEX-16226-5.jpg


http://www.iherb.com/Life-Extension-Bifido-GI-Balance-60-Veggie-Caps/43020

One more thing. In order to culture the strain, do you simply mix one cap of the suitable probiotics (or more caps?) with the milk before letting it 24 hours? No additionnal yogurt has to be added ?
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
B. Longum would not be my first choice, but again, there are way too many variables to know what will be most effective, with respect to individual organims. Ideally you would culture multiple strains individually and trial them separately. I think B. Longum is better than nothing, although I have not singularly cultured B. Longum, only in combination with other strains. I do not know how well it will replicate and what texture you will get. Also, there are significant variance in subspecies/strain, as is there with the process used to store and preserve the probiotic.

Heat your milk to 75 C, stirring regularly once it goes above 50C. (use candy thermometer). Put pot of milk in sink with cold water to bring temp down to 40 or so. pour a small amount of milk into a bowl, mix probiotic into the bowl, I use about a 5-10 grams of powder, it's not real scientific. Mix in a couple of grams of vitamin c. Do your best to dissolve this, then pour it back into the pot with the rest of the milk in it, stir it up real well, then pour it into your yogurt maker, I use glass jars, let "cook" for 24 hours, refrigerate.

Whole milk is preferable. I mix the yogurt in with some frozen blueberries, strawberries, and some juice and blend it. It doesn't taste bad, but it makes it easier to get the kids to take it.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
LAB strains will firm up the "yogurt," but I find this works quite well with Natren's single bifidus strains. They use a different process than others. I think a little higher temperature generally works a bit better. When I culture without any oxygen, I typically have to put it in the oven, and thus use a lower temperature, and I find that it does not firm up that well, but it is certainly potent. Those Bifidus critters don't like oxygen.

Thanks so much. I'll try again. Culturing without oxygen, does that just mean you fill the jar as completely as possible and put a lid on it? My yogurt maker consists of 7 small jars inside a dome, and they say don't put lids on the jars, which might explain why my yogurt didn't get too good.

I'll try adding the vitamin c, too.

Great!

You don't think the glucomannan will help? Thanks for your opinion, I'll put that on the back burner, and then most likely the waste basket.

I'm looking forward to hearing about your experiment with GOS, especially now that I know what it is:)

Thanks again,
Violeta
 

Hanna

Senior Member
Messages
717
Location
Jerusalem, Israel
Is the vitamin C used to get a firm yoghurt or is it for an other purpose ? Thanks a lot Vegas.
I am trying at the moment making yoghurt with the only probiotics I have in hands : Garden of Life Ultra with goat milk.
(Forgot the vit C). I'll report when it is finished.
 

anne_likes_red

Senior Member
Messages
1,103
LAB strains will firm up the "yogurt," but I find this works quite well with Natren's single bifidus strains. They use a different process than others. I think a little higher temperature generally works a bit better. When I culture without any oxygen, I typically have to put it in the oven, and thus use a lower temperature, and I find that it does not firm up that well, but it is certainly potent. Those Bifidus critters don't like oxygen.

P.S.--As a testament to the fact that I am not trying to sell a brand, I disagree with Natren's assertion that SBO probiotics are harmful. I think they can be helpful, but they are not going to singularly alter the terrain insofar as it needs to be.

That is all very interesting! I have sourced some Natren (b infantis) locally so I'm going to give it a trial at slightly warmer temps.
I have been reading a bit about GOS lately. keen to hear your observations in due course! :)
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
Thanks so much. I'll try again. Culturing without oxygen, does that just mean you fill the jar as completely as possible and put a lid on it? My yogurt maker consists of 7 small jars inside a dome, and they say don't put lids on the jars, which might explain why my yogurt didn't get too good.


No, no that doesn't keep out oxygen.

Something like this is what I am referring to as a vessel to ferment without oxygen.
http://divinehealthfromtheinsideout.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/100_2568-533x400.jpg.
You do need to use this if you make other fermented foods, if you want the right organisms. At least those that are long ferments. CO2 will keep the O2 in check. We are trying to replicate the environment in the bowels and are simultaneously using methods that will yield higher concentrations of bacteria than can be obtained from supplements.

For yogurt, which sets up so quickly, don't worry about incubating in a purely anaerobic environment. Use Natren's B. Bifidum and leave the lids off.
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
Is the vitamin C used to get a firm yoghurt or is it for an other purpose ? Thanks a lot Vegas.
I am trying at the moment making yoghurt with the only probiotics I have in hands : Garden of Life Ultra with goat milk.
(Forgot the vit C). I'll report when it is finished.

No the Vitamin C is used as an anti-oxidant to improve the viability of the bacteria, and it should favorably impact the intrinsic qualities of the organism. The environmental conditions, like concentration of O2 or CO2 will influence gene expression.
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
That is all very interesting! I have sourced some Natren (b infantis) locally so I'm going to give it a trial at slightly warmer temps.
I have been reading a bit about GOS lately. keen to hear your observations in due course! :)

Infantis is much more "gentle" to the extent I could generalize with a diversity of subjects and such a small sample size. Bifidum seems to be the big gun.
 

brenda

Senior Member
Messages
2,266
Location
UK
I started on Biocare bifidum which l got in the UK. I took one gram today but missed my rs because l had some abdominal pain last night. Othwise it is going well.