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Sulfation, Sulfoxidation, Glutamate Toxicity, and the Thyroid Connection

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by picante, Aug 30, 2015.

  1. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    I have a bunch of puzzle pieces I'd like to spread out on the table and see if the mighty group brain can put them together for me. I have lots of data, but no idea what tests I should have done next or new remedies I might reasonably try.

    The most recent discovery in the saga of my treatment is recorded here for posterity:
    http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...arguments-confuse-me.21963/page-5#post-625201

    Briefly, that is where I ditched reduced L-glutathione cream because I realized that it was provoking glutamate toxicity (and other problems). Thank you, @Freddd.

    Since starting methylation supps a year ago, I've been experiencing severe problems with thiol-containing foods, and now I've found another co-traveler: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...lfur-pst-and-sulfate-reducing-bacteria.39415/

    @Changexpert and I have different symptoms, but for both of us, the sensitivity came on when we started trying methylation protocols. For me, it marked the return of the digestive problems I had before I started taking T3 for Hashimoto's thyroiditis. T3 controlled this for 6-7 years; it returned with my attempts at methylation.

    Before that, I could eat eggs (as many as I wanted), chard, organic cheese, animal protein, and many other things that now knock me down for the count at very low threshholds. We are both in a blind alley with MeB12 and AdB12: for me, all it takes is one drop of liquid MeB12 applied on my skin (approx. 66 mcg) two days in a row. That triggers not being able to eat much of anything.

    Strangely, that first day on one drop of MeB12 (AdB12) my cellular thyroid metabolism goes up and I feel better. A few hours after the 2nd day's dose, everything goes to hell.

    The symptoms are the same set I have from ingesting glutamates such as autolyzed yeast extract, which I avoid like the plague: immediate helium-balloon bloatation, and I get intensely groggy (Zzzzzzz, I'm in the poppy field in Oz). The tiny doses of B12s aggravate this, and trigger insatiable potassium deficiency. Shoveling in the potassium then triggers B1 and zinc deficiencies, and I have to go off protein and B12s/mfolate to let all this sort itself out.

    No, I don't have any +/+ CBS snps. The problems lie elsewhere. Given the +/+ snps I do have, I may be having trouble converting homocysteine to methionine (both pathways). And I suspect problems with conversion of glutamate-to-glutathione and glutamate-to-GABA (based on symptoms). I also suspect problems with sulfite-sulfate conversion.

    Other clues I've been putting together:

    Sulfite inhibits Glutamate Dehydrogenase: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15273247

    Glutamate & Thyroid: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18543341 T(3) regulates extracellular glutamate levels by modulating the astrocytic glutamate transporters.

    γ-Aminobutyric acid production by culturable bacteria from the human intestine

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22612585
    @Gondwanaland steered me here, so I'm trying a probiotic with Lactobacillus brevis in it now.
     
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  2. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Just tagging a few other fine people: @ahmo, @xena, @Hip, @dbkita

    Hip, I'm trying Curcumin, even though anxiety is not a major symptom for me. Thanks, you posted about this in 2010! How are things now?
     
  3. Hip

    Hip Senior Member

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    picante likes this.
  4. drob31

    drob31 Senior Member

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    What foods cause a glutamate issue for you? I'm curious because you mention the bloating and brain fog, and I seem to get that from "something" as well, although I attributed it to hpa-axis signaling issues (hypothyroid myxedema via abnormal cortisol rhythm).
     
  5. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Hi, drob, I don't know anything about myxedema, and I don't get edema anywhere on my body, AFAIK. Is that something you can have only in the intestines?

    I've always thought the bloating was neurological, since it happens before the food even gets to my intestines. Some of the worst dietary triggers for me are:
    autolyzed yeast extract
    "natural flavors"
    sulfites
    canned & bottled tomatoes, including pasta sauces
    frozen peas
    salad bar greens & restaurant salads (sprayed with s.th. to keep them crisp)
    hydrolyzed protein
    soy protein ______​

    There are plenty of others (maltodextrin, enzymes) that are lesser evils, too, and I've avoided them all for years now. Once I bloated up for hours following a cup of Tazo tea at a friend's house. Checked the ingredients a couple weeks later, and it listed "natural flavors". There's also a possibility that the teabag was bleached with sulfite.

    What's causing the reaction these days is usually thiol-containing foods like chard, eggs, garlic, etc., and when it gets to the runaway-train stage (from taking B12), any protein will do it.
     
  6. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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  7. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Hi @ahmo, thanks, but I'm trying and failing to make sense out of that article. For instance:
    Sulfur dioxide is a preservative, and it's not in everything -- far from it.

    Oh. Apparently the author has mixed up sulfur dioxide and thiols. That's sulfur bonded with hydrogen, not oxygen. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiol

    No, it looks like the sulfur compound in thiamine is thiazole, which is nitrogen and sulfur:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiazole

    Biotin a sulfite??? Here's the chemical structure of biotin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biotin
    I don't see any SO3 (which has to have a 2- charge to be sulfite).

    I have such a minimal understanding of chemistry, it's almost embarrassing to catch these errors.
     
  8. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    [​IMG]sorry for the wasted time.:whistle:
     
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  9. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    No prob. Have yourself a lovely day down-under.
     
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  10. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    @ahmo, I've just gone on a little day trip to try and find out what pyroluria is. Naturally, I ran across a lot of your posts. I filled out the questionnaire you linked (somewhere). My score was 10, which is a strong "maybe".

    In my case, sun sensitivity is not really a factor, but hormonal regulation, character traits, joint problems, histamine sensitivity, and sugar problems all weighed in strongly.

    I noticed on one thread that you said you had never had the HPU-Urine test. Is that because it was too problematic to go off of B vitamins for 5 days?

    Quoting from Klinghardt:

    I'm wondering if my increased problems with thiols and sulfites are because my heme went down. Is it possible that the methylation supps could do this to someone with pyroluria???

    I'm going to quote you:
    I relate to your biochemical shift, because I experience these frequently. For no discernible reason, I shift from bleak to cheery. And I also see that I'm taking a lot of the supplements Klinghardt lists on page 18 (same link as above), but at lower doses.

    Sometimes I feel like you and @Gondwanaland are the snowplows going ahead and clearing the road for me. (There's a Montana image for you. :angel:)

    If I have the energy, I'll be on the phone to my ND tomorrow. Boa noite, ZZZzzzz:sleep:
     
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  11. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    No. I wasn't on many supps at that time. Newly on GAPS, ditch all supps. I learned of pyroluria from a GAPS forum as well as MTHFR. I was innundated with alphabet soup, and when I requested homocysteine and MTHFR tests from my GP, forgot to ask for pyroluria. The first time I took the test, my score was low. When I kept seeing references, I retook it, answering for problems I was no longer having. This pushed my score high enough to warrant a gtry. I ordered the supps, and 5 days after receiving them, life was different. BTW, my urine histamine and homocysteine tests showed nothing of note. I haven't bothered to recheck homocysteine, as I'm now doing evderything possible to right this pathway. And histamines are no longer a daily problem, post-FMN.

    No idea.

    [​IMG]Here's how it feels from this side: [​IMG]:hug:
     
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  12. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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  13. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    ROFL. Is that Izzy on the right, getting clobbered by the snow falling off the branch?
     
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  14. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    @picante actually, I thought self-portrait. But, you're right. These days I'm so grateful to be out from under the avalanche.;):balanced:
     
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  15. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Is there a blood test for heme? All I'm finding is that my hemoglobin is mid-range and my RBC went up to a tad over the top of the range this last time (July).
     
  16. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    Hemoglobin + MCH always come with a standard RBC count
     
  17. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    And those are valid measurements of heme? As needed for the functions Klinghardt lists?
    What I'm trying to get at is whether there is a kind of triage happening if there isn't enough heme for everything. Would it go first to hemoglobin, and sacrifice Cytochrome P450 or sulfite reductase?

    Who on PR has knowledge in this area?
     
  18. picante

    picante Senior Member

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    Here's Rich Van K on the relation between pyroluria and the methylation cycle:
    I think the corollary would be that treating the methylation cycle block could aggravate pyroluria, since the more you turn on methylation, the more you would deplete the things that are already depleted in pyroluria.

    I'm inviting anyone to critique this if you have knowledge about it. Mine is next to nil.
     
  19. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    I began by supplementing for pyroluria: zinc, se, molybd, manganese, p5p. Over time, with detox and methylation protocol, I need less of all of these. Except molybd, which is important for sulfur. And am not having HPU symptoms return.
     
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  20. Gondwanaland

    Gondwanaland Senior Member

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    When taking high doses of B12 and/or B9, one stimulates RBC synthesis. Think about it.

    Well if we consider that all B vits are needed for RBC shynthesis, and if one OD in some Bs and does not compensate the other Bs accordingly, and does not add the needed minerals accordingly, one will certainly run into problems.

    My 2 cents.
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2015
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