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Sugar-free MethylB12 tablets?

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
That can only be reliably established by measuring B12 levels before and after such exposure. Otherwise it's relying no how people think they feel, which is inherently highly subject to bias.

Obviously you don't understand what I said. Let me try to explain more clearly. When a cobalamin is absorbed transdermally, it goes into the blood serum. After reaching the blood serum, it's serum half life is 20 to 50 minutes increasing to typically 4.9 hours after 12 hours. So, when a person takes a 1mg IM injection or a 5mg subcutaneous injection, after about 90 minutes approximately 75% of the absorbed to that point cobalamin (100% of the 1mg IM injection, about 1 mg of the 5mg subcutaneous injection) observation of the urine, and if you want to be very exact, you can use color printing filters or a color meter or even a cell phone these days to compare the amount of cobalamin in the urine. Then one can see that the difference between the IM 1mg and the 5mg SC injections both put about 1 mg of cobalamin into serum and 3/4 of that into the urine. Now as I have already calibrated the hue with directly adding measured amounts of b12, of the same solution that is injected, and put it in the toilet instead I can approximate the amount of B12 that makes itg into the toilet via the urine via the blood serum. So then the amoiunt of absorbed b12 under the lip can be calculated by the amount of cobalamin in the toilet, necasue it can't get there if it isn't absorbed into the blood serum.

Having run over 1000 iterations with various brands, various amounts and so on, there is absolutely no doubt that a person can absorb approximately (+- 10-20% variation) the same amount of b12 under the lip as under the tongue. This has NOTHING to do with how people feel after and doesn't depend on somebody just being started ion the b12. This has to do with SEEING with your naked eyes that there is a similar amount of B12 in the toilet and measuring it via colorimetry. Each person has to determine first what the minimum absorbed dose needs to be by injection. The point of OBVIOUS b12 in the urine requires more than most people take daily and also depends on folate levels and probably some other things. So folic acid makes it redder, which means quicker half life so more is excreted and methylfolate causes less b12 to be excreted in the same period so a longer serum half life (and it might only be 15 or 20 minutes, that could be demonstrated by a different times to urine production. So, if putting 10mg of sublingual tablets under the lip and then the urine compared, the amount excreted into the toilet can be calculated and converted to absorbed dose. If it isn't absorbed it can't be in the blood to be excreted. If it is being excreted it has to have been absorbed. It isn't magic. And I repeated approximately 1000 times a year for 4 or 5 years of taking tablets primarily. I also did an injection series of 1 mg to 100mg for comparison, so that with glutathione, suddenly 10mg injection colors the toilet as if I had injected 60mg.causing the "catastrophic" B12 deficiency" that the CblC research speaks about. I am comparing my results A to my results B to my Results C and results D so I am a constant. Another person doing the same thing is comparing there results under each condition, over and over.

The serum level can be calculated by what fraction of it goes into the toilet, and that is irrelevant anyway. Mine has been measured at > 220,000 pg/ml. My pharmacokinetic model of B12 calculated my serum level to be in excess of 200,000pg/ml. Because you don't have that much background B12 your doses to be visible will be different for you. And for consistent results you need to take a steady dose for 3 or 4 days before finding the minimum visible absorbed dose and then use that for a few days to get to steady state. However, as I was trying to equal 5mg MeCbl injections using tablets, it gave me a way to tell, objectively, when I was getting that amount.absorbed. There is no bias in the method. It isn't what I think, it's what the colorimetry method calculates and matches to a measured injected dose. So, under the lip I would need about 50 mg at each of 3 doses per day to match the effectiveness AND the urine color of 10 mg SC injected 3 times a day. That comes out to 20% absorption under the lip. However, it took about 3 hours to absorb that much which is not practical for me. For somebody trying to absorb 100 mcg to 200 mcg under the lip from a 1mg tablet or 500-1000 mcg from a 5mg tablet works well. And in the N=1000 study I did for the symptoms questionnaire with either a 1 mg or a 5mg tablet for one hour while giving a lifetime symptoms history, NOBODY could tell the difference by amount of feeling. That depends on the level of deficiency and the number of fast reacting symptoms a person has and is affected between 5 minutes and the hour long period. I got totally floored by the first 1mg tablet under the tongue. And It started in the first 5 minutes. As I could feel each tab;let for the first year I could also, and so could many people, feel it just as quickly with the under lip method. It wasn't any slower to onset. Now I can't feel anything at all from any dose. But it sure does color my urine. The colorimetry can "see" the color I can't see by the naked eye. There is a way to see very low levels of B12 in the urine but that would take a bigger setup and a lot of work to calibrate it. And putting urine through an atomizer is not appealing.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
Messages
15,786
I'm pretty sure there's no scientific support behind measuring B12 absorption based on the color of your urine. In addition to B12 not having a consistent effect upon urine color, other things can impact it. And I rather doubt these filters or cellphone apps or whatever have been in any manner verified to provide the data claimed.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
From the way you talk you seem to assum science comes from only some places. I studied science and engineering. I had two courses in experimental design. I've spent 25 years working for health insurance figuring out what their data means. I spent 25 years doing engineering and science. I prepared the data, analysed it, wrote parts of the papers we did and presented papers at group health conferences. Of course you might not have understood the subjects as they were rather specialized; things like How reimbursement plans affect provider behaviors. What things go better with fee for service as opposed to salaried or capitated or hybrid payment plan. My real interest was what was going to save my life?

Science is practicing the scientific method. So for instance one writes out the directions and then others replicate it, or not and say why. So if you wanted to get in there and do some science, you could try to replicate my results. Then as you go through all the iterations and all the little things to be learned or skills to be had.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method


The scientific method as a cyclic or iterative process[1]
The scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena, acquiring new knowledge, or correcting and integrating previous knowledge.[2] To be termed scientific, a method of inquiry is commonly based on empirical or measurable evidence subject to specific principles of reasoning.[3] The Oxford Dictionaries Online define the scientific method as "a method or procedure that has characterized natural science since the 17th century, consisting in systematic observation, measurement, and experiment, and the formulation, testing, and modification of hypotheses".[4] Experiments need to be designed to test hypotheses. The most important part of the scientific method is the experiment.[5]

So there is how science is done. And it is exactly what I have been doing for decades. You too might enjoy doing so science. You seem hot to defend your hypothesis that B12 can't be absorbed under the upper lip. Design the experiment and prove it or at least demonstrate it

So for instance, I used to be a professional photographer. I had a set of color printing filters. Subtractive color so the 3 colors are magenta, cyan and yellow. By building a filter pack so that the color of the urine is neutral gray, compared to the Kodak 18% gray card, then I know in color increments of "Just Noticeable Difference" for each color, what amounts of each color is needed for canceling out the yellow of the urine and the magenta of the B12. B12 is magenta in solution, not red. Even if it were red that would mean the additional yellow would have to be canceled out too, and there is already yellow in urine. So using a daylight color balance incandescent full spectrum light and taking the color to neutral grey by comparison I can know the exact amount of magenta is being canceled out by the cyan and yellow. By taking a picture and then loading it into photoshop or some other picture manipulation, there is the ability to change the hue of each of the 3 colors, and once more using Just Noticeable Differences of color in the software manipulating the picture. On the other hand, each picture can be read for the precise amount of magenta is in place just by loading the picture and bring up the color tool. It gives one 3 numbers, one for each color. So the cell phone photograph becomes a digital color meter, something I never got when I was doing photography becasue it was very expensive in the 70s and I got injured and that ended that.

So now with photoshop type software and a phone anybody can have a digital color analysis of their picture. It doesn't matter what kind of digital camera. I use my Nikon because that is what I have And analog color works very well. That is how analog photographic process color pictures were balanced from 1930s to present. That is your lack of knowledge, not lack of validity of the system by which it works. I don't know your age, but it's possible you never spent thousands of hours in a darkroom making prints and learning the art and science of photography. I came very close to going to an art school instead of an engineering school. Now that very engineering school is one of the foremost digital art schools in the country at the same time as a leading engineering school. Computers mixed them all up. The tools of digital art have become tools of science. You give my explanation to anybody with the knowledge base to understand it and they would say "Oh, of course. It's trivial". It's basically the same thing as saying "People who eat garlic have garlic breath" and If you rub the bottom of a person's foot with garlic they can also have garlic breath. Then by comparing the amount of garlic breath with a suitable measurement device it can be calculated how much garlic juice got into the body and by using different sizes of garlic dose can come up with a scale of breath intensity at a given dose. And a persons nose can tell the differences quite well. Some dogs can be trained to smell cancer, diabetes and many others.

I am perfectly capable of practicing science, as are you if you learn how to do it and can learn to ask questions of the physical things that can be answered. It's not something mysterious It sounds pretty silly to say that maybe the b12 could get in the urine from a pill via the blood serum but that it can't mean that some was absorbed. SO if you would like to finance a replication of all the things that need to be replicated, be my guest, ans no pharmaceutical company is going to.

I've spent over 30,000 hours since 1978 solving these problems, using scientific methods because that is how I was educated. This whole absorbtion thing was replicated by another man, in the UK. I did injections from 1mg to 100mg to make a calibrated scale of color (urine). I did 1 mg to 60 mg injections 3x per day also making a calibrated scale. They were different becasue in the single injection 98-99% is excreted and the serum level isn't steady. Doing 3 injections SC a day makes for a very even background amount as the serum level, is always about the same, so that became the base for incremental increase to be compared with. That way any time of day was suitable as the serum level was always the cumulative level of about 5 or 6 injections each coming into serum in diminishing quantities.

Right now I'm looking for a person up at the U who could run some NMR and mass spec analysis of a number of samples to find the difference. Then we will be playing with big expensive tools of science, physical chemistry. My ex wife learned to do that in school as a chemistry major. Maybe she needs to take the instrumental chemistry course so she has access to the instruments. Yes, my wife of 3 decades is a chemist. Mendel did science with beans and a plot of ground.

If transdermal absorption doesn't work there are a lot of medications that just are not delivering their benefits. A person on fentanyl patches on thj skin, and then there are the little pieces of sticky gelatin that stick to the gum or cheek to allow absorption of a medication for a day. Go learn about the process of science, of doing experimental trials, systematically and repeatedly doing them over and over. 1000 measurements can be treated statistically and even allow calculation of probability of the results due to chance. So the 15% to 25% as the 95% range, and 10% to 33% the extremes. How often was it 33%? only a very few times How many times was it at least 10% (100%). How often was it between 15%and 25%, about 95%.of the time. So how about you do 1000 such trials, I'l help you with the statistical processing (they have an app for that now). You will need about 30 grams of MeCbl crystal, and the sterile saline to make the 20mg/ml solution and a few thousand syringes, a digital camera and photo processing software and about as much B12 in suitable tablets for the comparative trials.

Oh yes, I repeated a lot of the series with AdoCbl so I was comparing There were slight differences, bui none that were significant. It's retention was also influenced by folate levels. I don't have a $500,000 analytical balance but these days everybody can buy a $50 electronic scale that is sensitive to a 1 mcg change if doing quantitative. So if it was desired, the urine can be spun up in a centrifuge and the cobalamin will all collect at the bottom. You can do that with a test tube and a string too. Then you crystalize it and weigh it. Everything doesn't have to be the most impossibly expensive tools possible.

I bet that with you could replicate all the science I've done with maybe 10,000 hours since you will be working from written directions and don't have to figure it out. That "replication" from written directions is an important part of science. It assures that there are no unrevealed parts of the process. Another man has already done those basics and we shared that information a decade ago. Anybody who wants to replicate this I will help with supplying directions. In addition to the estimated 10,000 hours you might have some. I'm told that a PhD takes roughly 3000 hours to complete. The 30,000 hours is a lot like what Edison said, more perspiration than inspiration. Usually a systems analyst doesn't do a lot of repetitive simple grunt work. Grad students are much cheaper. You don't have to pay them $200/hr. Nobody wanted to pay for this work. The big pharma doesn't want to see vitamins curing all these things. They can charge $1000/month for maintaining somebody half dead with one drug replacing one of 600 biochemical reactions that is botched because of no active b12 and/or folate. And they can take 100% of GDP and still never return people to good health by that strategy.

It appears that you don't think people should pay me $200/hr to think. One consulting job lasted 20+ years until my medical disability caused to some extent by CyCbl and folic acid. I was doing all that research, perhaps 100 years worth if I took it all the way to writing each individual . Since I was building a SYSTEM of nutritional healing, not as a custom system for only me, but rather as a small vertical market system that could help many people find the custom nutrition each person needs. Since 1978 I've also been working out how more detailed data can change health care. And like with any computer system, there are lots of bugs along the way. However, I've been building it one working step at a time,not building out the whole thing based on some grand theory and then finding the first step doesn't work so everything built on it would be bogus.

The consulting firm I worked with on this was hired to find all the financial etc shenanigans (DOJ theory) going on in a large national system of benefit plans. They settled it with a consent decree and we were sent in, with another 10 firms at least to find all the stuff that was alleged and more. They couldn't find it. The had no idea of how to find it. So they hired a bunch of consultants, each firm made up of some of the top national consultants in often some very narrow fields. We were hire to invent the tools and methods needed to analyse the group health plan benefits in new ways to look at the data, and it was at a time of huge annual changes in technology. The first thing I saw was that the Request for information was asking incorrectly and induced all sorts of artifacts in the data. Second problem, they were delivered as millions of lines of data on wide green-bar and they hand counted from printouts, all the codes etc.

I know, don't choke. They also only delivered 10% samples as printouts. I ordered a 9 track tape for a PC-AT type machine with a 300 meg $6000 drive. Everything was changed to 100% sample delivered on any media format mutually agreeable. There are people who are hired for how they think to solve problems. I was one of them since 1978. I also very much enjoyed such projects.

We were hired to invent, find, buy, whatever was needed in order to be able to analyse health plans as never before. We found all sorts of bugs in the insurance companies software.

Basically everything we did was trade secrets. We were also given 100% access. We did a lot of conference presentations at the bleeding edge of group health management comparing compensation methods influencing provider behavior. The point is the confirmation from thousands of people using under the lip placement successfully. The exact numbers don't matter. If it is getting out the urine in an amount that is visible, there is enough in the body for most healing and most people.. 10% of a 1000 mcg is enough. 5% of 2000 mcg is good. 33% of either is great as published research has found dose proportional healing to an extent from MeCbl. Certainly replicate or fail at replicating it. What you want to believe or whatever you think my motives are or whatever hypotheses you have for what you say, my criteria is "does it work?" if followed as written, basically follow the healing induced "slow" refeeding syndrome deficiencies. I don't care who's hypothesis says it should be something else. By all means try it and see if the refeeding symptoms get better or worse or no change. The "program" allows keeping track of these symptoms at the timing required so that the person using it can keep track of what they actually do over weeks and months and look for the persons patterns of what works for them and what doesn't. It's about a person using what works best in combinations and that may change as they add or delete various items. This comes out of data analysis. Some items will be "healing flags" and some will be "side effects" and some will be induced deficiency symptoms. Once a person gets healing dozens or more of symptoms may change daily or more often and knowing what is important for one reason or another or is literally a transient intermediate condition. I've had doctors say none of these symptoms matter at all and to ignore them. I was threatened to be booted from a practice if I remained "hypervigilant". What I was doing was observing and collecting data. What I find is that much is revealed in those. Ignoring them for the past 70 years hasn't worked for any of us. . Now that every phone has surpassed the processing power of an old Cray supercomputer that can be harnessed to keep track of what works for the person using it in many complicated situations.

Timing is important. I could feel healing turn on in the first hour. That first hour I knew my life was changed, and it came after 30 years of trying to find a nutrient that actually helped in any way. 3 days later I could feel low potassium, which I have had all my life on and off. From there on in I was out to maintain the healing pragmatically, not theoretically. That doesn't appear to work very well for most people. The AMA back in the mid 50s said that the immediate results were placebo. So I had said to myself, what do I need to do to keep the "placebo" benefits going strong. The answer is the same as I've described it many other ways. I finally did what they did in the Deplin drug trials, tried the two different doses, 7.5mg or 15mg. It was amazing to feel the folate deficiency symptoms disappearing almost as I watched. It was a very different thing than 400 or 800 or 1200 mcg which were dominated by 3rd day onset refeeding symptoms. At 8mg (7.5mg other packaging) the paradoxical deficiency symptoms start disappearing too. The lower doses were just so overwhelmed with the unfulfilled need for folate in other compartments that it was hard to see the good it is doing. For me at 15mg, I was down to 2 weakly expressed symptoms. At 30mg I have no folate deficiency symptoms most of the time. I had years of unneeded misery until I could afford to try 7.5 or 15 mg and wanted to do a check on whether the slow titration was worthwhile or not. I realized that like potassium it was best to reach effective levels fast and that from 7.5mg and up there was a vast reduction of the paradoxical folate deficiency symptoms.So I dithered for 5 years I could have been already healed.

DOWN with unnecessary misery.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Some people dissolve them more slowly under the gums. No methylB12 is going to be absorbed there, but I suppose it trickles down to the sublingual area or straight to the GI tract.

I found just the paper for you.https://static1.squarespace.com/sta...366225232697/Absorption+via+buccal+mucosa.pdf

"Even though the sublingual mucosa is relatively more permeable than the buccal mucosa, it is not suitable for an oral transmucosal delivery system. The sublingual region lacks an expanse of smooth muscle or immobile mucosa and is constantly washed by a considerable amount of saliva making it difficult for device placement. Because of the high permeability and the rich blood supply, the sublingual route is capable of producing a rapid onset of action making it appropriate for drugs with short delivery period requirements with infrequent dosing regimen. Due to two important differences between the sublingual mucosa and the buccal mucosa, the latter is a more preferred route for systemic transmucosal drug delivery (18, 23). First difference being in the permeability characteristics of the region, where the buccal mucosa is less permeable and is thus not able to give a rapid onset of absorption (i.e., more suitable for a sustained release formulation). Second being that, the buccal mucosa has an expanse of smooth muscle and relatively immobile mucosa which makes it a more desirable region for retentive systems used for oral transmucosal drug delivery. Thus the buccal mucosa is more fitted for sustained delivery applications, delivery of less permeable molecules, and perhaps peptide drugs."
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Is there anything published in a journal?

@Valentijn -
It was my intention to reply far more quickly. I wrote it and that was a few days ago when suddenly what I had WRITTEN disappeared into cyber space with a "internal server error" from PR.
The last 8 weeks has been non stop misery with what appears to be antibiotic injury to my liver and/or maybe other factors unknown, a repeat of 18 months before. Tests; and more tests and trying to figure out what damaged my liver and what to do. I've been too sick to do much of anything.

By late 1987 I had published a variety of technical reviews and computer articles in BYTE, S-100 BUS JOURNAL and SUPERMICRO. I was invited to write a significant article on reusable code for the Encyclopedia of Microcomputers, a foundational article for Oject Oriented Programing which was developing but not yet named as far as I know. I got too sick to write it and had to excuse myself.

Peer reviewed research articles are all asking questions. Then they go through asking the questions in a very specific way and then attempting to give the research evidence as proving or disproving their hypothesis ("question"). Disproving a hypothesis is also needed to find out what works and what doesn't.

Often the type of question is of the "what changes occur"? A couple of years ago I saw a study of a new brand Cyancobalamin. The company had "proven" that their brand of CyCbl with an amendment for improving absorption did in fact double the passive absorption; from 1% to 2%. Isn't that wonderful, and they proved it. My questions was "Why was it even worth spending one cent on this research?" If it had any effect for me it would be to ruin my health twice as fast.

In any case, this type of study "proves" it has hit the target, it increases absorbtion. However, there is no evidence of improved healing.

It doesn't change the 10 mcg a day that the body MIGHT be able to convert to MeCbl & AdoCbl from CyCbl. It's the same 10 mcg that is converted from 1000 mcg CyCbl injection which research tells us is 99% excreted unchanged. I trust that the numbers are "real", that they ran the trials and got the results they claimed. Isn't the point about improving health? Or is it to ask questiuons that hit your desired target suggesting they might do something. Injected CyCbl is about 1% as active as an injected five star MeCbl. Daily oral 1000mcg CyCbl was "proven" decades ago to absorb enough to equal the "steady" serum levels of the monthly injection for days other than the day following injection, 99% excreted unchanged in a day or two.

I realize that one has to use surrogate endpoints. As a systems analyst in health care I used all kinds surrogate endpoints. Antibiotics are supposed to kill the bacteria and not the patient. If it gets rid of the bad bacteria it is a success. If it causes potentially eventuial toxic liver damage and even death, not so sucessful. I ran my own longitudinal study of my treament by 100+ various doctors over 20 years,their efficacy at diagnosing and treating what I have now demonstated to be nutrient deficiencies by following a plan of nutrition that healed, visibly. I can't prove I would have died at some time from 11 years to 24 years after diagnosis of congestive heart failure. I can't prove that another 13 years of ascites would have killed me.

But I did survive with a damaged liver and had problems all over again from antibiotics. My internist I started with in 2002. I looked like death slightly warmed over at that time. At my first appointment following MeCbl startup, about 3 weeks after May 21st, 2003, everybody in the office commented on how different I looked. They could all see additional healing at each 3-4 week interval I was having appointments. He said after a year "I have never seen anybody come back from so far over the edge". After several more years of healing my ex wife who hadn't seen me for 9 months came over to see me. I opened the door for her, she looked at me and looked at somebody else she knew there and asked "Where is Fred, I was supposed to meet him here at 1:00? I said "Right here" and her jaw dropped. We had been married for 33 1/3 years (the breakable vinyl anniversary.)

Surrogate endpoints that are "subjective" especially for therapies that don't directly affect readily observable symptoms and signs can be difficult. And worse, it is all statistical.

My object was never to provide a few little foundational bricks in a wall that wouldn't be figured out for anothger 100 years at the rate science was getting B12 and folate totally wrong. I needed to HEAL. NOW! Or I was going to die, soon. So I needed a completely different approach than the contributing of small bricks. I needed to do the research in a way that it gave me answers every day that might make the difference, that could make a change that would keep me alive for another day or week or year or decade. I had to gain days of life faster than I expended them doing the work.

Research is supposed to form a chain of logic. The current research is supposed to be the basis and one builds off of that. So that now, after 70+ years of B12 and folate research one would hope that they have been buidling a valid logic. That vaild logical chain requires valid citations and that important research be validated by additional research. The chain of nutritional logic that was built since 1930 on folates and cobalamins one would think that 87 years of scientific researxch would actually be able to recognnize B12 and folate deficiencies and fix them.

I had NOT A CHANCE IN HELL of healing on the "scientifically PROVEN" B12(CyCbl, HyCbl) and folate (folic acid). So by deciding to ignore symptoms and the people with responsive to CyCbl symptoms, and insist on qualifying by tests, they elliminated the ability to even recognize the symptoms of B12 deficiency and said "DON'T LOOK THERE" and go by tests only, they could cut down the number of people to be treated by something like 95%. Of course that caused 200 symptoms to become "mystery diseases" instead of nutritional deficiency symptoms, and made millions of people have long term chronic illnesses that first they accuse people of being fakers who have them as they explode in frequency, many lives ruined and many killed.

As a contrarian I paid attention to all those "so-called" non-specific "placebo" effects and they told me everything. So it worked like this.

approximate days
Already taking a complete set of vitamins including CyCbl and folic acid.

Day 1 - Find out that MeCbl works on more than 30 symptoms immediately, vast increase in energy, lifelong depression started lifiting, eyesight brightening, literally.
Day 2 - Even more symptoms affected by MeCbl
Day 3 - A severe blossoming of hypokalemia symptoms happened, titrated to the necessaRY 1200MG of potassium daily, other symptoms (methylfolate deficiency) explode also, but of unknown cause.
Day 4 through 270, titrate MeCbl and alternating with potassium
Day 270 - AdoCbl - another 50 or so symptoms start being affected with a vast increase in energy.
Day 273 - A large increase in potassium, a large increase in folate deficiency symptoms.
Day 300 400mcg l-methylfolate, blew my socks off. All those worsening symptoms got a little better.
Day 303 - Folate deficiency starts worsening in other compartments.

And on it continued as I started L-carnitine fumarate and titrated folate as more healing took place. And after the Deadlock Quartet was established in all compartments, my muscles grew back, then it was adjusting all the b-vitamins by titration to maximum effectiveness. So I I have had 20,000+ trials in 14 years, running as a system.
Every day I learned something and was able to correct my titrations towards desired results.
All the vitamins and minerals are all dependent on each other. I had set out to make a dynamic working system, not snapshots of single items having a "provabler" microscopic effect that adds up to a non working system becasue of the way they are tested,

During the 14 years to date I do urine colorimetry multiple times per day. It tells me when I am becoming for unknown reasons, periodicly folate deficient so I can up my dose for a few days each 2 weeks. It gives me a one or two day warning when something is going wrong.

With titrations effects being observable in 1 to 4 days, I may be doing several different titrations per day and several colorimetries and so forth. Finding that the meaningful period for gather nutritional defic iency data and responses takes 4 days per cycle. I look for the fearliest saymp[toms to show up, not the most severe by letting it run a month or a year before adjusting. So all in all I have run thousands of trials each year. First there is the correction of the earliest to respond syumptoms on day 1, then there are the increases in refeeding syndrome sympotms, their correction by day 4, and once I distinguished the potassium and folate, they both could be titrated together.


So, in the 30s, they started looking for the causes of pernicious anemia nd then pinned down liver extract concentrate as containing "protein mystery factor". More studies with liver extract concentrate demonstrated that women with postpartum depression could be released from the hospital CURED, in 3 days of. A similar study with hallucinating schizophrenics also showed that they could reach discharge criteria in 3 days of the protein mystery factor in the liver extract concentrate. And it turned out that 2 liters of raw liver puree daily could be used as treatment for pernicious anemia.

When Cyanocobalamin was identified as protein mystery factor it wasn't until 1971 that the mistake leading to that failure of the correct identification was known. However, CyCbl was tested to replicate the post partum deptression and the hallucinating schizophrenics and failed, and failed. It was clear that CyCbl wasn't "protein mystery factor". It did get around pernicious anemia for about 2/3s of sufferers after a while. The other third simply died. Liver extract concentrate could work on 100% of those with PA. Some time in 1950s when they ignored the failure and suddenly the failure to validate failed to matter. They got a disastrous Nobel Prize and became sanctified.

So somehow, despite total failure at replication of the effects of "protein mystery factor" suddenly CyCbl was a complete success. They lost all my trust while I was still a kid suffering from AdoCbl, MeCbl and l-methylfolate deficiencies. Then when correctly identified in 1971 as Methylcobalamin and Adenosylcobalamin, did they get rid of the fraud, CyCbl? Nope. And that is why my body suffered from the degeneration diseases of CFS, FMS, IBS, and so on for decades, why I've been sick most of my life.

Research based on the logic chain of CyCbl replacing the effectiveness of "protein mystery factor" is bogus. CyCbl being the human active forms of B12 is BOGUS. This reveal of the real B12s that works for essentially 100% of persons when cofactors are present, rather than the official b12 that works pretty poorly for about 2/3 of the people in any given study.

Of course what would one expect when people with lots of responsive symptoms that are defined as placebo when improved by a CyCbl injection, thereby excluding many people from studies becasue they had the wrong numbers and too many symptoms other than pernicious anemia, the ONE thing CyCbl help some people semi-reliably. Instead 200 symptoms are made orphan symptoms since they have been defined as not CyCbl deficiency and not folic acid deficiency. Instead they don't really exist and they are all placebo and so when we have refeeding syndrome when we start to heal 200 symptoms, we must be lying or something. I've had plenty of doctors say that.

I want to give you some background of why this that I have done was done the way I did it. I had been working on the problem from 1977 or 78 to 2003 and came up with a hypothesis which was only sort of correct and evolved. For 25 years I read all the research from 30s and onwards on B12 and folate. In 1979-81 I did a 2 years trial of dessicated liver tablets, 100 per day. It confimed my hypothesis, the mystery item in liver was not Cyanocobalamin and folic acid. It took six months for the lights to come on each time. Each time I was too sick to continue each time (the ahha to refeeding syndrome now recognized). I hypothesized that AdoCbl, MeCbl and L-methylfolate was the mystery item. By then I had found and read the 1971 paper describing the identification of REAL B12s and that CyCbl was a lab mistake.

I investigated. A small vial of MeCbl was available for experiements at high cost, like $1000, from France. I continued doing trials on every nutrient and nothing made any difference. I crashed in December, 1987. In 2003 I was 10 years into congestive heart failure (cumulative 80% mortality at 10 years post diagnosis). I tried MeCbl. I knew in less than an hour that my life was changed, but only if could stay well. I was prepared for hypokalemia this time. However it took until 2016 to fully solve the folate contradictory symptoms.
I started the N=1000 history questionaire, a few days after the first pill of MeCbl blew off my shoes. It didn't start with any specific number, didn't start with any specific objective except to figure out if others had similar responses to me and learn how to make the "placebo effects" of healing become the real thing. So I took potassium and it cleared up the potassium deficiency symptoms and back to MeCbl inspired healing. I figured to match it up by patterns of symptoms. If it worked as a good questionaire for detecting b12 deficiency, that could be the basis of some data mining patterns for groups.

I was perhaps 30 histories into things and Enzymatic Therapy Methyl B12 became unavailable, backordered for months. So everything else was put on hold doing A-B comparisons for 10 brands with 5 people. I found Jarrow. For the next 5 or 6 years I found another 10 or more items that made large differences, as the most deficienct, next in line. Every one of them was in turn, a most deficienct item, and usually alternated with potassium and an increased unknown which turned out to be l-methylfolate. I started the injection trials in 2005, again necessity. While my body was healing, my CNS was getting worse. The Japanese high dose MeCbl studies pointed the way. And so did the 1-100 mg injection series. I found how much it took to turn on CNS and cord healing to some extent. There was a maximum effective amount. And thousands of comparative urine B12 amounts; 10,000 in all of injections and oral mucosal. I ruined a bunch of perfectly good injections of MeCbl by exposing it to light and seeing where the acne type lesions appear first and then getting rid of it again, over and over to find the curve. Then there was the glutathione trial that turned into how to cause demyelination experimentally.

It took years to do 1000 interviews and in the end there were subdivisions, such as 1 and 5mg, 3mg of AdoCbl with and without MeCbl, and so on. I was working on getting answers as quickly as possible to save my life.
And each compartment that had healing started also caused more deficiency symptoms, potassium and methylfolate and copper and boron and other things. I have worked on healing my body full time since the end of 2002 when I could no longer work reliably. The experience of refeeding syndrome, collecting 1000+ histories, 10,000 colorimetry trials, thousands of titration trials of l-methylfolate and folic acid, and folinic acid and extracted from veggies b-complex, 1 mg to 100mg injection series of MeCbl, a 0.1mg to 60mg 3 times a day injection series, several thousand oral mucosal absorption and colorimetry trials, "how to ruin MeCbl with light", "how to unintentionally cause demyelination taking Glutathione", designing an accurate pharmacokinetics model that complies with all the research. And so on would have taken 40-50+ years if all done serially, and another decade or two to write up all the different studies.

I was building a system for healing, each step based on the previous step, and much previous research on "B12" and "folate" was useless. CyCbl, HyCbl and folic acid give only very poor answers about L-methylfolate, AdoCbl andf MeCbl. And while there is some research and practice on refeeding, mostly in nursing journals, it was good for a list of deficient nutrients but not how to use them. Most of it was about using food for starvation rather than augmented nutrition of vitamins when the starvation was of specific nutrients, not calories.
To survive I had to solve it in real time, I didn't have the time to do 10 PhDs worth of research and writing and actually save my life.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
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@Freddd - I can't be bothered reading that essay. But I don't see any links, so presumably there is no published research supporting the use of urine color to assess B12 absorption.
 
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@Freddd amazing journey. I just want to say thank you so much for sharing all you learned over that long period. I really appreciate being able to "short cut" so many years of trial and error (although I'm not so naive to not expect there still to be lots to discover when applying it to my own healing).

15 days in to having made the switch from Hydroxycobalamin to MeCbl (and adding in cofactors). Titrating with pottassium and folate means I have got rid of the negative symptoms that I got at the start of the switch. Yet to experience much in the way of energy increase but hopeful that it will come.

Thank you again.
 

Freddd

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@Freddd - I can't be bothered reading that essay. But I don't see any links, so presumably there is no published research supporting the use of urine color to assess B12 absorption.

I was going for saving my life, and solving the entire system on the run instead of making one small foundational paper on B12 absorption that would make a nice footnote on a couple of other papers.as I am not willing to give up my life to make a "so what" contribution to foundational statements about something that anybody who isn't color blind can see that for Cbl to end up in the urine from the mucosa requires a trip through the blood to get to the kidneys.. Especially about something that is plain as the presumed nose on your face (presumed as I've never seen your face, just a noseless cartoon).

By late 1987 I had published a variety of technical reviews and computer articles in BYTE, S-100 BUS JOURNAL and SUPERMICRO. I was invited to write a significant article on reusable code for the Encyclopedia of Microcomputers, a foundational article for Object Oriented Programing which was developing but not yet named as far as I know. I got too sick to write it and had to excuse myself. I got worse until May 21st, 2003 and then turned it around.

That should make it more obvious where my publications were. And other things I was part of included lots of claims and finances and practice patterns, strenuous reading. I obviously wasted my time trying to explain anything somebody who doesn't want to understand. Be in good health. I may be dying of some strange liver disease from antibiotic damage. That goes back 18 months. Continuing to work on WHY and how to heal is far more important to me. And it all may go back to MMA acidemia (from severe AdoCbl and/or carnitine deficiency and liver damage going back to 1992 and liver damage during multi organ failure due to folic acid and CyCbl in part. Maybe knowing that will save your life some day. Buy the book and app when it's done, if I manage to finish it before I die, which I hope to do. That's the only way to make it simple enough to be doable. Be in ghood health.
 

Valentijn

Senior Member
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15,786
@Freddd - Your life experience isn't relevant to the pseudo-scientific claim you're making. Though I hope you don't feel that the challenge of pseudo-scientific claims in any manner calls your personal experiences into question.
 

Freddd

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@Freddd - Your life experience isn't relevant to the pseudo-scientific claim you're making. Though I hope you don't feel that the challenge of pseudo-scientific claims in any manner calls your personal experiences into question.

Valentijn,


"Your life experience isn't relevant to the pseudo-scientific claim you're making. Though I hope you don't feel that the challenge of pseudo-scientific claims in any manner calls your personal experiences into question"

LOL

I realize now it is quite impossible for me to explain anything to you.

You are free to understand or misunderstand whatever you. I engineered a working system that provides a method that I have used for giving me 13 years of life that was healthier than the first 55 years. Being a systems and data specialist I designed a database and a procedure that allowed me to determine what data mattered. Once it was clear from the data that what I was dealing with,in terms of healing, was "refeeding syndrome". Go look it up if you want. What you will find everything basically known about it comes from nursing journals, who did the science by engineering a diet that didn't kill as many people as fast. They had to recognize that hypokalemia before it killed people, which with starvation, happens in a few days of refeeding. As you are playing "You bet your life" however you want, it's your life. Define it however it works, or doesn't work, for yourself.
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
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689
Location
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@Freddd You've used your body as a scientific laboratory from which many of us have benefited, and for that I offer thanks. I've been dancing--if I can be said to dance at all these days--around multiple deficiencies in MeB12, Folate and Adenosyl B12. Not to mention many cofactors. I am not the disciplined scientist you are, though I am faithful to my basic Excell chart of supplements and symptoms. Over the two years of keeping it, it has brought deficiencies to light, often only in retrospect. But I do see a clicking into place of some of the tumblers of the mystery lock that is my body chemistry as I persist, pause and move forward wth one supplement after another.

If it has anything to do with all this balancing, I, for one would find immense value in your app!

You seem to have the right temperament for the job. Lucky us. We can benefit from your trials. And, if we're persistent in sharing your findings, some of our health practitioners as well. I've only begun to try to disabuse my pcp of false beliefs, like the efficacy of cyanocobalamin--she offered me injections of that just last month as the only B12 therapy offered at Mass General Hospital in Boston. No doubt this sounds bleak to you, though from all you say, and all I've experienced in my own limited experience, it's the general status of where we are in health care.

Take care, and through your current challenge, I hope you can find your way to wellness.
 
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Freddd

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@Freddd You've used your body as a scientific laboratory from which many of us have benefited, and for that I offer thanks. I've been dancing--if I can be said to dance at all these days--around multiple deficiencies in MeB12, Folate and Adenosyl B12. Not to mention many cofactors. I am not the disciplined scientist you are, though I am faithful to my basic Excell chart of supplements and symptoms. Over the two years of keeping it, it has brought deficiencies to light, often only in retrospect. But I do see a clicking into place of some of the tumblers of the mystery lock that is my body chemistry as I persist, pause and move forward wth one supplement after another.

If it has anything to do with all this balancing, I, for one would find immense value in your app!

You seem to have the right temperament for the job. Lucky us. We can benefit from your trials. And, if we're persistent in sharing your findings, some of our health practitioners as well. I've only begun to try to disabuse my pcp of false beliefs, like the efficacy of cyanocobalamin--she offered me injections of that just last month as the only B12 therapy offered at Mass General Hospital in Boston. No doubt this sounds bleak to you, though from all you say, and all I've experienced in my own limited experience, it's the general status of where we are in health care.

Take care, and through your current challenge, I hope you can find your way to wellness.

Hi Kathievans,

I read most all the published studies leading up to finding B12 in 1948 and how the research went so very wrong. A lot of that was written up in Life Extension Magazine. Based on journal articles, the best that can be done for adult onset CblC disease case is to give them HyCbl (works poorly, perhaps 1% as well as AdoCbl and MecBL, if at all for perhaps 2/3 of people), folic acid which works not at all for 20%, very poorly for 30%, and not so well for many others. And if many are like me they also can't make use of folinic acid or many vegetable folates. The third ingredient of their essential triad of nutrients is ALCAR which as my experience indicates works for about 10% instead of L-carnitine fumarate which appears to work for about 90% of this population. And they admit, that their treatment has poor results. The ones for whom it doesn't work die or end up in a nursing home with severe neurological damage and hundreds of other symptoms. They don't understand the extreme heterogeneity of symptoms, why their treatment doesn't work well and they are sure that they are using the best treatment possible when every choice in vitamin and nutrient form used of the triad is the worst possible that might work at all at keeping them alive but not healthy. And those unfortunate folks with what used to be thought of as the only real B12 deficiency, pernicious anemia, are maintained in a terribly ill state with one CyCbl injection a month in the USA, and that is called success.

Drug companies don't see a multi billion dollar drug there. It would wipe out billions and billions and billions in drug profits from treating the symptoms of deficiencies without curing a thing. Metafolin was a lifesaver for me. A company figured out how to make a stable form of human active l-methylfolate. Once again it was a real eye opener in the first hours and days. It actually worked

It does look bleak. I figured out the MeCbl. AdoCbl and methylfolate from reading the research by 1979. The only problem that was 20 years before any of them much less all 3 were available and some of our trusty congress and senate critters want to ban the use of these as supplements. One woman I talked to in Norway told about the prescriptionization of supplements. Her $3.monthly calcium supplement became an $80 prescription, which she couldn't afford..

Good luck. I don't know of any one size fits all program. I have never found a "simple" way to do this. One has to learn to recognize the response patterns of their own bodies which means recognizing the patterns of symptoms and their meanings for adjusting the nutritional balance, a longitudinal self-study with response feedback with maybe 20-30 nutrients.. Nobody else is going to spend 1000 hours a year studying your body to figure out what your symptoms mean. And they will be sure that you use folic acid and CyCbl, the official folate and official b12 instead of the human active forms.
 

Kathevans

Senior Member
Messages
689
Location
Boston, Massachusetts
@Freddd Earlier in the thread, you speak of having developed your own B12 spray. Have you ever used the spray transdermally? Just curious. I'm currently using the B-12 Oils Methyl and Adenosyl/Methyl sprays. They work well and have helped me avoid the countless sublinguals. Whatever the additives are in these, they cause mucus in my throat and stomach. Still, the canisters are not always reliable in the amount they deliver, so ultimately you don't know exactly what you're getting. You can feel it make its way into you, though, and give your body a little kick.

I understand from Greg Russell-Jones, the biochemist who runs the company, that the oils need just that, some form of oil in order to make their way through the layers of skin, so perhaps this wouldn't work unless you specifically planned to use your spray in this way... If you're wondering, here is some info from Greg:

"The bottles are 15 ml pump bottles. Each "squirt" from the pump delivers 0.25 ml per pump. This means that there are around 60 doses per bottle. We always slightly over-fill the bottle.

The methylB12 is dissolved at 3.0 mg/ml so each squirt delivers 0.75 mg per dose. This is very close to the suggested dose by several authors, however no-one has really titrated how much you need.

The feed-back that we have received suggested that the dose is pretty much about right.
It is very hard to tell how much is absorbed. Experiments done previously suggest that the absorption is over 80%, however these studies have not been performed in humans. We are currently running a clinical trial to compare the B12oils with injected and oral. The trial is going well, however, recruitment has been very slow and we have no data as yet."

The combined product contains: 1.8 mg ado, 0.7 mg meB12
 
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Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
@Freddd Earlier in the thread, you speak of having developed your own B12 spray. Have you ever used the spray transdermally? Just curious. I'm currently using the B-12 Oils Methyl and Adenosyl/Methyl sprays. They work well and have helped me avoid the countless sublinguals. Whatever the additives are in these, they cause mucus in my throat and stomach. Still, the canisters are not always reliable in the amount they deliver, so ultimately you don't know exactly what you're getting. You can feel it make its way into you, though, and give your body a little kick.

I understand from Greg Russell-Jones, the biochemist who runs the company, that the oils need just that, some form of oil in order to make their way through the layers of skin, so perhaps this wouldn't work unless you specifically planned to use your spray in this way... If you're wondering, here is some info from Greg:

"The bottles are 15 ml pump bottles. Each "squirt" from the pump delivers 0.25 ml per pump. This means that there are around 60 doses per bottle. We always slightly over-fill the bottle.

The methylB12 is dissolved at 3.0 mg/ml so each squirt delivers 0.75 mg per dose. This is very close to the suggested dose by several authors, however no-one has really titrated how much you need.

The feed-back that we have received suggested that the dose is pretty much about right.
It is very hard to tell how much is absorbed. Experiments done previously suggest that the absorption is over 80%, however these studies have not been performed in humans. We are currently running a clinical trial to compare the B12oils with injected and oral. The trial is going well, however, recruitment has been very slow and we have no data as yet."

The combined product contains: 1.8 mg ado, 0.7 mg meB12

Hi Kathievans,

I haven't tried any oils suspension of B12. The problem with the dry skin is that the b12 just sits there. It has to be dissolved in water or something I would have thought. The saline solution I used was a 10mg/ml solution with a 0.1ml pump spray, which nominally delivers 1 mg approximate. The commercial oral sprays all had flavors, sweetening and things that make sure they don't absorb well, in my comparative experience. The glycerine and other ingredients that make for massive outpouring of mucous and saliva rapidly wash the B12 down the throat reducing potential absorption to about 1% as a swallowed this is just my description. However, I was unable to cause sufficient MeCbl absorption with any commercial spray sufficient to be sufficiently visible for colorimetry. With the plain saline and the plain saline with a small amount of Boric Acid (Boron, a necessary trace mineral that can improve methylation activity for some people). Insufficient boron can allow run away unmanageable tooth caries. The Anabolic Dibencoplex (AdoCbl and Borate) made a noticeable difference with the Boron compared to brands that had no boron. Now that wouldn't affect me because I was deficient in boron.

To reach 5% absorption was not easy with the saline spray. I had to hold my mouth such that the B12 spray was allowed to sit on the tissues for 5 to 10 minutes per spray. So, 3 sprays over an hour could provide 150 mcg absorbed into the blood serum or thereabouts.based on injection trials, about 100+ mcg of MeCbl going to serum is generally enough to give a strong healing response, if a person has the needed cofactors

If they wish to have some consulting I can tell them things that will take them years to find out about oral, sublingual/buccal and injections of all sizes. I might even be able to help them select the best crystal to start with.
 
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Thank you for researching and sharing this information. I have been reading and rereading through your posts. It is fascinating and has been very helpful to me and I'm sure many, many other people.

I hope you are healing from the injury to your liver.