1. Patients launch a $1.27 million crowdfunding campaign for ME/CFS gut microbiome study.
    Check out the website, Facebook and Twitter. Join in donate and spread the word!
ME/CFS and the Magic of the Canine Factor
There's been plenty of research indicating that having pets is good for your health. I never really noticed any particular benefits to having cats, though that may have had more to do with my cats. They've been fairly indifferent to my presence and we've shared a live-and-let-live...
Discuss the article on the Forums.

Suffering and spirituality 2

Discussion in 'Spirituality and ME/CFS' started by Nielk, Aug 27, 2011.

  1. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    5,081
    Likes:
    4,641
    Queens, NY
    Thanks Maddie,

    This was not sent to me personally. It was a blog that he sent to all who subscribe to him. (or whose e-mail address he has).
    I believe that God is the Creator and he is only good. I have very strong faith and if anything this experience of my illness has been a humbling experience showing me that I am not in control. Yes, I need to do whatever I humanly possibly can to help my situation but, my true recovery will happen when God thinks its the right time. I do not believe that it's a punishment from god. It goes back to the old age question ' why do good people suffer" and there is no answer. or no answer that we can logically understand. Like you said, all we can do is the best of our capabilities and hope for the best results possible.
    I was just overwhelmed by his emphasis on putting on a guilt trip on me on top of everything else I have to deal with. Way, way too much!
  2. CJB

    CJB Senior Member

    Messages:
    743
    Likes:
    387
    Oregon
    It's ironic that he gave you a "pain antidote" and then gave you a big dose of pain.

    Please be gentle with yourself. I know it stings, but it's his ignorance to deal with and doesn't reflect at all on you.

    :hug:
    Nielk likes this.
  3. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,420
    Likes:
    749
    Salt Lake City
    I read the Rabbi's letter a page back. I spent 30 years in severe untreated chronic pain from injuries received when some guy ran a red light. The b12 and folate deficiencies caused massive pain. All in all, my overall pain levels are now about 5% or less of what they were 9 years ago. Most of that, say 75%, occurred in the first 9 months of methylb12 plus cofactors. The adb12 and Metafolin came later. It had NOTHING to do with anything the rabbi talked about. I'm a tantric priest. I help people with their spiritual purification. I'll tell you a few things I have run into. One woman had a lot of pain in her abdomen. She had nightmares caused by a past life death trauma. She was run through with a sword in a lifetime some centuries back. Another had pain in her back. It was where she was held down by a neighbor teen who raped her multiple times when she was a 3 or 4 year old in this life. When that was cleared she dropped back to a previous life and to torture in a concentration camp in WW2 causing all manner of emotional pain. I just don't buy what he has to say. Yes, it is possible for stress, and self-deception and fears to increase our pain. But here we are with deficiencies that cause inflammation, neurological pain, muscle pain, joint pain and so on. Many of us have had some hard milage and been in horrible wrecks and other hazards of life. So sure, some of us increase our pain to some degree. However, when a person heals with these vitamins and supplements and some damage is repaired and much functional problems are no longer, most of the pain goes too, without any change of the person themselves. I don't buy his thesis. I've seen too many people get rid of most of their pain by correcting their nutritional problems. And I've seen people release pain in their bodies by clearing traumas from their current and previous lives. That has generally been a small fraction of the pain caused by health problems. Pain caused by personality disorders appears quite rare, at least in my experience.

    You may not choose to believe what I have said. I'm just trying to represent what I have found over and over. Good luck all.
    Lou and CJB like this.
  4. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    5,081
    Likes:
    4,641
    Queens, NY
    I have so many problems with this statement on so many levels, I have a hard time even starting!

    Really? I would really like to see where this quote comes from. The greatest Bible figures suffered a lot in their life. What about the Holocaust generation?
    Are we to explain it away as a collective weakening of character that these great souls had to endure so much pain? What about Job? He was a most righteous man yet, saw so much pain without wavering.

    I cannot accept the above mentioned quote and it goes against everything I have learned.
  5. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    5,081
    Likes:
    4,641
    Queens, NY
    Hi Fredd,

    Thanks for your post. I definitely agree with you that pain is not a definition of the person themselves. If this was true and the one who was in pain would introspect, find a character or faith flaw, transform themselves and than what? be healed????? Newsflash...we don't need doctors or any health practitioners, all we need is to be good law abiding God fearing people and we won't have any pain? - ridiculous.

    Actually, what is a tantric priest? As far as previous lives affecting us in the present, I find the subject very fascinating. I just finished reading a book about the life of Edgard Cayce who was a "sleeping prophet?". He gave readings to people while asleep about their health and what to do to recover. In addition he gave life readings which told them who they were in previous lives. There was a stenographer who recorded all his readings and now they have thousands of these cases written down and people studying them.

    I must have been trampled on my nose by a horse in a previous life! (just kidding)
  6. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,393
    Likes:
    1,556
    East Coast, USA
    I think this got completely out of control when people like Louise Hays got super-popular. They took ideas from physics and mixed them with stories of self-healing, and decided that we have control over illness/pain. The mess we're in with psychologists is a piece of this too - their insanity about how and why we create our own problems.

    When I was a psych student, lots of people still believed that schizophrenia was caused by a "Bad Mother."

    I see people all the time, taking the path of this rabbi. They take a little truth and then they dip a huge brush into it and paint their whole universe. And when you don't agree, many resort to psychobabble - you're 'resisting' or 'closed minded' or, sadly, 'not ready.'

    What's difficult for me is how terribly well-meaning it all is. In my case, my family prides itself on its tolerance, and kindness, in the face of my refusal to admit that this is all in my head. They just want my happiness, for heaven's sake! Is that so much to ask???

    It's hard when we get slammed by people we respect and trust. It's hard all over again, ever single time. And I believe that if they knew better, they wouldn't act this way......but they don't know, and won't listen, so I just don't engage.
    Wayne and Nielk like this.
  7. Dreambirdie

    Dreambirdie work in progress

    Messages:
    4,918
    Likes:
    2,973
    N. California
    Most of those New Age cult prophets (Louise Hay being one of the worst of the worst), as well as the psycho-babbler health professionals, do so much more harm than good. It's really quite shameful and disgusting how little compassion they have and how much they get away with in the name of what they call "healing."

    I traversed that landscape back in the late 70's and early 80's, when I was young, naive and desperate to find answers as to why I was so ill. It was shocking to witness how much abuse goes on in those circles. ABUSE of all kinds: verbal (both overt and covert), physical (like pushing people so far beyond their limits that they die from overheating in a sweat lodge ala James Ray), sexual coercion and impropriety, and spiritual abuse (mistreating others in the name of their concept of "god.")

    I think it's really a good idea to speak out against proponents of this kind of warped spirituality. I have never seen anything good come out of shaming people for their weaknesses, and blaming them for their illnesses. It's cruel and destructive.
    Nielk likes this.
  8. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,420
    Likes:
    749
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Madie,

    What's difficult for me is how terribly well-meaning it all is. In my case, my family prides itself on its tolerance, and kindness, in the face of my refusal to admit that this is all in my head


    This was a bone of contention for me for 40 years and especially the last 25 years. They could never admit that I was genuninely ill and certainly can't accept that I have been healed with vitamins. As far as they were concerned it was all in my head, and clearly still is since I claim vitamins did it. I had to watch as my father went into Alzheimer's dementia because he, and they, would not even consider allowing the trying of vitamins despite his multitude of symptoms and despite research indicating that at least 40% of what is diagnosed as Alzheimer's dementia is actually b12 deficiency dementia.


    When I was a psych student, lots of people still believed that schizophrenia was caused by a "Bad Mother."

    I was a psych major just before the transpersonal revolution, and the "schizophrenogenic mother" was the the big news and the cause of autism.

    Doctors were no better. Stocking/glove neuropathy was considered a clear sign of "conversion disorder" instead of distal nerve dieoff typical of b12 deficiency neuropathy. This is a theory that goes right back to Freud and others 50 years before b12 was discovered and 30 years before any vitamins were really recognized. In some medical books of the 50's the advice was to not relive pain with opioids in order to let them know the "sufferring of Christ on the cross" to better prepare the person for death. I woke up in tears every day for 20 years wishing I were dead because of the untreated pain that was treatable with opioids, and those were intentionally denied, but nothing else worked.

    And when you don't agree, many resort to psychobabble - you're 'resisting' or 'closed minded' or, sadly, 'not ready.'


    Yup, in spades, doubled and redoubled. My response to that was to learn everything I could about pain and it's treatment and got outright techincal on them. I also told them that they were being delusional if they really believed that and would explain why. They did not respond well to all that.
  9. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,420
    Likes:
    749
    Salt Lake City

    I definitely agree with you that pain is not a definition of the person themselves. If this was true and the one who was in pain would introspect, find a character or faith flaw, transform themselves and than what? be healed????


    That is what they claim, as long as they are not the one in intractable severe chronic pain. Severe enough pain can break through their belief system. My F-I-L refused to take the prescribed opioids when he was dying of cancer because he believed them to be immoral. He kept complaining to the doc of the terrible pain and finally a family member tipped off the doc as to his not taking the meds. The doctor told him that he was a fool and that he didn't have to keep suffering if he didn't want to, that it was his choice. The doctor stood right there while he took the precribed pill and in 30 minutes he was smiling and feeling ok. He contiued the dilaudid until his death. He had been condemning of me for being in chronic pain until then.


    what is a tantric priest?

    Tantra is very misunderstood. It is a spiritual practice that includes kundalini yoga (an "energy" yoga), non-dualist jnana yoga (depending upon translation knowledge, wisdom or divine wisdom yoga), healing, nutrition and mysticism. It uses the bodies energy systems including energies considered sexual and erotic. The word "Tantra" is also "weaving", as in weaving together one's life and is a method of Alchemy. A "Tantra" is a verbal or written item that is the transcript of a channeled divine conversation between Shiva and Shakti often, on esoteric and esoteric sexual matters. The "Tantric meal" of the 10th century, consumed often in a ceremonial feast or as individual practice was the acitve b12 protocol of its day in a vegetarian society. The miraculous seeming effects, allowing mystical experience, all day ritual sexual intercourse, healing and health was considered to have such power because it violated the taboos against eating flesh. In a person horribly deficient of b12 the few mcgs in the beef and fish would be enough to cause major startup effects. 1mcg of b12 can raise the serum level 200pg/ml. The 5mcg that might be in the fish and beef could increase somebody's serum level from 125 to over 1000pg/ml in 3 hours. Believe me, that is enough to cause startup in somebody that deficient. In addition the meal contained a whole grain dish with "aphrodisiac" qualities and other delightful foods suitable for a ritual feast. In effect the meal contained adb12, mb12, methylfolate, omega3 oils, b-complex and high quality proteins and so on. It was magik in it's day. Now it is nutrition technology. (Any sufficiently advanced technology looks like magic). It was one of the mainstays of healing and restoring function. In addition herbs, other special foods (high in antioxidents, etc), energy manipulation (think accupressure, massage, Kundalini) were all part of it and mystical practice guiding people to union with God.

    So perhaps from that viewpoint, consider the active b12 protocol to be spiritual practice, helping clear those things within us preventing union with God. A "Yogi" is one who is yoked to God.

    As far as previous lives affecting us in the present

    For me this is not a matter of belief. I don't do "past life regressions" as hypnotists might attempt. I get into trance with a person, feel where the blocks are and help release them. Then when the blockage breaks, I remember/re-experience the occurance with the person and they tell me about their experience of it afterwards, we get hit by sacred lightning (Shaktipat or LOVE in other terminology) and usually have a very intense cry and the influence of the past trauma is cleared. I share the entire experience with them, basically holding their hand as they walk through the valley of the shadow of death as it's put in some other terms, and release the fear. Most have a mix of current life traumas and past life traumas.

    They spontaniously report the sometimes past life nature of the experience if that is what comes up in the release. If it isn't past lfe I have no idea what it is. I have had my own experiences along those lines working with a Tantric priestess. We also had together some joint past life experiences, nothing traumatic, just everyday life experiences circa 2000 years ago or so. No way to date it exactly.

    The Edgar Cayce biography, THERE IS A RIVER, is fascinating. I have had many experiences similar to some of his but I don't do "medical readings" as such. ALso, Robert Monroe (JOURNEYS OUT OF BODY, FAR JOURNEYS and ULTIMATE JOURNEY I think they are called) all quite interesting.
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,420
    Likes:
    749
    Salt Lake City
    Hi Dreambirdie,

    Most of those New Age cult prophets (Louise Hay being one of the worst of the worst), as well as the psycho-babbler health professionals, do so much more harm than good. It's really quite shameful and disgusting how little compassion they have and how much they get away with in the name of what they call "healing."

    I don't want people to confuse me with the new-age feelgood psychobabbler type. I have to agree, they are a disgrace. They take an idea they don't understand and run with it to extremes. I know and see how people get themselves into trouble. People, between lives, as far as I can tell, get some degree of choice in how their negatives are going to manifest in life. It's not like they choose to be sick, it's more that they can place the weighting in the life that they choose to learn that which they need to learn and the problems they get to solve. So maybe one person would rather go into a life knowing that they will have health problems like cancer and another might choose a life with heart problems or a despised disease or whatever. It's not like they could choose to not have anything go wrong in their lives, they make choices as to which life path they follow. I saw 20 or more years ago that a lot of people were going to have to learn how not to be obese in a life of plenty rather than learn how to not starve to death in a life of poverty. It's not my "job" to judge anybody except myself. I had to learn to have compassion for my abusive psychotic mother. That was a tough lesson.

    This world is a consensus world, metaphysically speaking, that supports this physical and biological life. Medicine works, sort of, to the degree the researchers and doctors actually understand what is going on. Some of them have lessons about arrogance and compassion to learn.


    sexual coercion and impropriety, and spiritual abuse (mistreating others in the name of their concept of "god.")

    I very much dislike hypocrites. So those who say "I'm celebate" as part of their spiritual practice for public consumption and violate that privately is a problem. They are lying and deceiving. Sexual coercion can becomne part of the denied beahvior.

    Spiritual abuse (mistreating others in the name of their concept of "god.")

    That's an all too common a vice, sad to see.
  11. Sallysblooms

    Sallysblooms P.O.T.S. now SO MUCH BETTER!

    Messages:
    1,767
    Likes:
    324
    Southern USA
    I am sorry about your father, Fredd. My parents take great supplements and take care of themselves, open minded. That really makes me feel good to know. I am so sorry your father didn't want to explore supplements. Very sad to be ill like that.
  12. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    5,081
    Likes:
    4,641
    Queens, NY
    Hi Sally,

    It looks like you have a good support system around you which is great. Supportive family and good functional doctors make this illness much more bearable.
  13. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    5,081
    Likes:
    4,641
    Queens, NY
    I have been thinking. (again!)
    There is definitely a lot of time to think when ill with this illness. At this point, I even pretty much live in silence - even the TV is on mute because I have become
    so sensitive to noise.
    Even reading right now, is hard - my mind keeps wandering and I can't seem to focus.
    So, when I have a lot of time to just lay around and think, it's usually not a good thing. What else do I think about than my illness: the whys, hows, whens etc...

    The one epiphany that I recently had was that part of my problem is one of control. Let me explain first that I don't have a controlling type of personality.
    But, you'll see what I mean in a minute.

    I have come to Florida for 10 weeks with an agenda.

    #1- The weather is much more pleasant here than in NY and I have a place here to stay.
    #2- I usually feel better when I'm here and I was very ill when I came.
    #3- The beauty in the nature all around me here (which I can see through my closed in patio) has a very calming, healing affect on me.
    #4- Usually when I'm here, I have days that I'm strong enough to do some of my art which is so vital and healing for me.
    #5- I go to a neurofeedback practitioner here which has helped me in the past.

    My aim was to come down, relax, get stronger and with help, taper off my Klonopin which I have wanted to do for the past two years.

    Here I am, at the end of this journey and I'm flying back to NY in a WORSE shape then when I came.

    The whole time I was here, nothing worked as I wanted. When I came, I was recovering from a sinus infection and I just expected it to go away so that I
    can start with my plan. Little did I think that I am not the one who is running this world.

    I started on a few supplement - in order to build myself up in order to get into shape for the Klonopin tapering.
    A week later, I developed another staph sinus infection...and another one..then came the vertigo and when that was gone.....I developed another staph sinus infection.

    #1- I never felt better or stonger here.
    #2- I couldn't go much to the neurofeedback practitioner because I was too ill and even when I did go It didn't help.
    #3- I was not relaxed at all. I would say more edgy and depressed, since nothing was working my way.
    #4- I was never able to taper from Klonopin at all.
    #5- I am going home in a worse shape than when I came.

    I became very angry and upset at "my situation. Then I thought of God and how He is the one running the show here! I can make all the plans in the world of what I want to achieve but, at the end it's He who decides "if" and "when".
    It's not that God didn't hear me or doesn't know my needs - His answer was not now and you are not running your show. It was a humbling realization. I CANNOT CONTROL MY DESTINY!
    CJB likes this.
  14. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,393
    Likes:
    1,556
    East Coast, USA
    Nielk, have you ever read Byron Katie? She's all about how we have these story-lines that make us furious at the world for not complying with what we insist 'should be.' But rather than lecture on and on about what we do, she's got a really simple way of looking at the truth/untruth of our beliefs, and busting them.
    CJB likes this.
  15. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    5,081
    Likes:
    4,641
    Queens, NY
    But than again, there is the others who say something like "if you wish it it will come..".
    Just got this message on FB today from a friend:
  16. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,393
    Likes:
    1,556
    East Coast, USA
    I know lots of people who say that, and who "work" this idea constantly, but I've never known anyone who actually pulled it off. From my POV, this is our minds persuading us that we're in control. That if we just use our minds correctly, we can get the world to bend to our desires.

    I think my time is better spent inquiring into the nature of my mind. It's constantly running scams on me that profoundly influence my interactions. Recently I caught "My sisters are trying to turn my mother against me." I have very very good reasons to believe this. But the bottom line is, I don't know that that's true. As soon as I let go of it as "fact," I created room for other possibilities. And more importantly, for the possibility of not making up any stories at all about their behavior. I have nothing but nice things to say about my sisters when I talk with mom, and everything stays easy.
    Wayne and CJB like this.
  17. Nielk

    Nielk

    Messages:
    5,081
    Likes:
    4,641
    Queens, NY
    Maddie,

    Great advice. sometimes, we are our own worse enemies. Letting go is key with many things that "appear" a certain way and for ideas that we have of "how things should be".
    Letting go is sometimes scary because we perceive it as "loss of control" but, we never had control to begin with! It's definitely a calmer and more peaceful way to live.
    CJB and madietodd like this.
  18. Mr. Cat

    Mr. Cat Senior Member

    Messages:
    124
    Likes:
    94
    Nothern California
    I think this is the old "hope vs. acceptance" issue, where Byron Katie represents acceptance, and "Manifest your reality" theories represent hope. I think both have value. I haven't magically cured my body with my mind yet, and haven't met anyone who has, but I think it goes something like this: "Manifest your reality" thinking creates hope, which makes us feel good, and gives us some energy. This "hope energy" keeps us from giving up, and we can invest it in persuing new and existing cures, increasing the possibility that some facet of our situation will improve. The improved mood generated by hope is doubtlessly good for the immune system and the rest of the body as well. I think that hope and acceptance can be two wings of the same bird.
    ahimsa, Nielk and CJB like this.
  19. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

    Messages:
    4,420
    Likes:
    749
    Salt Lake City
    I do want to say that making effort in the direction we want to go can help. Nine years ago I was totally disabled, couldn't read a lot of the time, was falling down, and had hundreds of symptoms and was dying. Today I am fully recovered from CFS and FMS, the healthiest I've ever been in my life, physically rehabilitated and all that. I engaged in the type of spiritual work of releasing blocks that prevent the inflow of light and LOVE, other kundalini and tantric practices, found the nutritional items that reversed the various things, and was guided in much of that, but I had to do the work of learning where to find the information on the nutrients before I knew what the inspirations meant. Then I had to accept that sometimes feeling that healing felt a lot worse than numbness. Through all of it I knew there had to be a way. Dying seemed very desirable a lot of the time. It was remaining alive in abject misery that was difficult.
    CJB likes this.
  20. madietodd

    madietodd Senior Member

    Messages:
    2,393
    Likes:
    1,556
    East Coast, USA
    Yes to all of this. I can't function if I lose hope. During the hardest times, I use energy medicine techniques (Donna Eden) to prevent - how do I explain it? It's like my energetic systems unravel, and I have to work to keep them woven. This gives me focus and purpose, and the work itself is cheering.

    Because my brain gets hit so hard, spiritual practices, and techniques like Byron Katie's, are important to me. My processing gets sludgy, I turn into a hater, and things fall out of my mouth that most of me doesn't intend. If I'm not careful. So I've been dependent forever on Buddhist mind training, and now Katie's work is another tool. My core belief is that someday I will be well, and I'm willing to work hard to maintain the relationships I want to still have, at the end.

    Byron Katie is a tool I pick up because I hope for better days physically/mentally, and I can create the emotional climate of that future now, using this tool [and all the others].
    Wayne and CJB like this.

See more popular forum discussions.

Share This Page