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Sublingual B12 dissolving too fast?

Discussion in 'Detox: Methylation; B12; Glutathione; Chelation' started by PeterPositive, Jan 1, 2014.

  1. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Happy new year!
    I have been using for a while Solgar's methylcobalin "nuggets", which tastes good and seems effective.
    http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Subling...US&w=solgar b12 sublingual&rc=82&sr=null&ic=1

    I have read in Freddd's post and others that sublingual tablets should be dissolved very slowly (30-40 minutes) while Solgar's nuggets take 1 or 2 minutes max to fully vanish under the tongue.

    I am wondering if this is a real problem and why Solgar would commercialize a product that might be ineffective. Personally I don't have evidence that it's less efficacious, I have also tried other brands that take much longer to dissolve and the "reaction" to the methyl b12 was very similar for the same dosage. 1000mcg used to make me nervous and jittery when I first started, and the effect was the same regardless the product's brand.

    Now I am moving to higher dosages so I was wondering if, maybe, there's an absorption issue with fast dissolving tablets with higher dosages (2.5-5.0mg)

    What is your experience?
    Critterina likes this.
  2. Critterina

    Critterina Senior Member

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    Peter,
    I don't experience the brand-related or the dissolve-time related issues that other people do. For me, taking it in 2-3 doses during the day seems more important than either the dose or the dissolve time. My favorite brand is Natural Factors, but I also do well with the Kirkland, in spite of the artificial sweetener that I avoid in the rest of my diet. I am MTRR A66G ++, so that probably plays a part in my response.
  3. minkeygirl

    minkeygirl Senior Member

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    Stick it under your upper lip. My Integrative Therapeutics B-12 Infusion lasts a long time that way. I think this is what Freddd is currently recommending.
  4. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Thanks. Good point on taking multiple doses during the day.
    I have a similar issue with b12, I have hetero mtr and mtrr mutations. I guess someone calls that configuration the "double whammy".

    Thanks, I tried, it doesn't make any difference in the upper lip.
  5. Sparrow

    Sparrow Senior Member

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    I don't take Solgar, but I notice my sublingual tablets tend to dissolve more slowly the less I move my mouth around (though I imagine you've probably already noticed that yourself). Sometimes I also need to wait a little bit after having anything to drink, or there's too much saliva in my mouth to let them take their time dissolving.

    I do find a very large and definite difference between the effect when my pill stays completely stationary and takes a long time to dissolve, and when I accidentally move it around or need to speak or whatever and inadvertently speed up the process. I can't tell with the B12s anymore, but with my sublingual melatonin there is a huge and immediate difference, so I suspect it really does reach the bloodstream more directly the longer it's in contact with the mouth.

    If you're noticing the same reaction from fast or slow dissolving pills, it could be that it only takes a little bit to cause that response for you, or it could be that your body's ability to absorb B12 in the digestive tract is pretty good (in which case, it shouldn't matter as much for you if they dissolve).
  6. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    @PeterPositive I have tried both jarrow 5000mcg and solgar 1000mcg mb12 and I have noticed the same thing that you did. Solgar is being dissolved faster even if i stick it under my lip. I am about to try the 5000mcg mb12 solgar product now to see if it will happen the same. But it probably does. I as well wonder if there are absorbtion issues on the higher doses. Solgar 1000mcg seems to be effective until now.
  7. mabelark

    mabelark

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    Solgar 5000mcg b12 takes a lot longer to dissolve (placed in the "pocket" on the right/left of the upper lip) than the 1000mcg. However, even the 5000mcg will tend to clump up and turn to goo after a while (making it hard to move around) and then just sort of vanish. (The same is very much true for Natural Factors 5000 mcg b12.) The enzymatic therapy 1000 mcg is far superior in this regard, since it stays solid for the whole duration and dissolves very slowly. Only problem with the enzymaticis that it contains a sweetener which annoys your gum. I always use a fluoride chewing gum to try and mitigate this, as I have quite poor dental health already.

    How I wish there was a b12 like the encymatic but without sweetener and in 5000 mcg form.
    zzz0r likes this.
  8. ahmo

    ahmo Senior Member

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    Amen to that! Fortunately, as reluctant as I was to begin the ET with its sweetener, it's been working a treat for me. I'm only using 6/day, do them 2 at a time.
  9. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Yes. I noticed the same. When I put it under the tongue it's much better is I don't move it around, don't speak etc...

    Good to know, I will look into that as well, although I don't like those sweeteners too much either.

    thanks
  10. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi PeterPositive,


    To start with, when I was hypersensitive to MeCbl, I could start feeling the initial onset of Enzymatic Therapy MeCbl in 5-10 minutes. The effect kept increasing as long as the tablet remained against the oral mucosa. If I spit it out in 10 minutes, the increase stopped in less than 5 minutes following that. If 45 ,minutes later, same thing, stopped in 5 minutes or less after removal. If 2 hours, increase as long as present until it just went away, then prompt cessation of increase. The quick dissolvers increased effect as long as it was there against the skin. If they didn't last 5 minutes, they didn't do a thing. It wasn't till later that I learned about the upper lip from an EMT.

    I did a series of visual colorimetry tests comparing sublingual to injection. With that I was able to very close establish equivalence of absorbed dose. With the ENZY the rate of absorption was approximately 3% per 5 minutes for the first 45 minutes, falling to 2% per 5 minutes for the next 75 minutes. The 5mg tablets absorbed at the same percentage from the same area so absorption rate was also influenced by concentration Two tablets absorbed twice as much as 1 tablet. Smaller tablets appeared to be less efficient than larger tablets. The amount absorbed appears proportional to area, to at least some degree. Percentage absorbed by equal sized tablets appeared to be at about the same rate across multiple brands of the same concentration. The Anabol capsule emptied along the most of the lower dental arch appeared to be proportional to the area and the time. A thin layer though it didn't last as long appeared to be just as well absorbed as a thicker smaller area for longer
    I ran a large series of absorption tests, thousands of repetitions of both sublingual and injection. Basically within a given physical and dosage size of tablet, the rate was reasonably consistent. At 45 minutes the rate of absorption was about 10-20%, averaging about 15%. At 2 hours, the rate was about 20-33% and typically about 25%. So 10 mg of 1mg tablets could absorb a visible in urine amount that matched an injection of 2.5mg and also by the effect. This was also matched by a dose of two 5mg tablets. This was all done while taking folic acid. Now it takes far more to be visible in my urine as I no longer have paradoxical folate deficiency. The effect was obvious with the first Metafolin tablet even though not out of insufficiency.


    So, folate sufficiency influences serum halflife of B12 and may be a reliable test of folate status. However, it is unknown how this spread varies across people.

    1. With glutathione (methylblock) - < 0.5mg injected/absorbed visible
    2. With folinic acid - 1.5mg
    3. With folic acid - 2.5mg
    4. With 400mcg of Metafolin and folic acid and folate insufficiency evident, 4.4mg injected visible
    5. with 15mg of Metafolin and periodic insufficiency evident, 7 mg injected visible
    6. with 8mg of Metafolin and no trace of insufficiency evident, 20mg injected visible
    All of these were also duplicated with sublingual doses with similar results.

    However, I also found 1mg of Enzy to be more effective than any amount of any other brand other than Jarrow of that period. There is a qualitative aspect to various brands that is not reflected by absorption, especially CNS effectiveness.
  11. PeterPositive

    PeterPositive Senior Member

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    Hi Freddd,
    thanks for the detailed information. If I understand correctly your list folinic acid is worst than folic acid in terms of B12 absorption? Didn't expect that.
  12. knackers323

    knackers323 Senior Member

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    Yep I think we need to find something without sweetener if we are going to do this long term. I have just started and every time I take the b12s my teeth hurt. Keeping them in the mouth for hours every day would have to be bad for our teeth.
  13. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi PeterPositive,

    It sure surprised me too. I don't have any idea of what percentage of people here might have folinic acid problems. What I found in myself is that folic acid appears to block about 10x as much methylfolate by the amount needed to overcome it's effect and folinic acid up to 20x as much requiring a lot more methylfolate to overcome it.

    I found this by seeing so many people suffering "detox" from folinic acid differently and worked through the problem including trying folinic acid myself. It made me sick very quickly and it 800mcg a day of folinic acid moved my Metafolin need to 20+ mg and still unable to stay out of paradoxical folate deficiency half the time. As soon as I dropped the folinic acid 4-8 mg was enough after a 3 day wash out. I had the same effect from veggie extract 800mcg folate and to a lesser extent 800mcg of folic acid.
  14. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi PeterPositive,

    It sure surprised me too. I don't have any idea of what percentage of people here might have folinic acid problems. What I found in myself is that folic acid appears to block about 10x as much methylfolate by the amount needed to overcome it's effect and folinic acid up to 20x as much requiring a lot more methylfolate to overcome it.

    I found this by seeing so many people suffering "detox" from folinic acid differently and worked through the problem including trying folinic acid myself. It made me sick very quickly and it 800mcg a day of folinic acid moved my Metafolin need to 20+ mg and still unable to stay out of paradoxical folate deficiency half the time. As soon as I dropped the folinic acid 4-8 mg was enough after a 3 day wash out. I had the same effect from veggie extract 800mcg folate and to a lesser extent 800mcg of folic acid.
  15. Freddd

    Freddd Senior Member

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    Hi Knackers,

    Things can hurt without damaging the teeth. This quick effect can be prevented with Sensidyne toothpaste that blocks the tubules that are under the level of the enamel. Perhaps it does damage but erosion and decay are not painful until they are deep which takes months to years. This happens in minutes to hours to lots of people for lots of reasons. That is why there are toothpastes for people with this happening. This is what my dentist told me. Also the nerves become more sensitive within hours as the nerves wake up with MeCbl.

    I'd be dead years ago if I had let some tooth pain stop me.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2014
  16. zzz0r

    zzz0r Senior Member

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    so I guess we should put our efforts in finding why folic and folinic acid has that kind of blockage to our systems.... because it seems that is doing the same to me

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