Sublingual Armour and B12 dosing

[Al Klein]

I suffer from lethargy/fatigue but have never had a CFS/ME diagnosis

I have taken Armour and/or T3 for Hashimotos for past 15 years, but have been fatigued / brain fogged slowly increasing over past 5 years.

Doctors in the UK not able to help - they think I should have been happy taking Levothyroxine

I have used the internet and had private blood tests done to try and understand what is going on. I believe that Iron and adrenals are now in a good place. thyroid results show upper range FT3, lower range FT4 (on only 2 grains plus extra T3 so as expected). B12 was the next suspect (but no B12 test done - blame the fog!)

I have now for 10 days been taking Jarrow methyl 500 and I definitely notice the difference, Had anit-parietal antibodies 10 years ago, so I guess they have been doing their job and I am now struggling to produce instrinsic factor.

I believe that both B12 and Armour benefit from being taken first thing, sublingually and waiting about an hour before eating.

has anyone come across anything against using thyroid meds and B12 at the same time? Or have any other advice for me?

A vitamin D test will happen next week.

Thanks
Al

 

[Lynn_M]

I have best results splitting my Naturethroid thyroid doses, taking 1 grain sublingually first thing in the morning, and the 2nd grain sublingually in mid-afternoon. This is to even out the impact of the T3 in Naturethroid, because it has a short half-life. This would apply to Armour too. You don't say when you take your extra T3, but I hope you're taking it in the afternoon so you're leveling out the T3 effects throughout the day.

Armour changed its formulation a few years ago and many thyroid patients find it's no longer doing the job for them because it's now harder to absorb. You're probably doing okay with your sublingual dose. Your FT3 levels should be in the upper quartile to be optimal. A lower range FT4/higher range FT3 combo may indicate that you need iodine.

I take my afternoon thyroid dose together with my Jarrow 1mg mB12, both sublingually. I have the same question you do, if there's any reason not to do that.

If you have anti-parietal antibodies, I suspect you'll need a lot more than 500 mg mB12, and if so, it's optimal to dose throughout the day.

 

[pela]

My health deteriorated rapidly when Armour changed it's formulation. Apparently the cellulose interfers with absorption. Al, Armour could be one cause of your problems.

Taking B12/folate has made a huge difference for me in my ability to convert T4 to T3.

Do you both know that Jarrow changed it's formula and is no longer very effective? Try Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion instead.

 

[Lynn_M]

Pela,
Do you think someone's FT3 level would be an indication of how well his body able to use Armour? Al said his FT3 is in the upper range. If it's in the upper third or quartile, I would think his sublingual method is a satisfactory way to deal with the absorption challenges from Armour's change in cellulose formulation.

Yeah, I know about Jarrow's change. But I had bought about 4 new bottles of Jarrow from a friend (did her a favor) before I read about the dissatisfaction with Jarrow. I'm not willing to throw them out. When I use them up, then I'll switch to whatever is in favor at that time. Has anyone suggested how much less effective the Jarrow mB12 is now?

 

[Al Klein]

Oops Jarrow 5000! Even if it isn't as efficient as before it is providing good results for me after 10days! Will stick with it

What about mixing the thyroid and b12 sublinguallly in the am? As it seems to be working the I assume no contraindications?

I spli my NDT /T3 up into 4 doses.

Is it worth splitting the Jarrow 5000 or just supplement with a spray as well if I feel the need. For my busiest days (Monday and Tuesday) when I have very little available time between 8 and 4 I am contemplating using patches!

 

[Lynn_M]

I too think taking mB12 and mfolate has increased my body's ability to effectively use my thyroid hormone.

I had taken ineffective forms of mB12 and no folate since 2008. I found out a year ago that I'm MTHFR A1298C++ and started diligently taking 1 mg sublingual Jarrow mB12, 800 mcg Metafolin, and a DMG/folinic acid/choline/B12 complex. Since then I have needed to reduce my Naturethroid dose from 2.5 grains to 1.5 grains.

 

[Lynn_M]

Al,
Freddd wrote somewhere at PR that the half-life of mB12 is 3 hours. So I would think you would definitely benefit from splitting up your Jarrow mB12 5000 mcg dose.

I also don't think Freddd would consider a mB12 spray to be effective, since the time mB12 is in contact with the oral mucosa determines how much is absorbed.

 

[EastWest]

In terms of evaluating the thyroid dose, my doc checks my reflexes (knee, ankle). They should be sharp but not hyper responses. That indicates good peripheral dose.

I also went majorly downhill after the Armour reformulation, and am now doing very well on the Accela formulation since Naturethroid is not available in my State anymore.

I have not read anything contraindicating taking them together. However, it may be helpful to take your folate first and then awhile later take your B12. B12 is needed for good thyroid function but we are talking about thyroid replacement here. If I were to choose, I would say we need the B12 on board before the thyroid.

 

[Lynn_M]

I just watched some of this webinair: Concepts in the Diagnosis and Treatment of Hypothyroidism with Kent Holtorf, M.D. It's a 3-part series and each part lasts around 60 minutes. http://nahypothyroidism.org/thyroid-webinar/ I believe the target audience was doctors, and Dr. Holtorf presented a lot of new information I had never seen before. I thought it was very informative and recommend watching it to anyone wanting in depth thyroid knowledge.

At 7:00 of the second part, he says that each of the thyroid hormones requires a transporter to get that particular hormone into the cell. In any condition of reduced energy, e.g. mitochondrial dysfunction, chronic inflammation or infection, diabetes, the transporter can't get the hormone into the cell. Furthermore, the T4 transporter is much more energy dependent than the T3 transporter.

So that might well be the explanation for why people can have a T3 that is much higher in its range percentile than the T4.

 

[Creekee]

Al, have you been able to have reverse T3 tested? That set me back for a bit!

Warm wishes,
Creekee

 

[Al Klein]

5 years ago I had reverse t3 checked and yes it was high, spent a year on T3 only supplementing iron then 6 months on armour/t3 and reverse t3dropped ( but I was taking less t4 overall in any case)

I felt OK on t3 only and when I re-introduced the armour but have felt better in the past 10 days since adding the b12 than in the previous 5 years.

Now I believe that the lack of B12 has Been gradually having an effect over past 5 years and 5 years ago if I had started b12 as well is iron my reverse t3 issue might have got sorted

I am going to continue with am NDT /B12 as this seems to be working and try and find a time to fit in extra B12 later in the day. But all this 1 hour before / 4 hours after is very confusing to work out how to time everything!

Thanks for all the replies!